Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah

[q_q_]

q_q_,

Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?

What's that got to do with kabbalah?   It's not some mystical warlord with a fancy hat that will do that, but Hashem Himself will resurrect the dead.   Yes, this is a principle of our faith.

Next....

Indeed.  I will send you a thing in PM.. because the torah section here has just become a ridiculous mess.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

q_q_,

Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?

What's that got to do with kabbalah?   It's not some mystical warlord with a fancy hat that will do that, but Hashem Himself will resurrect the dead.   Yes, this is a principle of our faith.

Next....

Indeed.  I will send you a thing in PM.. because the torah section here has just become a ridiculous mess.

Im taking a class on Rambam (today was the first day), the professor (is Israeli and has a Kippa on) said that in Yemen and Bavel their were big debate over his (Rambam's) beliefs, expecially over the ressurection of the dead.
   I then said- but isn't it one of the 13 principles of the Rambam, and he said yes, but it's not soo simple (or something like that) and to read it inside.

[q_q_]

q_q_,

Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?

What's that got to do with kabbalah?   It's not some mystical warlord with a fancy hat that will do that, but Hashem Himself will resurrect the dead.   Yes, this is a principle of our faith.

Next....

Indeed.  I will send you a thing in PM.. because the torah section here has just become a ridiculous mess.

Im taking a class on Rambam (today was the first day), the professor (is Israeli and has a Kippa on) said that in Yemen and Bavel their were big debate over his (Rambam's) beliefs, expecially over the ressurection of the dead.
   I then said- but isn't it one of the 13 principles of the Rambam, and he said yes, but it's not soo simple (or something like that) and to read it inside.

There is a discussion there, but it's nothing to do with kabbalah..
As KahaneBT said, Hashem will do it.

But the issue  I think they are getting at is, the RAMBAM said something like not to expect a miraculous  messianic era.

I would say that perhaps the RAMBAM, when he speaks of a resurrection of the dead, means that it will appear naturally.. e.g. souls of the dead will return. Not literally dry bones rising up, i.e. the books of prophets were just being poetic.. but describing something that would happen. (just my speculation, I haven't seen everything he has written so it may well be wrong)

There's a similar thing with all disease ending.. That's a miracle right?
Well, how can it happen naturally.
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan writes in handbook of jewish thought, (get those 2 volumes, or just vol 1)
that this can happen naturally.. by a medical or technological breakthrough.
Remember that medically, death occurs from organ failure (perhaps only organ failure.. but failure of the body).

[Sefardic Panther]

republicandox did your Grandfather do practical Kabbalah? Could he make amulets, heal the sick or do exorcisms?

[GoIsraelGo!]

republicandox did your Grandfather do practical Kabbalah? Could he make amulets, heal the sick or do exorcisms?

My Grandfather died before I was born. I do not know all the details except for what my Mom told me about her Father.
She told me ( quote ) your Grandfather was an expert in kabbalah....she also told me that her Father told her it was dangerous.
This is as much as I know.


                                                                     Shalom - Dox

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

q_q_,

Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?

What's that got to do with kabbalah?   It's not some mystical warlord with a fancy hat that will do that, but Hashem Himself will resurrect the dead.   Yes, this is a principle of our faith.

Next....

Indeed.  I will send you a thing in PM.. because the torah section here has just become a ridiculous mess.

Im taking a class on Rambam (today was the first day), the professor (is Israeli and has a Kippa on) said that in Yemen and Bavel their were big debate over his (Rambam's) beliefs, expecially over the ressurection of the dead.
   I then said- but isn't it one of the 13 principles of the Rambam, and he said yes, but it's not soo simple (or something like that) and to read it inside.

Yes, what you said is true.  There was in fact a controversy over his belief about the resurrection of the dead.   I've been reading it in the Rambam's letters...   But be aware that what you said here in no way vindicates the original statement by one who is apparently trying to relate this idea to kabalah.

There were also many ignorant people in Rambam's day who were obsessed with kavod and they slandered the Rambam incessantly, misconstrued his opinions, misrepresented him, and/or totally misunderstood him in order that people should be discouraged from reading him.   Much of the controversy was based on that.   And I mean really ignorant, supposed "scholars" of the day who despised him but could not refute.

[Kerber]

...
It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10�.
 ...

I don't want to interfere and argue about Kabbalah(which I consider as occultism),but I'll have to comment this.
The remark of "3 gods" you can put to Vatican's theology and their apologetic only(or Hashem's Witnesses).

PS
I haven't wrote "Hashem's",but different word started with "J".

[muman613]

...
It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10�.
 ...

I don't want to interfere and argue about Kabbalah(which I consider as occultism),but I'll have to comment this.
The remark of "3 gods" you can put to Vatican's theology and their apologetic only(or Hashem's Witnesses).

PS
I haven't wrote "Hashem's",but different word started with "J".

Kerber, you do not understand Kabbalah... In Kabbalah we do not have 10 individual dieties. It is a hard to explain concept of many components which are all Hashem, but interface with this world in different ways. Kabbalah is not polytheism at all.

[Kerber]

...
It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10�.
 ...

I don't want to interfere and argue about Kabbalah(which I consider as occultism),but I'll have to comment this.
The remark of "3 gods" you can put to Vatican's theology and their apologetic only(or Hashem's Witnesses).

PS
I haven't wrote "Hashem's",but different word started with "J".

Kerber, you do not understand Kabbalah... In Kabbalah we do not have 10 individual dieties. It is a hard to explain concept of many components which are all Hashem, but interface with this world in different ways. Kabbalah is not polytheism at all.

I know it's not polytheism,but I can't see the need to create a mystification of G-d's words and then a hole new philosophy as a tool for an explanations or demystification.

For example,what should be demystified in Moses' Books?That's written for uneducated Jewish shepherds so they can understand simple words and simple messages from G-d.

[muman613]

...
It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10�.
 ...

I don't want to interfere and argue about Kabbalah(which I consider as occultism),but I'll have to comment this.
The remark of "3 gods" you can put to Vatican's theology and their apologetic only(or Hashem's Witnesses).

PS
I haven't wrote "Hashem's",but different word started with "J".

Kerber, you do not understand Kabbalah... In Kabbalah we do not have 10 individual dieties. It is a hard to explain concept of many components which are all Hashem, but interface with this world in different ways. Kabbalah is not polytheism at all.

I know it's not polytheism,but I can't see the need to create a mystification of G-d's words and then a hole new philosophy as a tool for an explanations or demystification.

For example,what should be demystified in Moses' Books?That's written for uneducated Jewish shepherds so they can understand simple words and simple messages from G-d.

You must realize that the ideas of Torah existed before Moshe wrote them down and the ideas of Kabbalah are passed down from the days of Father Avraham. The written Torah is only part of the treasure we received at Sinai. The Talmud and the Midrash go into much further detail than the very terse and very deep Torah. There are several levels of meaning in Torah which are referred to as PaRDeS. This stands for Pshat {simple meaning}, Remes {Hint} , Drash {Moral/Philosophical interpretation}, and Sod {Hidden meaning, usually Kabbalah}.

This information is available from http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/163/Q2/

Brian Levitan wrote:

    Could you please give a simple explanation with examples, of the levels of textual interpretation, referred to as PARDES. ( Pshat, Remez, Drush, Sod.)

Dear Brian Levitan,

Let's take the first verse of the Torah as our example:

1. Pshat - simplest meaning, based on the text and context. Rashi explains that pshat of the verse as follows: "In the beginning of God's creation of the heaven and the earth, the earth was desolate and void." This is based on a linguistic analysis of the word "Bereshit," which does not mean "In the beginning", but "In the beginning of..."

2. Remez - "hint." The Gaon of Vilna taught that all commands of the Torah are hinted at in the first word of the Torah. For instance, Pidyon Haben - redemption of the first-born - is alluded to by an acronym of the letters of Bereshit, which spell "ben rishon acharei shloshim yom tifdeh" - the first son you shall redeem after thirty days.

3. Drush - contextual and non-contextual, moral and philosophical explanations. Rashi states that there is a philosophical idea alluded to in the word "Bereshit." The world was created for the sake of Torah which is called "reshit," and for the Jewish people who are also referred to as "reshit." Both are "firsts" in terms of their centrality in the purpose of Creation.

4. Sod - hidden or secret meaning. Mishna: "The world was created with ten statements." Gemara: "But when you count them there are only nine statements! Bereshit (In the beginning) is also a statement." The statement of "Bereshit" was the creation of time, which is a dimension of the physical world. One of the names of G-d is "Hamakom" - "The Place" - as the Midrash explains that "He is the place of the world, the world is not His place." This concept is based on the idea that the physical world would not exist if not for G-d willing it to exist at every moment. Therefore G-d is the "Place" of the world, meaning the framework of reality in which everything exists, and He provides the possibility of existence to all of Creation. The dimension of Time and the laws of nature were created during the six days of Creation. The Sforno, The Gaon of Vilna, the Maharal, and Maimonides, all basing themselves on the Talmud, state that the hidden meaning of the word "In the Beginning" - Bereshit - is the creation of what we today call "the space-time continuum."

Sources:

    * Ethics of the Fathers 5:1; Babylonian Talmud Tractate Megillah 21b
    * Gaon of Vilna in Aderet Eliyahu, Bereshit 1:1; Maharal of Prague
    * Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin, Nefesh Hachaim
    * Maimonides, Guide for the Perplexed 2:30 (13th Century)

[Lubab]

[/quote]
I know it's not polytheism,but I can't see the need to create a mystification of G-d's words and then a hole new philosophy as a tool for an explanations or demystification.

For example,what should be demystified in Moses' Books?That's written for uneducated Jewish shepherds so they can understand simple words and simple messages from G-d.
[/quote]

The Torah has many layers of meaning. Infinite layers, actually. That is why it can be appreciated by everyone from the most simple novice to the expert kabbalist. There is no NEED to mystify the Torah. By its very definition, the deeper level of the Torah are more difficult to grasp. A very deep concept usually cannot explained directly. It needs to be explained by way of analogy e.g. using two oranges (a simple analogy) to demonstrate a deeper concept (e.g. addition or subtraction). Kabbalah is similarly written with analogies because the concepts are quite a bit too deep to explain directly.