Chief Rabbinate of Israel cuts ties with Vatican over Holocaust bishop

[Ben Yehuda]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5604019.ece

[zachor_ve_kavod]

It's unfortunate because Jews and Christians should be allies in these times.  But the Rabbinate can't overlook this.  I think the Pope is making a mistake and I don't really understand the logic behind it.  It's fine if he wants to bring straying Christians back to Catholicism, but if the only way to do that is to affirm this bishop, the Pope should pass.

[q_q_]

the vatican is a bad influence on israel..

A story publicised by chamish,  referencing some italian paper.  Was that shimon peres sent a letter to the pope saying he will hand over jeusalem by the year 2000.  This leaked out, and  caused an uproar and and Peres said that he had written he will NOT hand over jeusalem... and somebody blotted out the word "not"!!   I doubt peres.. But even if it was true.. the vatican wants jerusalem.. Assuming chamish was true to his source.. chamish isn't reliable, but he did give a source and wasn't giving a conspiracy on it.. That was just the story allegedly in there.

I am not sure what affect this will have on roman catholics.. one wonders what motivates any of them to be pro israel.. Maybe "he who blesses israel will be blessed".  The pope hasn't said to cut ties.. so maybe it won't damage the relationship between israel loving roman catholics, and israel.
 

[syyuge]

I hope the things are certainly not related to Malachy.

[muman613]

I hope the things are certainly not related to Malachy.

What do you mean by this? What is Malachy?

[syyuge]

I hope the things are certainly not related to Malachy.

What do you mean by this? What is Malachy?

If you want to know, you may please go to google. However please beware it is not Jewish.

[Ulli]

I hope the things are certainly not related to Malachy.

What do you mean by this? What is Malachy?

If you want to know, you may please go to google. However please beware it is not Jewish.

I have googled it, because I thought you meant the Jewish prophet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Malachi

But Malachy is a different story. 

[mord]

http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

It's unfortunate because Jews and Christians should be allies in these times.  But the Rabbinate can't overlook this.  I think the Pope is making a mistake and I don't really understand the logic behind it.  It's fine if he wants to bring straying Christians back to Catholicism, but if the only way to do that is to affirm this bishop, the Pope should pass.

Jews need not have to depend on the Vatican, Hashem will always help and protect the Land of Judah.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Good, we dont need them, nor should the Rabbanut be associated with them.

[Marco469]

Not to say that the Jews don't have a right to be angry, they do but let's put this in perspective. Those 4 Bishops were excommunitacted because the ordination was INVALID, in order to become a Bishop you need papal approval and the consecretion is a religious ritual performed by the Pope and or a higher ranking cleric. By lifting the excommunication ban that does not make their invalid consecretion valid, they are not Bishops and they never were.

This group is the Vatican's next victom, they have not been absorbed yet by the Holy See all of them are pretty much suspended until the Vatican gobbles up whatever is left of SSPX.

Vatican and the Pope, and the government of the Holy See don't share his views, he's been told to shut up. Catholics and Catholicism is not just a religion, we are a Nation of people (Saints and Sinners), being an antisemite, a theif, a lier does not make someone any less of a Catholic, in other words a bad Catholic is still a Catholic unless he either excommunicates himself or the Church does it for him.


Jewish groups need to learn a bit more about Catholicism before screaming
bloody murder, Vatican II is not a one page document you can't just pull out one sentance out of it and make the entire Vatican II about the Jews and the Catholics. Vatican II is about Catholics, other catholic rites, shismastic catholics and Eastern Orthodox; Our unity will always be a priority over Catholic relations with Jews, Protestants and Muslims. Plus Catholicism as a whole is a centralized religion with a leader, Protestants have 30,000 sects, Jews have a quite a few as well and they disagree with each other on almost everyhting and every issue, Muslims have their own problems. Before Jews, Protestants and Muslims step to the table with us it's important for them to collectively reach an understanding between each other first, in other words don't change your standards if you gonna apply those same ridiculous standards on us Catholics.


There's a great deal of misunderstanding, and it seems that people as a whole who scream for more dialogue with us Catholics better start paying attention. Certain Jewish groups, Muslim and protestant groups at the moment don't have the right to come and demand anything from us; the Chief Rabbinate braking ties with the Vatican is a perfect example of acting childish as is the ADL, groups like this need to wake up and realize that the dialogue is not a one way streak.

We Catholics as a whole extended a hand, I think it's time for people to wake up and make up their minds already; you either want a relationship or you don't time to decide before we make that decision for you.

BTW Catholics don't have a problem with Jews living in Israel, Jewish People deserve a state just like any other ethnicity; but realize that Catholicism is not Protestanism having Jews in Israel or out of Israel does not effect us as a Religion. Please don't pay attention to Barry Chamish, this guy is a conspiracy theorist; we do not seek the destruction of the state of Israel what we seek is peace for the Catholics living in the Holy Land and our legitimate rights concearning our religious sites. There are not that many Christians left in the Holy Land, before the establishment of the State of Israel 35% of the population was Christian now it's less then 2%. Israel and Jewish people have a moral responsibility, if you want relations with us and our support then you will fix this problem.  Granted as much as you Jews despise and hate us Catholics remember who hid you inside Churchers, Seminaries, our homes; Germany declared itself protestant 500 years ago and Europe as a whole lost is Catholic roots and accepted the evil of fascism, nazism, communism, atheism, liberlism.

Time for the Jews to wake up and realize that the world is not Black and white, as bad as we Catholics might seem to you we are not Barbariens, it is because of our strength that we have been able to forge the only Empire that managed to survive the Dark Ages, preserve western civilization and culture, as well as stand toe to toe with the Islamic Caliphes for a thousand years.

[P J C]

The Vatican is doing some questionable things as of late, and as a catholic I can criticize.

[muman613]

Not to say that the Jews don't have a right to be angry, they do but let's put this in perspective. Those 4 Bishops were excommunitacted because the ordination was INVALID, in order to become a Bishop you need papal approval and the consecretion is a religious ritual performed by the Pope and or a higher ranking cleric. By lifting the excommunication ban that does not make their invalid consecretion valid, they are not Bishops and they never were.

<snip>

Quit making excuses for a system which is is broken. The RCC has a lot of blood on its hands and should be asking for forgiveness. If you think the Jews owe the RCC anything you are very much mistaken. Please point to one episode which the Jews did wrong to the RCC? The Jews were persecuted for many years by a tyrannical and blood-thirsty church. There are no excuses...

There's a great deal of misunderstanding, and it seems that people as a whole who scream for more dialogue with us Catholics better start paying attention. Certain Jewish groups, Muslim and protestant groups at the moment don't have the right to come and demand anything from us; the Chief Rabbinate braking ties with the Vatican is a perfect example of acting childish as is the ADL, groups like this need to wake up and realize that the dialogue is not a one way streak.

So who do you think has a 'right' to demand something from you? How about G-d himself?

Vatican and the Pope, and the government of the Holy See don't share his views, he's been told to shut up. Catholics and Catholicism is not just a religion, we are a Nation of people (Saints and Sinners), being an antisemite, a theif, a lier does not make someone any less of a Catholic, in other words a bad Catholic is still a Catholic unless he either excommunicates himself or the Church does it for him.

Sounds like the Jewish nation to me... Maybe you haven't heard that the Children of Israel are also referred to as the AM YISROEL {Nation of Israel}. Also all Jews are Jews regardless of affiliation.

Please ask your priests and Bishops to petition the Pope to excommunicate these wicked Bishops from the church. Who would want someone as evil as these in their congregation?

PS: Thanks so much for the Dark Ages...

[Rubystars]

Unfortunately I don't think there was any other choice he could have made. I think he had to cut ties.

[Marco469]

The Vatican is doing some questionable things as of late, and as a catholic I can criticize.


No one says you can't, I criticize them all the time on various issues but  when it comes to Catholic Unity that to us has to be a priority; our dialogue with other groups such as the Muslims, Protestants, Jews, Atheists etc is an entirely different topic and is part of Vatican II but not the primary Issue.

Plus we are Catholics after all whether we like it or not, the Pope is the Pope reguardless whether you or me agree with him 100%, this is how it works and this is not something that can be changed and or argued without the Pope we will fall apart and be just another religion or a Catholic sect arguing with 30,000 other catholic sects about who should be in charge.

Don't worry, you know the media they are afraid of us more then they are afraid of Fanatical Muslims; they flip out every single time a sect is gobbled up by the Vatican eventually we will unite all Orthodox Christianity.

[Lisa]

Marco, this is first and foremost, a Jewish forum.  Therefore, we have every right to write what we think of the Pope unbanning (or whatever you want to call it) a Holocaust denying priest who said that Hitler freed the Germans from the Jews, among other things.  

Also, how dare you come here and blame the dwindling Christian population in Israel on the Jews!  The last time I checked, Bethlehem was Arab occupied territory.  So why not just save your pontificating for friends, the moosies?  

And finally, we at JTF don't discriminate against other religions.  We will hate and oppose any religious group that wishes up harm!  

[Moshe92]

Marco469, why do you think that Jews hate Catholics? Also, why are you siding with Muslims over Jews? You should learn more about the truth about Islam.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

                                                                                                                                                                  בס''ד

Marco, you are an arrogant theological anti-Semite. How dare you come on this forum and state:

"Granted as much as you Jews despise and hate us Catholics remember who hid you inside Churchers, Seminaries, our homes; Germany declared itself protestant 500 years ago and Europe as a whole lost is Catholic roots and accepted the evil of fascism, nazism, communism, atheism, liberlism."

The Catholic Church hid Jews during the holocaust? Except for a tiny handful, almost all Catholic clergy in Europe cooperated fully in the extermination of 6 million Jewish men, women and children.

*The Vatican maintained full diplomatic relations with Nazi Germany until the last day of the war. The Pope and the Vatican thereby granted diplomatic, political and moral legitimacy to Hitler and his monstrous regime. The Catholic influence in the nations that murdered 6 million innocent Jews was overwhelming: Germany was one third Catholic, Austria was 95% Catholic, Poland was 90% Catholic and so on. If the Pope and the Vatican had demanded an immediate end to the murder of millions of innocent Jews, and had demanded that Catholics not cooperate in the mass murder, the holocaust would not have taken place. Instead, the Pope and the Vatican intentionally helped the Nazis carry out the holocaust by bestowing moral legitimacy on the Satanic Hitlerite regime.

*The same Vatican that maintained full diplomatic relations with Nazi Germany throughout the holocaust refused to establish diplomatic relations with tiny Israel from 1948 to 1994. Nazi Germany had more legitimacy in the eyes of the Vatican than tiny Israel.

*The Pope and the Vatican excommunicated numerous Catholics throughout history for disagreeing with Church dogma. In fact, the Church ordered the inquisitions in which many people were tortured to death for daring not to accept some aspect of Church teaching. Thousands of Jewish men, women and children were burned alive on stakes for refusing to convert to Catholicism. Some 250,000 Jewish men, women and children were butchered in the Church-ordered crusades.

*But the same Vatican has to this day refused to excommunicate Adolf Hitler and the other Nazi monsters who murdered 6 million Jews and millions of non-Jews. Neither Hitler nor any other Nazi beast has ever been excommunicated for committing the most atrocious crimes in human history. Hitler and the other Nazi monsters are all still listed in the Catholic Church's baptismal records as members of the church. This is the same church which brutally tortured Galileo for saying that the earth revolves around the sun. But Hitler they will not excommunicate.

JTF respects and honors its Catholic members. Catholics and Jews do have common enemies: Islam and the "secular humanist" left.

But if you are going to come on this forum attacking the Jewish people after 2000 years of murdering, torturing and forcibly converting Jews, you will get the appropriate response.

[DownwithIslam]

We have to remember that true evangelical Christians like John Hagee attack the Catholic church and the vatican as well. Of course jews and righteous Gentiles have to work together so it's a shame that the vatican has been so hostile to Israel.

[Marco469]

Quit making excuses for a system which is is broken. The RCC has a lot of blood on its hands and should be asking for forgiveness. If you think the Jews owe the RCC anything you are very much mistaken. Please point to one episode which the Jews did wrong to the RCC? The Jews were persecuted for many years by a tyrannical and blood-thirsty church. There are no excuses...

System aint broken if it was broken Catholicism would be just another religion, we
have laws and a leader just like any other nation. As for Forgiveness, the Sons of God don't need to ask for permission from mere mortals on how and when they should act; we act in unity as a nation for our interest when we have to. Also Jewish people along with the Romans damn near killed all of us, plus don't forget that Jews fought with the Muslims against Catholics during the Crusades. We declared the Cursades close to 11th century, after giving Islam and Muslims time for dialogue as we usually do with everyone else.

Like I said and this is the problem Jews, Muslims and Protestants are not unified; but reguardless of that we don't care it's not our problem; you have to decide if you want a relationship or not; were not going to force anyone either way but we will always act in our interest. Jews, Protestants and Muslims need to wake up, you can't have it both ways either you want dialogue or you dont pick one.

Sounds like the Jewish nation to me... Maybe you haven't heard that the Children of Israel are also referred to as the AM YISROEL {Nation of Israel}. Also all Jews are Jews regardless of affiliation.

Please ask your priests and Bishops to petition the Pope to excommunicate these wicked Bishops from the church. Who would want someone as evil as these in their congregation?

I am I a Jew? No, did I say I am; our religion is different and there's a great deal of theology associated with it.

We are the Sons of God, God's legitimate offspring; Jews and Muslims deny the Father and you don't call yourself the Sons of God (an entirely different theology); God created the Universe including the earth and everything in it this inheritance will pass down to us from Father to Son; this inheritance does not pass down to microbes. But reguardless that does not mean that we don't mind sharing, I have no problem with Jews and Muslims living in the Holy Land even though by letter of the Law the universe itself is our play ground.

Also they're not Bishops, like I said you need valid consecretion in order to become a Bishop. And Catholics can't get excommunicated just because Jews don't like what 1 catholic says, an [censored] Catholic is still a catholic reguardless of him being an [censored] or not.

Also it's not like we are demanding for Jews to change their religion we don't care, and we don't demand Jewish Sects to change their religious views; (Protestants and Muslims bug you more then we do) because of this Jews need to get their heads screwed on straight, you benefited from the dialogue as have protestants and muslims. If you have a problem with this then please tell all these Jewish Groups to meet and make a unifying effort to come out with a statement finally, tell them to give the Pope a finger and we will go our separate ways.

Or better yet shoot the Pope in May during his trip to Israel then have everyone Scream wildy on TV we will get the message.

PS: Thanks so much for the Dark Ages...

We did not cause them, they started when the Roman Empire collapsed and Northern European tribes invaded the Empire they were pagans. Not all of the Empire was even Christianised at that point, it took time but we managed to create Nations out of grass eaters and snake worshippers.

If you wanna thank anybody thank the Muslims for burning down the library of Alexandria.

[muman613]

Sounds like your religion stole a lot of ideology from Judaism...

Read the Bible friend, you will learn that Hashem made a pact with Abraham and the Jews are the Sons of G-d, not any idol-worshipping sect. Jews are princes and princesses to the King in heaven. I dont want to get into theology here because we try to remain friends with people of many faiths. Your understanding is completely alien to me.

Hashem promised the JEWS to protect us and redeem us and to send us the Moshiach. You think that Moshiach has come but there are numerous proofs he has not come. To me you are a pagan who is acting as Satan to the Jews. You will be defeated in the end of days and of that I am sure.

Our Father is in heaven. In our prayers we say "Avinu Malkanu" which means, Our Father, Our King. You are the ones who create a man-G-d and worship stone and wood. Your satanic church has perpetrated much injustice in the world and the witnesses are many.

If you come here to troll you will be banned.

PS: It seems to me that Catholics are not unified. There are more lapsed catholics who say that the Pope doesnt have any power.

PPS: The Catholic church has tried to forcibly convert many righteous Jews. May those who engaged in the Crusades and Inquisition perish from this earth.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

                                                                                                                                                                                    בס''ד

Marco is banned.

I suspected that he was just a Nazi troll, and he certainly confirmed it in his final post when he wrote that Jews and all other non-Catholics are "microbes". He came to the forum to cause conflict.

[Lisa]

System aint broken if it was broken Catholicism would be just another religion, we
have laws and a leader just like any other nation. As for Forgiveness, the Sons of G-d don't need to ask for permission from mere mortals on how and when they should act; we act in unity as a nation for our interest when we have to. Also Jewish people along with the Romans damn near killed all of us, plus don't forget that Jews fought with the Muslims against Catholics during the Crusades. We declared the Cursades close to 11th century, after giving Islam and Muslims time for dialogue as we usually do with everyone else.

Oh quit the victim routine!  The Roman Empire became Christian.  

As for the Jews fighting with Muslims during the Crusades, have you ever heard of a little thing called self-defense?  Everyone is entitled to it, even us "microbes" who only wanted to be left in piece to practice our religion.  

We are the Sons of G-d, G-d's legitimate offspring; Jews and Muslims deny the Father and you don't call yourself the Sons of G-d (an entirely different theology); G-d created the Universe including the earth and everything in it this inheritance will pass down to us from Father to Son; this inheritance does not pass down to microbes. But reguardless that does not mean that we don't mind sharing, I have no problem with Jews and Muslims living in the Holy Land even though by letter of the Law the universe itself is our play ground.

I don't care what your religion is.  But don't you dare come here and call us microbes!  Furthermore, you are in no position whatsoever to either "let" or "not let" Jews to have a Jewish state in the land of Israel.  

You are so banned from this forum!

[Lisa]

Chaim you beat me to it.  I was just about to ban him. 

[Raulmarrio2000]

I have received some mails inviting me to sign a protest petition about this issue, but I have refused. First of all, the excomunication of Williamson and the other ones was decreed due to INVALID consecration. They were indulted of THAT fault, not indulted of their anitSemitism. There are antiSemites in all religions, even some Jews are antiSemites and there has been no Cherem on them.
But I have another reason not to protest against the Pope. While I do recognise the Vatican City as a State and Ratzinger as its legitimate Head of State on that tiny land, I do not regard him as a valid moral authority on any issue. Catholics teach that non-Baptised people, even children deserve and will have eternal burning in Hell. Why should I ask him for a moral condemnation of an antiSemite Bishop? Wouldn't it imply that I recognise him some moral authority?