Author Topic: Philosophical question (Read 1810 times)

zachor_ve_kavod · « **on:** February 04, 2009, 09:22:54 AM »

I've often wondered about this and I'm not sure how I would answer. What do you have a greater desire for, that the evil be punished or that the good be rewarded? Let's look at the most clear example in human history where good and evil were so clearly defined: the holocaust. There is no better example (that I can think of, anyway) of where good was good and evil was evil. It is somewhat of a non-issue, because I am convinced that the reality is that the good and the evil of the holocaust will be recompensed measure for measure by G-d.

But I wonder what you (and I for that matter) have a greater desire for, if hypothetically we could only choose one: Would you want vengeance against the evil, or would you want maybe a special place in the olam haba for the victims?

If that is too difficult, what about here on Earth? As we do our best to pursue justice, is it more important in this world to bring the perpetrators to justice, or is it more important to take care of the victims?

Perhaps this is a childish post, because of course both are so important. But what I'm trying to get at is what motivates you: a sense of anger and a desire for vengeance, or a sense of compassion for the victims.

arksis · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:26:15 AM »

I have a HUGE desire for vengeance, don't get me wrong. But common sense tells me, that the more GOOD that is done and passed around, the more others will do the same. Hopefully, this "pay it forward" attitude will wipe out any and all evil. Yes, this would be a glorious earth if only this fantasy would happen. I have a favorite saying that I try to live by: "What goes around comes around".

Your post is NOT childish! Thank you for asking this question, I am curious to see the answers.

Tzvi Ben Roshel1 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:44:50 AM »

More important to take care of the victims

Xoce · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:10:53 PM »

If I understand you correctly, may I suggest a revision of your 2nd sentence?

Quote

What do you have a greater desire for, that the evil be punished or that the good be rewarded?

Should be "What do you have a greater desire for, that the evil be punished or that the victims be compensated?"

Xoce · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:15:06 PM »

If it's about human justice by humans on earth, I would prefer that evil be punished...
This I believe would deter other evil doer, and lessen the amount of suffering by potential victims who are spared victimhood via the example of evil being punished.

Hahaha I am writing sentences in circles... Have not slept in 24 hours... my brain is not working... but hopefully I've made my point somehow.

Masha · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:57:11 PM »

I don't think these are opposites. They spring from different human needs. A desire for the good to be rewarded is a rational desire. It every good deed is rewarded, people will try harder to do good, and life, in general, will become better for everybody. A desire to see the evil punished is a deep emotional and psychological need of the human psyche. If it's consistently thwarted, the person who experiences this need will become neurotic or screwed up in his head. Or he will misdirect his anger and frustration towards innocent victims. Look at some of these cookoo Israeli parents whose kids are killed by terrorists and who "forgive" the terrorists. They are totally insane. They look and behave insane. And they behave visciously towards righteous Jews.

✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ · « **Reply #6 on:** February 04, 2009, 01:17:46 PM »

As a hindu,we mostly leave things to karma.

Rubystars · « **Reply #7 on:** February 04, 2009, 01:21:43 PM »

Zachor I can't see the dichotomy here. Why can't both be accomplished? One doesn't seem to keep the other from happening.

One of the most horrible things about the Nazis is that many of them were never brought to justice here on earth. Hitler himself escaped being captured and made to face his crimes against humanity. Mengele was deliberately spared by so-called Nazi hunters. Others were brought to America or other places to work on science programs. What kind of justice is that? I do think that G-d is punishing all the Nazis that "got away", but I still think it was horrible that they didn't suffer here on earth for what they did.

GoIsraelGo! · « **Reply #8 on:** February 04, 2009, 02:28:01 PM »

Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on February 04, 2009, 09:22:54 AM

I've often wondered about this and I'm not sure how I would answer. What do you have a greater desire for, that the evil be punished or that the good be rewarded? Let's look at the most clear example in human history where good and evil were so clearly defined: the holocaust. There is no better example (that I can think of, anyway) of where good was good and evil was evil. It is somewhat of a non-issue, because I am convinced that the reality is that the good and the evil of the holocaust will be recompensed measure for measure by G-d.

But I wonder what you (and I for that matter) have a greater desire for, if hypothetically we could only choose one: Would you want vengeance against the evil, or would you want maybe a special place in the olam haba for the victims?

If that is too difficult, what about here on Earth? As we do our best to pursue justice, is it more important in this world to bring the perpetrators to justice, or is it more important to take care of the victims?

Perhaps this is a childish post, because of course both are so important. But what I'm trying to get at is what motivates you: a sense of anger and a desire for vengeance, or a sense of compassion for the victims.

Hi Zachor, there is nothing childish about this post. It is very important and I would like to respond if I may.
To me it is imperative that the perpetrators be brought to justice first. Vengance is born from comapssion for
the victims. Vengance is not an ugly thing, as long as the vengance was born out of a ( commitment to justice )
for the victims. Moslems have perfected the art of vengance to all non Moslems, especially Jews...this type of vengance
is EXTREMELY EVIL because it has no VALID REASON to exist in the first place.
The United States & Russia did not liberate the Jews from the death camps in Europe until they dealt with the perpetrators ( Nazis ) first.
In order to save people ( victims ) we must remove ( perpetrators ) first, otherwise we may end up being victims too.

Shalom - Dox

AsheDina · « **Reply #9 on:** February 04, 2009, 02:51:32 PM »

Doesn't G-d say that vengenace is His?? So, that answers that q. But.. I want those poor victims in a peaceful place, totally. I cant take looking at the atrocities, I am even sitting here crying. I just CANT TAKE IT.

Spectator · « **Reply #10 on:** February 04, 2009, 03:24:43 PM »

I see two questions in your post, zachor_ve_kavod:

Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on February 04, 2009, 09:22:54 AM

1. What do you have a greater desire for, that the evil be punished or that the good be rewarded?

Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on February 04, 2009, 09:22:54 AM

2. Is it more important in this world to bring the perpetrators to justice, or is it more important to take care of the victims?

1. This is a more global aspect. Indeed, it's not an easy question.
Our Sages ask: why did G-d create the world? What is the reason of its existence? They answer, to give the righteous reward in the World To Come. To give people the opportunity to do good to earn the World to Come. So if G-d says the reward for the righteous is the most important, then it is really so.

2. This is a more specific case. Here I completely agree with republicandox:

Quote from: republicandox on February 04, 2009, 02:28:01 PM

The United States & Russia did not liberate the Jews from the death camps in Europe until they dealt with the perpetrators ( Nazis ) first.
In order to save people ( victims ) we must remove ( perpetrators ) first, otherwise we may end up being victims too.

Of cousre, in case it's possible to do these two things in parallel, it should be done so.

Quote from: AsheDina on February 04, 2009, 02:51:32 PM

Doesn't G-d say that vengenace is His?? So, that answers that q.

On the other hand, G-d says "You shall eradicate the evil from your place"..
So the justice must be done but not to satisfy the desire for vengeance (though sometimes it's hard to resist to it), but to remove the evil so it won't threaten the other people and to educate other potential perpetrators of the consequences of doing evil.

zachor_ve_kavod · « **Reply #11 on:** February 04, 2009, 04:12:23 PM »

Quote from: Rubystars on February 04, 2009, 01:21:43 PM

Zachor I can't see the dichotomy here. Why can't both be accomplished? One doesn't seem to keep the other from happening.

One of the most horrible things about the Nazis is that many of them were never brought to justice here on earth. Hitler himself escaped being captured and made to face his crimes against humanity. Mengele was deliberately spared by so-called Nazi hunters. Others were brought to America or other places to work on science programs. What kind of justice is that? I do think that G-d is punishing all the Nazis that "got away", but I still think it was horrible that they didn't suffer here on earth for what they did.

Hi Rubystars,

Of course, there is no dichotomy here. The pursuit of justice (which I believe is our greatest method of sanctifying
G-d's name) encompasses both retribution and compensation. The question was only a hypothetical one.

muman613 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 04, 2009, 04:27:43 PM »

I fully believe that until Moshiach and the end of days arrive we will always be confronted with Satan and our own Yetzer Hara. Evil is not separate from Hashem as he created it with the same love he created kindness. As it is written in Torah, "I place before you blessing and life, and curses and death... Chose life..."

Evil is brought about when temptations get the better part of us. In the world Evil manifests itself in many forms. By working on ourselves, our families, our communities, and our cities, states, and countries we slowly change the evil in the world. I do not expect to ever wake up from a sleep and discover that evil no longer exists. Without evil and bad there is no reward for the good. Just as there is no light without darkness, so there must be evil for good to exist.

Rubystars · « **Reply #13 on:** February 04, 2009, 06:42:19 PM »

Sometimes authorities rescue abused children or animals but the perpetrators of the crimes get away or are unprosecutable. In those situations the most important thing was that the child or animal got rescued and is being taken care of. I was thinking of some of the episodes of Animal Cops I've seen where the only comfort was that the animal had been rescued even if they couldn't get the bad guys.

GoIsraelGo! · « **Reply #14 on:** February 04, 2009, 07:07:36 PM »

Quote from: Rubystars on February 04, 2009, 06:42:19 PM

Sometimes authorities rescue abused children or animals but the perpetrators of the crimes get away or are unprosecutable. In those situations the most important thing was that the child or animal got rescued and is being taken care of. I was thinking of some of the episodes of Animal Cops I've seen where the only comfort was that the animal had been rescued even if they couldn't get the bad guys.

Hi Ruby, I have seen Animal cops and it is heartbreaking. On one episode the officer found ducks and chickens who had been without fresh water for weeks.
The poor things had to bathe and drink from putrid water that looked like grey runny mud. I think the laws should be changed and if animals are found in that condition to begin with, the animals should be removed right away. I have a deep hatred for those who are cruel to children and animals. Children and animals are defenseless.

Shalom - Dox

Daleksfearme · « **Reply #15 on:** February 04, 2009, 09:18:20 PM »

I think both sides can be balanced, as they are of equal importance.

IsraelForever · « **Reply #16 on:** February 05, 2009, 05:24:38 AM »

For me, this is a very easy question to answer. It's not a conundrum at all (at least for me).

I want evil punished, even at the expense of goodness being rewarded.

Here's a question: Would I rather reward Oskar Shindler or punish Hitler? Given this choice, is it hard to answer? I would feel badly for Shindler, but there would be no consoling me if I didn't punish Hitler. Evil has to be punished even at the expense of not rewarding goodness.

If I had to give all my money to Nazi hunters versus giving the money to Righteous Gentile hunters (humor me on this one), then the Nazi hunters get all my money. Not even close.

zachor_ve_kavod · « **Reply #17 on:** February 05, 2009, 10:11:32 AM »

Quote from: IsraelForever on February 05, 2009, 05:24:38 AM

For me, this is a very easy question to answer. It's not a conundrum at all (at least for me).

I want evil punished, even at the expense of goodness being rewarded.

Here's a question: Would I rather reward Oskar Shindler or punish Hitler? Given this choice, is it hard to answer? I would feel badly for Shindler, but there would be no consoling me if I didn't punish Hitler. Evil has to be punished even at the expense of not rewarding goodness.

If I had to give all my money to Nazi hunters versus giving the money to Righteous Gentile hunters (humor me on this one), then the Nazi hunters get all my money. Not even close.

Ok, but hypothetically, in the next world, would you rather that the perpetrators of the holocaust were punished by G-d or that the victims could get compensated for the pleasures of life that they missed?

IsraelForever · « **Reply #18 on:** February 05, 2009, 07:49:21 PM »

Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on February 05, 2009, 10:11:32 AM

Quote from: IsraelForever on February 05, 2009, 05:24:38 AM
For me, this is a very easy question to answer. It's not a conundrum at all (at least for me).

I want evil punished, even at the expense of goodness being rewarded.

Here's a question: Would I rather reward Oskar Shindler or punish Hitler? Given this choice, is it hard to answer? I would feel badly for Shindler, but there would be no consoling me if I didn't punish Hitler. Evil has to be punished even at the expense of not rewarding goodness.

If I had to give all my money to Nazi hunters versus giving the money to Righteous Gentile hunters (humor me on this one), then the Nazi hunters get all my money. Not even close.

Ok, but hypothetically, in the next world, would you rather that the perpetrators of the holocaust were punished by G-d or that the victims could get compensated for the pleasures of life that they missed?

You're asking a hypothetical question, which, as we all understand, can be very problematic and tricky to answer. And since a question like this presents one with a problem that will never occur, my answer has to be seen in this light.

So, if you put a gun to my head, and I had to answer this question, I would answer it in the following way: I'm speaking for me now. If I were a victim of the Nazi's and I were asked in the next life if I would rather be compensated for the pleasures of life that I missed, or would I rather see Hitler burning in Hell for all eternity, I would say "send Hitler to Hell". And I'll tell you why: How could I enjoy any pleasure if I knew that Hitler (and all the perpetrators) never received any punishment? Knowing that Hitler and the perpetrators were suffering excruciating pain for all eternity, would be all the pleasure I would need. Other people may certainly have their own view on this. And since this is a hypothetical question, how would I know what I would really answer?

zachor_ve_kavod · « **Reply #19 on:** February 05, 2009, 10:13:16 PM »

Quote from: IsraelForever on February 05, 2009, 07:49:21 PM

Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on February 05, 2009, 10:11:32 AM
Quote from: IsraelForever on February 05, 2009, 05:24:38 AM
For me, this is a very easy question to answer. It's not a conundrum at all (at least for me).

I want evil punished, even at the expense of goodness being rewarded.

Here's a question: Would I rather reward Oskar Shindler or punish Hitler? Given this choice, is it hard to answer? I would feel badly for Shindler, but there would be no consoling me if I didn't punish Hitler. Evil has to be punished even at the expense of not rewarding goodness.

If I had to give all my money to Nazi hunters versus giving the money to Righteous Gentile hunters (humor me on this one), then the Nazi hunters get all my money. Not even close.

Ok, but hypothetically, in the next world, would you rather that the perpetrators of the holocaust were punished by G-d or that the victims could get compensated for the pleasures of life that they missed?
You're asking a hypothetical question, which, as we all understand, can be very problematic and tricky to answer. And since a question like this presents one with a problem that will never occur, my answer has to be seen in this light.

So, if you put a gun to my head, and I had to answer this question, I would answer it in the following way: I'm speaking for me now. If I were a victim of the Nazi's and I were asked in the next life if I would rather be compensated for the pleasures of life that I missed, or would I rather see Hitler burning in Hell for all eternity, I would say "send Hitler to Hell". And I'll tell you why: How could I enjoy any pleasure if I knew that Hitler (and all the perpetrators) never received any punishment? Knowing that Hitler and the perpetrators were suffering excruciating pain for all eternity, would be all the pleasure I would need. Other people may certainly have their own view on this. And since this is a hypothetical question, how would I know what I would really answer?

That is a really good point and I haven't thought of it that way. "How could I enjoy any pleasure if I knew that Hitler (and all the perpetrators) never received any punishment? " The answer is you couldn't. I guess that makes the question I posed really impossible to answer. I wonder if there is some sort of flip side to this. Maybe "what good is punishment for perpetrators without compensation for victims?"

The analogy of justice as a balance scale seems apt. It's something we can never get quite right in this world. On one side there is good and on the other evil. What is taken away from one side has to be placed on the other. Only
G-d can balance this scale perfectly.

IsraelForever · « **Reply #20 on:** February 05, 2009, 10:45:25 PM »

Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod

Maybe "what good is punishment for perpetrators without compensation for victims?"

Or maybe not.

In other words, if I were a victim of the Holocaust, if I didn't receive compensation (and while I would certainly desire compensation), it still would be good enough for me to see the perpetrators get punished. That's why it made my blood boil to read on the front page of the New York Times today (and right here in this forum) that Dr. Aribert Heim (a.k.a. Tarek Hussein Farid), a Nazi doctor, nicknamed "Dr. Death", lived out his life peacefully in Egypt.

I found it interesting that on opposite pages of the Times today -- on pages A16 and A17 -- you had one article about the fugitive Nazi doctor and another article on how the Pope ordered Bishop Richard Williamson to recant his denials about the Holocaust. I don't know if the Times did this on purpose, but the irony did get to me.