To Chaim Ben Pesach:
First of all I would like to note that this topic should have been in the Torah and Jewish Idea section where perhaps people would take such a topic more seriously. Regardless, I would like to thank Chaim once again for stepping in to give his insight on the matter. If any of my responses sound harsh, blunt, sarcastic, or anything of the sort please it was not my intention at all, and I did not mean to do so. I don’t have to give Chaim this warning because he is a grown man and grown men can have disagreements especially when it comes to interpretations of Torah. Rather, this is leveled at a small minority here in this forum whose maturity level cannot grasp these kinds of debates.
Chaim you mentioned we are obligated to curse ‘self-hating’ Jews and even kill them. First of all, you and many forum members here use the term self-hating quite liberally. It’s been thrown at everyone and everything. To many of you self-hating simply means a secular Jew who goes against what you view politically. This is clearly not the case. These Jews could be very well evil, but self hating is not the correct term. The word has been bastardized beyond belief and many people in this forum are guilty of it. A self-hating Jew is a Jew who hates the Jewish nation. People like Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Dan Burros, morons of this sort. These are clear cut examples of self hating Jews. People like for example Ariel Sharon and Yitzhak Rabin were viciously evil Jews, but they had a thing called “secular Jewish pride.” Like what seems rampant of many people here in the forum, which I find absurd because it’s Jewish pride with no Torah. It doesn’t make sense to me. So you see the term self hating cannot apply to them.
Indeed we are commanded to hate evil Jews:
To what extent is hatred forbidden? One should not say, “Love scholars
but hate students, love students but hate ignoramuses.” One must love
everyone, hating only heretics, inciters to heresy, and informers. As King
David said (Ps. 139:21-22), “O L-rd, do I not hate those who hate you? Do
I not strive with those who rise up against You? I hate them with the utmost
hatred. I count them among my enemies.”
Does it not say, “Love your neighbor as yourself. I am the L-rd” [i.e how
can one hate these when it says we must love our neighbor]? The answer is
that G-d said, “ I am the L-rd Who created him.” If he conducts himself
in way required of our people, you must love him. Otherwise you must
not. - (Avot DeRabbi Natan)
Our sages further said:
“If your brother incites you….. Do not accept him or listen to him. Have
no pity on him…. You shall surely kill him” (Deut. 13:7,9-10): Since it
says, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” I might think one should love this
Person too. It therefore says, “Do not accept him.” (Sifri, Re’eh 89)
So indeed we are not only obligated to hate evil Jews but to kill them as well. But you have misled people here to a certain extent with this statement:
We are actually obligated to kill them. But we in JTF are so moderate and so law-abiding that we do not kill these traitors even though under Torah law, that is our obligation. We JTFers are simply too moderate and too law abiding to do such a thing.”
Too moderate? Too law abiding? Are you forgetting biblical punishments such as the death penalty are only applicable if there is a Sanhedrin? Without one, Halacha does not allow capital punishment. We are not mafiosos giving people street justice. It doesn’t work like that. Now I feel rather disappointed in you for your casual talk and in my opinion glee towards violence against a fellow Jew. Let’s look at what Rav Kahane HY"D had to say about this:
Question: Is violence between and among Jews legitimate?
Kahane: It depends on the circumstances. For example, if we begin a
a program to move the Arabs out, and there were Jews who
opposed this program, even though it was government law,
then we would have to use force against them. That’s sad. But
they would have to obey. (Israel’s Ayatollahs, Raphael Merqui)
Rav Kahane HY"D clearly is leaving violence as the absolute last option. And if you still are not convinced, here is more:
Question: And what do you think about murders among Jews, for example
the killing of Emil Grunzweig, one of the Peace Now activists?
Kahane: Terrible……If he really was murdered. But nobody knows, nobody
knows yet; there have been a lot of rumors….But if he was really
killed by a Jew, it would be a terrible, tragic incident; this Jew
should be brought to trial and sentenced. You don’t do that to a Jew.
Question: In other words, you’d never resort to violence against a Jew? Not
even a communist Jew?
Kahane: If a Jew used violence against me, I’m not sure I wouldn’t retaliate.
But we certainly wouldn’t be the ones to start using violence
against Jews. (Israel’s Ayatollahs, Raphael Merqui)
So indeed the Rav Kahane HY"D has ‘spoken’ on this matter. I agree with him 100%
To further this point on hating ‘evil’ Jews, unfortunately some non-Jewish members of this forum (of which several Jews joined in) have attacked Jews like Chandra Levy. I can’t even look back into that thread I was so disgusted. Levy is just one example, there has been plenty, too much to name. First of all, are we really in a position to say this is an evil Jew? Let alone a gentile tell us this is an evil Jew? Let alone a gentile who I won’t even write his name, tell us Jews she was a, “self-hating, leftist, Arab-loving whore.” Who does this guy think he is? We need to make it clear where gentiles stand with us, unfortunately I think there is great confusion to role of a Jew and Gentile to some our Gentile forum members. Let’s use the words our great sage to expand on this:
The second is the non-Jew who was created in G-d’s image,
yet who is not dear and special to G-d and not classed as
“adam.” After all, Adam’s mission in the world passed on to
Israel. Although we are forbidden to hate or denigrate such a
non-Jew as long as he does not become an enemy of G-d and
as long as keeps the seven Noahide laws, there is no mitzvah
to love and respect him. (Kahane, Or’ Hara’ayon)
To the gentile that provokes a Jew[any Jew]:
On the other hand, if a non-Jew hates and torments a Jew, even
if he is doing so for personal reasons, the very fact that he is
unafraid to provoke a Jew, G-d’s firstborn, is itself a provocation
of G-d and a profanation of His name. How much more so that
When non-Jews seek to harm the Jewish People, this constitutes
Profanation of G-d’s name and war against G-d, and not a personal
Matter. (Kahane, Or’ Hara’ayon)
If this is what the Rav said about a gentile who torments a Jew, I can just imagine what the Rav would of said about the gentile who provokes the memory of a dead Jew. But let's move on.........
Hashem works in mysterious ways. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that you mentioned the event of Moses & the golden calf and the current state we find ourselves in this forum with a particular small group of members.
Let me explain what I mean; first of all, let us reveal who exactly were these people who incited the worshiping of the calf. Our sages have said:
It was in the sixth hour of the day that when Moses did not
come back down from the Mount, the then vocal minority,
the erev rav, called out to Aharon and the rest of the Jews to
build the golden calf. (Vilna Goan, Kol HaTor)
Who exactly are these people? The so called erev rav? Erev rav means the mixed multitude of nations that came out of Egypt with the Jewish people.
The Children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth,
about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children.
Also a mixed multitude (erev rav) went up with them, and flock
and cattle, very much livestock. (Exodus12:37-38)
They were clearly not apart of the Jewish nation. These people were the sorcerers and magicians and the outright pagans of Egypt. Even though Hashem warned Moses not to take them, he ended up accepting them. What great tragedy this brought. Moses saw what
these people were capable of and the subsequent idol worship so he gathered the Levites. They slaughtered everyone of them. Here’s what Rav Kahane HY"D said:
What self-sacrifice! What acceptance of the yoke of Heaven!
only a person with an exalted soul, who is full of love of G-d
and of G-d’s righteousness, full of hatred of the wicked and of
wickedness, is capable of reaching such heights. Levi and Simeon
Combined within them zealotry and fierce love of G-d, coupled with
revenge against evildoers and evil. After G-d refined them through
such tribulations and diminished their arrogance and hatred, they
emerged as leaders and saints of the Jewish people. Indeed, “where
Revenge is necessary, it is great thing.”(Kahane, Or’ Hara’ayon)
Zeal is a divine trait and they certainly showed it. But again, it was at the right time, and the right place. The Rav stressed this time and time again.
Chaim, I’d like to thank you for protecting the honor of our sages. Indeed we cannot curse our Torah scholars. I hope this message of yours gets through to some of the moderators who seem to ignore these posts.
Sorry for the long reply. I couldn’t even get to what I wanted to say about Pinchas. I’ll leave it for later.
- Nadav
Topic: We are OBLIGATED to curse self-hating Jewish traitors (Read 26693 times)