Pope tells bishop to 'recant' his Holocaust denial

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Catholicism does not mandate 100% ideological conformity with each and every Pontiff. What it does demand is that all individual Catholics respect and obey his decisions. It is perfectly possible to be a completely devout and moral Catholic and have personal differences of opinion with the Pope. Just for the record.

And Muman, you never gave me a really convincing answer when I pointed out to you that SOME Jews consider certain rabbinical scholars to be almost divine and to obey every ruling that they make word-for-word. We even took the discussion offline and I took great pains to explain myself properly.

[muman613]

Catholicism does not mandate 100% ideological conformity with each and every Pontiff. What it does demand is that all individual Catholics respect and obey his decisions. It is perfectly possible to be a completely devout and moral Catholic and have personal differences of opinion with the Pope. Just for the record.

And Muman, you never gave me a really convincing answer when I pointed out to you that SOME Jews consider certain rabbinical scholars to be almost divine and to obey every ruling that they make word-for-word. We even took the discussion offline and I took great pains to explain myself properly.

C.F.,

There is a big difference between taking the words of a Rabbi who is passing judgements based on Halachic principles and the Pope. There are no Jews who consider their Rabbi to have a direct link to Hashem. That is against the Jewish religion. There is no comparison to the power which the Pope has over the RCC and some Rabbis and their pupils. I think you have a misunderstanding of Judaism. Please show me these Jews who believe that their Rabbi is speaking for Hashem? The age of prophets ended when the Second Temple was destroyed. The Rabbi does have a power vested in him from the Torah which is to interpret the laws and establish new Halachas. That is very different from believing that the Rabbi is infallible.

PS: Many of the greatest Sages of Jewish wisdom had conflicts and differences. This is well documented in our Talmud.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

There are no Jews who consider their Rabbi to have a direct link to Hashem.

That right away is false. Many Rebbes throughout history have been considered to be messianic, or at least prophetic.

That is against the Jewish religion.

Umm, do you think saying something often enough makes it true?

There is no comparison to the power which the Pope has over the RCC and some Rabbis and their pupils.

Reminder--I said SOME Jews consider SOME Rebbes to be divinely infallible.

Please show me these Jews who believe that their Rabbi is speaking for Hashem?

I have, many times. Since you don't like me using the example of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, I will use the example of a rabbi I agree with much more, the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

The age of prophets ended when the Second Temple was destroyed. The Rabbi does have a power vested in him from the Torah which is to interpret the laws and establish new Halachas. That is very different from believing that the Rabbi is infallible.

In practice you and I both know this distinction is sometimes blurred.

Either you are going to apologize for attacking Catholics or you aren't, it's that simple. Otherwise I have no more responses for you.

[Moshe92]

Muman and C.F. are both very righteous people, and I think they should stop having this silly argument.

[nessuno]

Muman and C.F. are both very righteous people, and I think they should stop having this silly argument.

I think C.F. is making a valid point.
I've been trying to find a diplomatic way to say the same thing to Muman.
I'm glad that C.F. finally did.

[TheCoon]

Holocaust denial is sickening and this is a good step by the Pope. It shouldn't stop us in condemning left-wing Jews who attempt to make the holocaust a central pillar of Jewish identity.

[Masha]

It shouldn't stop us in condemning left-wing Jews who attempt to make the holocaust a central pillar of Jewish identity.

This is exactly what I am talking about. A central pillar of Jewish identity. It's a very dangerous and insidious development. Another thing is, all this hand-wringing about the Holocaust is done instead of something else! Instead of fighting for Israel today! Fighting against the hydra of anti-semitism and anti-Zionism rising its ugly heads today! It has turned into a kind of sold and bought "indulgence," if you will. You get a "free out of jail" card. If you lament the Holocaust, you get to lambast Israel all you will. The louder you do the first, the louder you can do the second. Do you all understand what I am saying? It's not about the Holocaust, it's about the "politics" of the Holocaust. If only 10% of the energy that goes into decrying Holocaust denying went into decrying evil Israel detractors, how much better our world would be! You know how this website replaces some words that you write with other words? This is what I'd like to do. Every time someone opens his mouth with an intention to denounce a Holocaust denier, I would like the actual words out of his mouth to denounce an Israel-basher!

And another thought. There is something pitiful and undignified about a people who base their identity on what they have suffered. Who keep complaining and going on and on about their victimary status. I don't want to be a poor victim. I want Jews to shout from all hilltops about the great Jewish heroes, about the great victories that the Jewish people have won. I want us to shout about what we are going to do. How we are going to unite with all the righteous gentiles and take on the unrighteous of the world and trample them under our feet, squash them, decimate them, and obliterate them! How G-d is on our side because our side is the right side of truth, the right side of history! How not only they but their memory will be completely obliterated, and nothing will remain, nothing will commemorate their heinous, wicked, miserable lives - not a headstone, not a legend, nothing! I want our enemies to think of us as fierce, pugnacious, and invincible, and I want them to shake in their boots and pee in their pants when they see us. This is how I want Jews to be thought of. And this is why I think we should boycott the Holocaust cottage industry.

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

My son has been upset because he has to study the "Holocaust" (its more properly called the Churban) in school. He feels burned out on it; he had to learn it in middle school in NJ (NJ mandates holocaust ed), and he just feels he has reached saturation point. He is a good Jewish boy, just tired of it all. He said the focus solely on the genocide makes him feel that that's all being Jewish is about, being a victim.

His teacher is requiring him in 10th grade to read NIGHT by Ellie the Weasel. He does NOT want to read it. I told him I would give him a brief synopsis of what its about, and then together, we will write an essay telling how WE feel about all of this, from a rightwing Jewish Torah POV.

The Nazi genocide (Churban) is ONLY ONE of MANY tragedies that have befallen our people. And I believe, like the other tragedies, it was allowed to happen by Hashem to punish us for our aveiros. The goyim are an instrument in the hand of Hashem, but they MUST NOT take delight in this because G-d will destroy them ultimately with much agony if they do take joy in it.

I do not like Jewish children studying the Churban OUT OF CONTEXT of Jewish history. Jewish history is a continuum; to take it out of its normal context, as liberal secular Jews do, is to encourage people not to see G-d's Hand in all of Jewish history.

The leftist Jews want Jews and others to feel despair and not turn to G-d. They want Jews to feel that there was no way we could have prevented the Churban, but we could have if we had done teshuvah.

For a proper JEWISH Torah insight into why these things happen, study Derech Hashem by the Ramchal, and also  SHOAH (published by Mesorah).

It shouldn't stop us in condemning left-wing Jews who attempt to make the holocaust a central pillar of Jewish identity.

This is exactly what I am talking about. A central pillar of Jewish identity. It's a very dangerous and insidious development. Another thing is, all this hand-wringing about the Holocaust is done instead of something else! Instead of fighting for Israel today! Fighting against the hydra of anti-semitism and anti-Zionism rising its ugly heads today! It has turned into a kind of sold and bought "indulgence," if you will. You get a "free out of jail" card. If you lament the Holocaust, you get to lambast Israel all you will. The louder you do the first, the louder you can do the second. Do you all understand what I am saying? It's not about the Holocaust, it's about the "politics" of the Holocaust. If only 10% of the energy that goes into decrying Holocaust denying went into decrying evil Israel detractors, how much better our world would be! You know how this website replaces some words that you write with other words? This is what I'd like to do. Every time someone opens his mouth with an intention to denounce a Holocaust denier, I would like the actual words out of his mouth to denounce an Israel-basher!

And another thought. There is something pitiful and undignified about a people who base their identity on what they have suffered. Who keep complaining and going on and on about their victimary status. I don't want to be a poor victim. I want Jews to shout from all hilltops about the great Jewish heroes, about the great victories that the Jewish people have won. I want us to shout about what we are going to do. How we are going to unite with all the righteous gentiles and take on the unrighteous of the world and trample them under our feet, squash them, decimate them, and obliterate them! How G-d is on our side because our side is the right side of truth, the right side of history! How not only they but their memory will be completely obliterated, and nothing will remain, nothing will commemorate their heinous, wicked, miserable lives - not a headstone, not a legend, nothing! I want our enemies to think of us as fierce, pugnacious, and invincible, and I want them to shake in their boots and pee in their pants when they see us. This is how I want Jews to be thought of. And this is why I think we should boycott the Holocaust cottage industry.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I just heard Ask JTF, belatedly, and heard Chaim's comments on the current pontiff, and agree with them 100%. I do think Pope Benedict/Ratzinger acted out of anti-Semitism when he reinstated this Amalek devil Williamson. Still, there is a fine line between criticizing guilty popes and their actions and attacking all of Catholicism. I am not a Catholic, but there are many fine Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ (to me) and many fine Catholic Zionists (to all of us) who have nothing to do with anti-Semitic and Nazilike actions by popes past or present. We need to be very careful here.

[GoIsraelGo!]

I just heard Ask JTF, belatedly, and heard Chaim's comments on the current pontiff, and agree with them 100%. I do think Pope Benedict/Ratzinger acted out of anti-Semitism when he reinstated this Amalek devil Williamson. Still, there is a fine line between criticizing guilty popes and their actions and attacking all of Catholicism. I am not a Catholic, but there are many fine Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ (to me) and many fine Catholic Zionists (to all of us) who have nothing to do with anti-Semitic and Nazilike actions by popes past or present. We need to be very careful here.

Hi CF, I agree we have to be careful because there are many wonderful Catholics who support the Jews and Israel. Having that said, I must add that as the head of the Catholic Church, it is the absolute responsibility of the Pope to reconsider his decision about this Holocaust denier. If the Pope allows him to remain in the Church, then I find the Pope guilty of ( anti-semitism ) to a gross degree. Allowing this azzhole Holocaust denier to remain in the Church, is telling the world that he has no regrets being a Hitler youth.
I hope for the sake of all good Catholics, this Holocaust denier is banned by the Pope. If the Pope fails to do this, I will consider him nothing but another anti semite who came into power.


                                                                                         Shalom - Dox

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Hi CF, I agree we have to be careful because there are many wonderful Catholics who support the Jews and Israel. Having that said, I must add that as the head of the Catholic Church, it is the absolute responsibility of the Pope to reconsider his decision about this Holocaust denier. If the Pope allows him to remain in the Church, then I find the Pope guilty of ( anti-semitism ) to a gross degree. Allowing this azzhole Holocaust denier to remain in the Church, is telling the world that he has no regrets being a Hitler youth.
I hope for the sake of all good Catholics, this Holocaust denier is banned by the Pope. If the Pope fails to do this, I will consider him nothing but another anti semite who came into power.

Your assessment is completely fair. While I give the pope credit for caving to the pressure and requiring that Williamson take back the worst of his Jew-hatred, the fact that he reinstated him to begin with is beyond the pale.

[ItalianZionist]

Every religion is going to have adherents or leaders that do or say bad things. If you look at the catachism (law of the catholic church) it does not tell catholics to be antiJewish..If "catholics" or leaders of the catholic church don't follow this catachism, it's their mistake...just like if Jews don't follow the Torah..

[GoIsraelGo!]

Every religion is going to have adherents or leaders that do or say bad things. If you look at the catachism (law of the catholic church) it does not tell catholics to be antiJewish..If "catholics" or leaders of the catholic church don't follow this catachism, it's their mistake...just like if Jews don't follow the Torah..

Hi, I have to agree with you. There are good and bad people in all religions excluding Islam...in Islam there are no good people. If you see anything positive about Islam let me know, until then I will judge it for what it is...a death and destruction cult.
May G-d bless you!

                                                                                        Shalom - Dox

[ItalianZionist]

Every religion is going to have adherents or leaders that do or say bad things. If you look at the catachism (law of the catholic church) it does not tell catholics to be antiJewish..If "catholics" or leaders of the catholic church don't follow this catachism, it's their mistake...just like if Jews don't follow the Torah..

Hi, I have to agree with you. There are good and bad people in all religions excluding Islam...in Islam there are no good people. If you see anything positive about Islam let me know, until then I will judge it for what it is...a death and destruction cult.
May G-d bless you!

                                                                                        Shalom - Dox

I hope and suspect that there are some people who call themselves muslims that can be "good", but the doctrine of Islam is dispicable, whereas I defy anyone to find anything in the new testament that condones antisemitism or killing.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Any Muslim who is "good" is not a real Muslim. They are either extremely ignorant of their own religion, or deliberately defy it and thus are not real Muslims.

[GoIsraelGo!]

Any Muslim who is "good" is not a real Muslim. They are either extremely ignorant of their own religion, or deliberately defy it and thus are not real Muslims.

Ruth Ginsberg's face is so sickening, I see a bitter angry woman behind her eyes.
I mean it's downright scary! I hope someday you remove that pic of her.
I hate to see evil faces.

                                                                              Shalom - Dox

[Ultra Requete]

Pope Benedict is good pope for being German. Don't forget both German left and right recent USA and Jews for defreat in both world wars and particulary for ashaming their beloved country after WWII. As for RCC there is nothing Roman in it since Charl le Magne. Call it Frankish church. You can't epect the pope who didn't have Jewish friends in his youth and don't fought in resitance like JPII  to be empathic towards Holocaust. Intead he had shitleryouth as his role model. Still he's not nazi but unconcius old stock antisemite. One last thing; imams in Londonistan speaks worse things than Wiliamson and you're not allowed to point it out, becouse MSM picked this case not help Jews but to attack RCC the last bastion of conservative G-dly values. BTW this italian holocaust denier Abrahamowich was kicked out from PX society.       

[mord]

Pope Benedict is good pope for being German. Don't forget both German left and right recent USA and Jews for defreat in both world wars and particulary for ashaming their beloved country after WWII. As for RCC there is nothing Roman in it since Charl le Magne. Call it Frankish church. You can't epect the pope who didn't have Jewish friends in his youth and don't fought in resitance like JPII  to be empathic towards Holocaust. Intead he had shitleryouth as his role model. Still he's not nazi but unconcius old stock antisemite. One last thing; imams in Londonistan speaks worse things than Wiliamson and you're not allowed to point it out, becouse MSM picked this case not help Jews but to attack RCC the last bastion of conservative G-dly values. BTW this italian holocaust denier Abrahamowich was kicked out from PX society.       

Abrahamowich said he can say things since his father is Jewish

[mord]

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,31341.0.html   








Priest: Gas chambers were for disinfection

Conservative Italian priest compares Holocaust to other genocides like 'that committed in Gaza'

Ynet
Published:    01.29.09, 18:18 / Israel Jewish Scene

Conservative Catholic priest Floriano Abrahamowicz said Thursday that "the only thing certain" about the gas chambers "was that they were used for disinfection."

 

Another priest who denied the Holocaust altogether was rehabilitated by the pope.

 
Abrahamowicz, of Treviso in northern Italy, was quoted by the Tribuna di Treviso on Thursday in a report that received worldwide coverage due to the pope's recent rehabilitation of a bishop who denied the Holocaust, sparking a battle between the Vatican and the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

 
Abrahamowicz is a traditionalist like British-born Richard Williamson, whose excommunication was lifted by Pope Benedict on Saturday along with three other bishops after 20 years of exile.

 
The Treviso priest said he could not say for sure that people were murdered in the gas chambers because he had not investigated the claim.

 
He said he did not doubt six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, but compared the Nazi murder of the Jews to "other genocides" that did not receive similar publicity, including Israel's military offensive in the Gaza Strip and the allies' bombing of German cities during WWII.

 
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"The Israelis cannot say that the genocide they suffered at the hands of the Nazis was graver than that occurring in Gaza just because they killed several thousand people while the Nazis killed six million," Abrahamowicz was quoted as saying.

 
[b]He denied that he and other conservatives were anti-Semites, and stressed that his father was a Jew.[/b] However he described the Jewish people as slayers of G-d, and called on the Jews to "adopt our lord Jesus".