Author Topic: Im against embryonic stem cell research  (Read 4570 times)

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Offline muman613

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Im against embryonic stem cell research
« on: March 10, 2009, 03:00:17 PM »
Im pretty upset with the lifting of the ban on embryonic stem cell research. The loss in the value of life is immense. Now people may kill unborn children in order to harvest cells which will extend their lives. There are serious moral and ethical issues which are being completely ignored by an administration and a profession which intends to deny the existence of the Creator of the Universe.

It is especially important for Jews who read this to realize that the aspect of Haman which causes him to hate the Jew is  the fact that Amalek denies Hashem and tries to prove that everything that happens in this world is a result of nature. A true servant of Hashem can see through the veil that everything that happens is because of Hashem. This Embroynic Stem cell research is a way to test us, do we see the beauty of life and value it, or do we just see life as genetic material which can be used as if we were animals.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline zachor_ve_kavod

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 03:19:56 PM »
Im pretty upset with the lifting of the ban on embryonic stem cell research. The loss in the value of life is immense. Now people may kill unborn children in order to harvest cells which will extend their lives. There are serious moral and ethical issues which are being completely ignored by an administration and a profession which intends to deny the existence of the Creator of the Universe.

It is especially important for Jews who read this to realize that the aspect of Haman which causes him to hate the Jew is  the fact that Amalek denies Hashem and tries to prove that everything that happens in this world is a result of nature. A true servant of Hashem can see through the veil that everything that happens is because of Hashem. This Embroynic Stem cell research is a way to test us, do we see the beauty of life and value it, or do we just see life as genetic material which can be used as if we were animals.



To be accurate, there was never a ban on stem cell research.  There was a ban on government funding of stem cell research, but there was certainly no legal prohibition on it.  Private companies were allowed and are allowed to do it.  Obama's lifting of this so-called ban, will now have government fund it.  Personally, I'm undecided on this issue.  A stem cell is not a life (I don't think), it's a potential life, so I have trouble equating it with abortion.  The other thing to consider is that these stem-cells are donated to fertility clinics and most will be discarded anyway.  Given that they are going to be discarded, isn't it better that they are used for research which will potentially lead to cures of things like multiple sclerosis?  I'm not set in my opinion.  I've had a hard time with this issue.

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 03:25:20 PM »
Im pretty upset with the lifting of the ban on embryonic stem cell research. The loss in the value of life is immense. Now people may kill unborn children in order to harvest cells which will extend their lives. There are serious moral and ethical issues which are being completely ignored by an administration and a profession which intends to deny the existence of the Creator of the Universe.

It is especially important for Jews who read this to realize that the aspect of Haman which causes him to hate the Jew is  the fact that Amalek denies Hashem and tries to prove that everything that happens in this world is a result of nature. A true servant of Hashem can see through the veil that everything that happens is because of Hashem. This Embroynic Stem cell research is a way to test us, do we see the beauty of life and value it, or do we just see life as genetic material which can be used as if we were animals.



To be accurate, there was never a ban on stem cell research.  There was a ban on government funding of stem cell research, but there was certainly no legal prohibition on it.  Private companies were allowed and are allowed to do it.  Obama's lifting of this so-called ban, will now have government fund it.  Personally, I'm undecided on this issue.  A stem cell is not a life (I don't think), it's a potential life, so I have trouble equating it with abortion.  The other thing to consider is that these stem-cells are donated to fertility clinics and most will be discarded anyway.  Given that they are going to be discarded, isn't it better that they are used for research which will potentially lead to cures of things like multiple sclerosis?  I'm not set in my opinion.  I've had a hard time with this issue.

To be even more accurate... there was a ban on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research other than the 20 or so lines that already had existed when the ban was enacted.

Regardless this is all a moot point... as Embryonic stem cell research is a farce... since there is FAR more promise and potential in tweaking adult stem cells into a omnipotent state.

Offline muman613

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 03:28:02 PM »
The issue in Jewish thought seems to me to be very explicit. I have read that organ donation is approved by several prominent Rabbis and I understand this, again because it will save lives. But in the case of Embryonic Stem Cell research it is not proven that anything special will result. The reason that this material will be discarded is not very relevant in my opinion. Every part of us is special, from our souls to our bodies. The principle which makes this research un-kosher, in my opinion, is that all life is like animal life. I believe every cell in my body is a part of me and should be removed from the world when I pass. All human life is precious and if this research causes destruction of potential human beings then I question its ethical foundation. It is scary when people like Hissler Yemach Shemo used such technologies to experiment on Jews and racial theories such as Eugenics. Younger people may not remember that the most intelligent and cultured people can turn into barbarians in a moment.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline zachor_ve_kavod

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 03:40:21 PM »
The issue in Jewish thought seems to me to be very explicit. I have read that organ donation is approved by several prominent Rabbis and I understand this, again because it will save lives. But in the case of Embryonic Stem Cell research it is not proven that anything special will result. The reason that this material will be discarded is not very relevant in my opinion. Every part of us is special, from our souls to our bodies. The principle which makes this research un-kosher, in my opinion, is that all life is like animal life. I believe every cell in my body is a part of me and should be removed from the world when I pass. All human life is precious and if this research causes destruction of potential human beings then I question its ethical foundation. It is scary when people like Hissler Yemach Shemo used such technologies to experiment on Jews and racial theories such as Eugenics. Younger people may not remember that the most intelligent and cultured people can turn into barbarians in a moment.



It's a good point.  It could lead to something far worse.

Offline AsheDina

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2009, 04:10:01 PM »
The issue in Jewish thought seems to me to be very explicit. I have read that organ donation is approved by several prominent Rabbis and I understand this, again because it will save lives. But in the case of Embryonic Stem Cell research it is not proven that anything special will result. The reason that this material will be discarded is not very relevant in my opinion. Every part of us is special, from our souls to our bodies. The principle which makes this research un-kosher, in my opinion, is that all life is like animal life. I believe every cell in my body is a part of me and should be removed from the world when I pass. All human life is precious and if this research causes destruction of potential human beings then I question its ethical foundation. It is scary when people like Hissler Yemach Shemo used such technologies to experiment on Jews and racial theories such as Eugenics. Younger people may not remember that the most intelligent and cultured people can turn into barbarians in a moment.



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Offline Zelhar

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2009, 04:11:45 PM »
Don't 'omnipotent' cells also have the potential to become a person  ?

Offline Daleksfearme

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2009, 05:15:00 PM »
What is so very sad about this is that ESC research is no longer viewed amongst many scientists as being a needed area of study, and in fact, is irrelevant.

There are about 200 different types of cells in the human body. The signals that cause these cells to become specialized are being worked out and the complete language of these signals will be known in just a few years. Once that information is at hand there will not be a need for ESCs

Instead, if a organ needs to be replaced, all that will need to be done is to take a cell from that person, any cheek or skin cell will do just fine. That cell will be sent the chemical signals that are the code for the needed cell, say a heart muscle cell. Once this cell has been re-programed, it will divide and a whole batch of heart muscle cells will be sitting in a petri dish waiting to be implanted. Any cell can be re-programed to become any other type of cell in this way. Because the inital cell is from the person who will be getting the newly minted cells, there are no rejection or other issues.  Stem cells no longer hold the only, or even the best way to improve medicine.

So, we are killing babies for no reason at all, only to preserve the funding and Jobs of those who would murder a whole generation of children so they can get their fat grants.
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Offline muman613

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2009, 05:20:57 PM »
Very interesting article which states what I was just saying above. I just read this article about ten minutes ago...

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Can_Intellect_Replace_Morality$.asp


"
Can Intellect Replace Morality?
by Jeff Jacoby


Intelligence is no guarantee of goodness.

Peter Singer has written a new book. The prominent Australian philosopher, a professor of bioethics at Princeton University, argues in The Life You Can Save that residents of the affluent West have it within their power to eradicate extreme Third World poverty and its attendant suffering. By donating money to charity instead of spending it on things we don't really need, he writes, everyone can save lives -- and when you fail to do so, he suggests, "you are leaving a child to die, a child you could have saved."

Singer told the Wall Street Journal last week that he tries to practice what he preaches by giving one-third of his income to "Oxfam and other organizations working in the field." Few of us can give away that much of our earnings, but Singer urges most people to donate between 1 percent and 5 percent of what they make to help the destitute, with those who earn more digging even deeper.

You don't have to be a disciple of Singer's philosophy to admire his commitment to charity, especially when you consider the tightfistedness of some of our leading public figures. I salute Singer's generosity, and sincerely hope that his new book prompts many readers to do more for the needy than they have ever thought about doing before.

And yet I can't help wondering which will ultimately prove more influential -- Singer's efforts to save lives through charity, or the role he has played as an intellectual enabler for the modern culture of death.

In 2005, Foreign Policy marked its 35th anniversary by asking several thinkers to speculate on what ideas or values taken for granted today will vanish in the next 35 years. "The sanctity of life," answered Singer, looking forward to the day when "only a rump of hard-core, know-nothing religious fundamentalists will defend the view that every human life, from conception to death, is sacrosanct." A year earlier, pronouncing "the whole edifice of Judeo-Christian morality . . . terminally ill," Singer had elaborated on his notorious view that it ought to be lawful to kill severely disabled infants. "All I am saying," he told The Independent, "is, why limit the killing to the womb? Nothing magical happens at birth. Of course infanticide needs to be strictly legally controlled and rare -- but it should not be ruled out, any more than abortion."

Perhaps it seems odd that the same individual can be a champion of both saving life through philanthropy and ending life through legalized infanticide. Yet if morality is merely a matter of opinion and preference -- if there is no overarching ethical code that supersedes any value system we can contrive for ourselves -- then why not value the lives of the impoverished above the lives of the disabled? Singer accepts that some of what he says "seems obscene and evil if you are still looking at it through the prism of the old morality." But give up that "old morality," and the objections are easily resolved.

In his Wall Street Journal interview, Singer spoke of dilemmas that may arise in the future when parents are able to select the genetic traits of their offspring. "I would not oppose selecting for intelligence," he says. "We could assume that people of higher intelligence would have good consequences for society."

Could we, though? Does higher intelligence always, or even usually, lead to "good consequences?" Like strength or agility or attractiveness, intelligence is only a gift, not a guarantee -- an asset that can as readily be used to harm others as to help them. Singer's faith in intelligence is consistent with his own life's work, but highly intelligent people are perfectly capable of monstrousness. Reason, education, and intellectual quickness are to be prized, but they are no substitute for good character, kindness, and ethical values. In the 20th century, after all, it was learned intellectuals who signed newspaper ads supporting Stalin, and men with PhDs who planned Hitler's Final Solution.

Intelligence alone will not make the world a better place, and if anyone's career proves the point, it is Singer's. Over the years, he has turned his skill to rationalizing bestiality, proposing a 28-day period during which newborns could be killed, and concluding that breeding children for spare parts is "not . . . something really wrong in itself." And why not? Once you've jettisoned the "old morality," good and evil become just a matter of opinion. "Man without G-d is a beast," wrote Whittaker Chambers, "never more beastly than when he is most intelligent about his beastliness."

This article originally appeared in the Boston Globe.
"
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline GoIsraelGo!

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2009, 07:34:31 PM »
The issue in Jewish thought seems to me to be very explicit. I have read that organ donation is approved by several prominent Rabbis and I understand this, again because it will save lives. But in the case of Embryonic Stem Cell research it is not proven that anything special will result. The reason that this material will be discarded is not very relevant in my opinion. Every part of us is special, from our souls to our bodies. The principle which makes this research un-kosher, in my opinion, is that all life is like animal life. I believe every cell in my body is a part of me and should be removed from the world when I pass. All human life is precious and if this research causes destruction of potential human beings then I question its ethical foundation. It is scary when people like Hissler Yemach Shemo used such technologies to experiment on Jews and racial theories such as Eugenics. Younger people may not remember that the most intelligent and cultured people can turn into barbarians in a moment.



To me stem cell research is a bit evil. Firstly it is potential life, secondly if G-d wanted man to have a cure for people with neck injuries, it would have happened already. G-d allowed man to come up with penicillin, G-d allowed man to go to the moon, G-d allowed men to learn how to give life saving surgeries.
Organ transplants, chemo therapy to save cancer victims. Muman, I do agree about G-d testing man, G-d wants to see if man's greed is more powerful than his sense of compassion and morals.

G-d may be watching and thinking; " Yeah, keep it up..I gave you brains to create cures, but those were not enough, you want more and more! "

Offline cjd

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2009, 07:43:30 PM »
Im pretty upset with the lifting of the ban on embryonic stem cell research. The loss in the value of life is immense. Now people may kill unborn children in order to harvest cells which will extend their lives. There are serious moral and ethical issues which are being completely ignored by an administration and a profession which intends to deny the existence of the Creator of the Universe.

It is especially important for Jews who read this to realize that the aspect of Haman which causes him to hate the Jew is  the fact that Amalek denies Hashem and tries to prove that everything that happens in this world is a result of nature. A true servant of Hashem can see through the veil that everything that happens is because of Hashem. This Embroynic Stem cell research is a way to test us, do we see the beauty of life and value it, or do we just see life as genetic material which can be used as if we were animals.



To be accurate, there was never a ban on stem cell research.  There was a ban on government funding of stem cell research, but there was certainly no legal prohibition on it.  Private companies were allowed and are allowed to do it.  Obama's lifting of this so-called ban, will now have government fund it.  Personally, I'm undecided on this issue.  A stem cell is not a life (I don't think), it's a potential life, so I have trouble equating it with abortion.  The other thing to consider is that these stem-cells are donated to fertility clinics and most will be discarded anyway.  Given that they are going to be discarded, isn't it better that they are used for research which will potentially lead to cures of things like multiple sclerosis?  I'm not set in my opinion.  I've had a hard time with this issue.

To be even more accurate... there was a ban on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research other than the 20 or so lines that already had existed when the ban was enacted.

Regardless this is all a moot point... as Embryonic stem cell research is a farce... since there is FAR more promise and potential in tweaking adult stem cells into a omnipotent state.

I agree with the last part of your post 100%. From everything I hear on this issue adult cells are the way to go. I think the shvartza president just wanted to have it on record that he reversed President Bush's decision not to fund any new Embryonic cell research. 
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Offline Xoce

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2009, 07:45:46 PM »
Im pretty upset with the lifting of the ban on embryonic stem cell research. The loss in the value of life is immense. Now people may kill unborn children in order to harvest cells which will extend their lives. There are serious moral and ethical issues which are being completely ignored by an administration and a profession which intends to deny the existence of the Creator of the Universe.

It is especially important for Jews who read this to realize that the aspect of Haman which causes him to hate the Jew is  the fact that Amalek denies Hashem and tries to prove that everything that happens in this world is a result of nature. A true servant of Hashem can see through the veil that everything that happens is because of Hashem. This Embroynic Stem cell research is a way to test us, do we see the beauty of life and value it, or do we just see life as genetic material which can be used as if we were animals.



To be accurate, there was never a ban on stem cell research.  There was a ban on government funding of stem cell research, but there was certainly no legal prohibition on it.  Private companies were allowed and are allowed to do it.  Obama's lifting of this so-called ban, will now have government fund it.  Personally, I'm undecided on this issue.  A stem cell is not a life (I don't think), it's a potential life, so I have trouble equating it with abortion.  The other thing to consider is that these stem-cells are donated to fertility clinics and most will be discarded anyway.  Given that they are going to be discarded, isn't it better that they are used for research which will potentially lead to cures of things like multiple sclerosis?  I'm not set in my opinion.  I've had a hard time with this issue.

To be even more accurate... there was a ban on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research other than the 20 or so lines that already had existed when the ban was enacted.

Regardless this is all a moot point... as Embryonic stem cell research is a farce... since there is FAR more promise and potential in tweaking adult stem cells into a omnipotent state.


yes.
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Offline Xoce

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2009, 07:49:56 PM »
What is so very sad about this is that ESC research is no longer viewed amongst many scientists as being a needed area of study, and in fact, is irrelevant.

There are about 200 different types of cells in the human body. The signals that cause these cells to become specialized are being worked out and the complete language of these signals will be known in just a few years. Once that information is at hand there will not be a need for ESCs

Instead, if a organ needs to be replaced, all that will need to be done is to take a cell from that person, any cheek or skin cell will do just fine. That cell will be sent the chemical signals that are the code for the needed cell, say a heart muscle cell. Once this cell has been re-programed, it will divide and a whole batch of heart muscle cells will be sitting in a petri dish waiting to be implanted. Any cell can be re-programed to become any other type of cell in this way. Because the inital cell is from the person who will be getting the newly minted cells, there are no rejection or other issues.  Stem cells no longer hold the only, or even the best way to improve medicine.

So, we are killing babies for no reason at all, only to preserve the funding and Jobs of those who would murder a whole generation of children so they can get their fat grants.

yes again!

Let me add this, from Dr. Nancy, via Atlasshrugs.com http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/03/stem-cell-decision-predictable-and-unfortunate.html

Quote
It's unnecessary cuz there's no change in this issue. Conservatives don't like embryos created for parts, for destruction, and libs love it because it justifies abortion and discarded fetal products adding some noble cause to their immorality (promiscuity and murder). The whole adult stem cell vs. embryonic is a debate that goes round and round with both sides dug in so you don't get anywhere with that although the greater success does seem to be with adult stem cells. Personally, I think this let's use life to advance life is like saying "they were just going to throw out those Holocaust victims anyway so why not use them for medical experiments...or at least to make a human-skin wallet, you were going to throw them out anyway." Maybe we shouldn't have created human embryos so lightly in the first place, instead of being so comfortable with the way we throw them out. Of course Obama jumped on this, he's a dedicated leftist and cannot advance their godless agenda fast enough. This type of research was already going on, we just didn't want to federally fund it, but we're throwing taxpayer dollars at everything else so...it's all predictable and unfortunate.

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2009, 08:24:32 PM »
Im pretty upset with the lifting of the ban on embryonic stem cell research. The loss in the value of life is immense. Now people may kill unborn children in order to harvest cells

I'm afraid you do not know what you are talking about.   This is not what stem cell research is about AT ALL.  No "unborn" babies get "killed" in order to do embryonic stem cell research.   In fact, the embryonic stem cell lines that were in use previously (Bush put a ban on deriving additional lines, but not against using the ones already in existence), these were all derived from "leftover" embryos from IVF (In Vitro Fertilization procedure for infertile couples) that were going to be discarded - ie thrown in the trash or frozen indefinitely until they lose potency.   The IVF procedure creates many embryos but only one of which is implanted into the female.  The rest are thrown in the trash.  Rather than throw out the pre-implantation embryos (day 8 or so of post-"conception" development - and in Jewish law, this is NOT yet considered a life - only a potential life), the researchers instead harvest the cells and grow them in petri dishes in order to derive potential treatments and cures that will save lives and relieve suffering, and also lead to a much greater understanding of some of the worst diseases that currently afflict mankind.

Quote
  There are serious moral and ethical issues which are being completely ignored
   That's not true.   And morally, stem cell research done responsibly is NOT against halacha.   Other religions can say whatever they want, but our moral system - the Torah - does not oppose this research. 

It is actually Bush's ban that really had no basis and strongly hampered research efforts for no particularly enunciated reason.  There was NOT a ban on IVF procedures, while there are certainly plenty of kids that can be adopted by infertile couples.   And yet there was a ban on using the leftover embryos instead of throwing them in the trash.    That was completely illogical, and ignored true moral principles to appeal to ignorant masses.

Quote
It is especially important for Jews who read this to realize that the aspect of Haman which causes him to hate the Jew is  the fact that Amalek denies Hashem and tries to prove that everything that happens in this world is a result of nature. A true servant of Hashem can see through the veil that everything that happens is because of Hashem. 

  None of this contradicts a person who wholeheartedly wants to help people (ya know, chesed), and a Jew who works within what is permitted by halacha in order to help people by working in scientific research or the medical field.   

Quote
This Embroynic Stem cell research is a way to test us, do we see the beauty of life and value it,
  One can see the beauty of the nature G-d created and seek to explore it, understand it, and use the tools G-d has provided us with in order to improve lives and build a better world.  This is a way to enlighten one's soul and beautify one's life experience as well as the world.   As long as this is within halachic standards, what is the problem? 

Quote
or do we just see life as genetic material which can be used as if we were animals.
   Not sure where you were going with this, but this is not at all connected to the topic at hand.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2009, 08:29:57 PM »

To be even more accurate... there was a ban on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research other than the 20 or so lines that already had existed when the ban was enacted.

Regardless this is all a moot point... as Embryonic stem cell research is a farce... since there is FAR more promise and potential in tweaking adult stem cells into a omnipotent state.


This reflects the misinformation coming out of the "stem cells = abortion" camp, but being that I know a fair amount about this subject, I'll let you know that this is simply not true, and the ability of ES cells is incomparable.   To reverse adult stem cells back to an ES-like state is a difficult task indeed, and if you notice, the adult stem cell only becomes AS USEFUL as an ES cell when it is transformed to an ES-like state.   That just goes to show how limited it is as an adult cell (for certain research).   And I know for a fact there are limitations to the adult cells, which is why they even want to induce to a totipotent state in the first place.   

But when you say
Quote
Embryonic stem cell research is a farce
   This is weak and unfounded propaganda.   Rather sad.

Offline Christian Zionist

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2009, 08:33:19 PM »
These liberal Obama has no regard for human life.
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2009, 08:43:27 PM »
The issue in Jewish thought seems to me to be very explicit.

Seems?   Looks can be deceiving.   Bring a source.

Quote
But in the case of Embryonic Stem Cell research it is not proven that anything special will result.

Yes, and until they discovered/tested it, penicillin wasn't proven to result in anything special either.

Quote
The reason that this material will be discarded is not very relevant in my opinion.  
The choice is garbage can, vs. life-saving medical research.   Let's send it to the labs instead of the garbage can.

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I believe every cell in my body is a part of me and should be removed from the world when I pass.


Interesting.  Did you know that millions of cells in your body die each second?   And that your bone marrow produces about 200 billion new red blood cells each day?


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It is scary when people like Hissler Yemach Shemo used such technologies to experiment on Jews and racial theories such as Eugenics.  
 

He wasn't doing embryonic stem cell research.   The things he did were evil.  Why would you make such a comparison?   Is all science evil because the Nazis used "science" to do evil things?      Please keep in mind that there are standards in place for modern science and that westernized nations follow the type of protocols that INCLUDE ethics and exclude certain practices which are deemed crude, inhumane, cruel, etc.   Even for animal research, there are protocols in the US for how to treat rats and mice.  A person cannot just abuse them.   Or act on one's whim.   So don't make a sweeping condemnation of science.   (BTW, the Rambam, Ramban, and other great chachamim were famous physicians who employed all the greatest science of their day to treat people and earn a parnassa with which to learn the Torah).    Rather than sweeping generalizations and comparisons to Nazis, instead lets focus on this one issue and tell me why it is right or wrong.   Frankly, I don't see a moral problem with it at all.  

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2009, 08:47:35 PM »
What is so very sad about this is that ESC research is no longer viewed amongst many scientists as being a needed area of study, and in fact, is irrelevant.

You couldn't be more wrong.   The only "scientists" saying this are the ones who are opposed to using ES cells due to their religious convictions.   Convictions which I as a Jew do not agree with.   It may be wishful thinking, but objectively speaking, it is simply not true at all that ES cells are not a promising field of study that could lead to many many cutting edge discoveries to advance medicine.   They still are, and those who pushed for the funding for this research were not doing so just to "be evil."   They believe in the research, that it can work, and that it is the best option.

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So, we are killing babies for no reason at all, only to preserve the funding and Jobs of those who would murder a whole generation of children so they can get their fat grants.

Nobody is killing babies.   Except those who have abortions.    What you said is grossly ignorant and represents a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is and how it works.    No one is getting grants in order to kill babies or kill anything. 

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2009, 08:49:59 PM »
G-d may be watching and thinking; " Yeah, keep it up..I gave you brains to create cures, ..............but those were not enough, you want more and more! "


Yes, brains with which to study the promising attributes and abilities of embryonic stem cells which G-d has imbued them with in order for us to create cures.   We weren't supposed to close our eyes to penicillin, so why should we close our eyes to this?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2009, 08:52:35 PM »

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It's unnecessary cuz there's no change in this issue. Conservatives don't like embryos created for parts, for destruction, and libs love it because it justifies abortion and discarded fetal

Yeah, someone who says "cuz" is real credible.  What a professional!

Interesting how she says FETAL.   Embryonic is by definition NOT FETAL, but EMBRYONIC.   An embryo is not a fetus.  A week-old embryo is certainly not even close to being a fetus.   

Hold on while I quote Muamar Qaddafi, he's a real expert and can add some credibility to this issue for sure!   {/sarcasm}

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2009, 09:11:16 PM »
Kahane Was Right, I can't believe you. This is murder and it is absolutely indefensible under any religion. These unborn human beings are spare-parts reservoirs? This is exactly the attitude that led to six million Jews being fogged to death in insecticide chambers and burned alive. I am 100% with Muman on this issue.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2009, 09:16:16 PM »
Kahane Was Right, I can't believe you. This is murder and it is absolutely indefensible under any religion. These unborn human beings are spare-parts reservoirs? This is exactly the attitude that led to six million Jews being fogged to death in insecticide chambers and burned alive. I am 100% with Muman on this issue.

Would you drop the Nazi comparisons already.   Abortion is wrong.   That is against halacha.   Stem cell research is not.   
You obviously have not read a single thing I wrote in this thread.   Because otherwise there is no way to conclude what you wrote!     

Throwing in the garbage can vs. using for medical research - that is the choice.   The attitude to throw in the garbage can is simply blind and illogical.    The attitude to put an embryo to use instead of throwing it in the garbage can is an attitude that led to Jews being murdered?   Don't lecture to me about the Shoah (it doesn't intimidate me, and it in fact makes your position look even more untenable resorting to such cheap, wormlike tactics), and don't tell me about the Jewish religion - "under any religion" - you are in no place to start lecturing on any religion other than your own.   You are clearly clueless!   Stem cell research is not murder.   And it's not abortion either.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2009, 09:30:53 PM »
Save it for someone who cares. Your views here are nothing short of hideous.

Offline briann

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2009, 09:34:35 PM »

To be even more accurate... there was a ban on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research other than the 20 or so lines that already had existed when the ban was enacted.

Regardless this is all a moot point... as Embryonic stem cell research is a farce... since there is FAR more promise and potential in tweaking adult stem cells into a omnipotent state.


This reflects the misinformation coming out of the "stem cells = abortion" camp, but being that I know a fair amount about this subject, I'll let you know that this is simply not true, and the ability of ES cells is incomparable.   To reverse adult stem cells back to an ES-like state is a difficult task indeed, and if you notice, the adult stem cell only becomes AS USEFUL as an ES cell when it is transformed to an ES-like state.   That just goes to show how limited it is as an adult cell (for certain research).   And I know for a fact there are limitations to the adult cells, which is why they even want to induce to a totipotent state in the first place.   

But when you say
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Embryonic stem cell research is a farce
   This is weak and unfounded propaganda.   Rather sad.

I too know quite a bit about this subject, and you woulda have been right 5 years ago. but now even the most so-called progressive people in the stem-cell world have conceded that this IS NO LONGER THE CASE.  There are SO MANY methods in the pipeline to reprogram adult cells to either pluripotent or potentially-omnipotent forms, that by the time embryonic stem cells become of real use...  there is a VERY high probability that they will be prohibitively useless since the same will be able to be done with these new techniques for FAR cheaper and practical and without ever needing such questionable and costly methods such as therapeutic cloning.

And its not just 1 method in the pipeline.. .its a half dozen.

Heres an example (One of many) of its practical use.  Again there are MORE than JUST this technique.. but this one is the furthest along.. since its showing huge promise in Humans.

http://www.examiner.com/x-4603-Boston-Health-News-Examiner~y2009m3d5-Stem-cell-breakthrough-spells-hope-for-patients-with-Parkinsons-disease

By the way.... dont assume that we all think exactly the same in this forum.  I too used to be very much in favor of embryonic stem cell research.. as I am FAR more secular than many here.  I also am a member of the imminst.org and they have been pushing embryonic stem cell research forever... HOWEVER... many of the members are conceding that it may NEVER be practical... and may even be a waste of time... BECAUSE there seems to be SO MUCH MORE potential with these new breakthroughs of reprogramming.  

Even the left-wing media has stopped pushing this as a major issue.   They have been embarrassed by the extraordinary progress of adult cell re-programing... and find it harder and harder to justify their position.









Offline Lisa

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Re: Im against embryonic stem cell research
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2009, 09:40:13 PM »
People!  Let's stop the fighting.  

If embryonic stem cells were so useful, how is it that there hasn't been news of private drug companies successfully making use of them?  If they have, and I missed it, please provide a link, or links.  I personally think this whole argument about government funding for ESC research is nothing but a back handed way to keep abortion on demand lega.

On another note, there are also umbilical chord stem cells, which may also be promising.  What do you guys think of that?