Pope will be allowed to wear Christian Cross at KOTEL

[cjd]

Why does he have to come and profane the holy place? Is this a part of some kind of plot?

muman613,

Is this more conspiracy B.S.?

Conspiracy B.S? Well surely Muman is being so unreasonable given the Catholic Church's historical stance on Jews. I mean come on, we have always been treated so well by the Catholic Church 

It's surely not a popular topic for the forum so I won't say too much. But the fact is, historically, they have done to us worse than Muslims. We Jews are notorious for having a short memory.

It's an old old story Nadav. You keep worrying about the Pope and the muzzies will cook your goose.

[Nadav]

Why does he have to come and profane the holy place? Is this a part of some kind of plot?

muman613,

Is this more conspiracy B.S.?

Conspiracy B.S? Well surely Muman is being so unreasonable given the Catholic Church's historical stance on Jews. I mean come on, we have always been treated so well by the Catholic Church 

It's surely not a popular topic for the forum so I won't say too much. But the fact is, historically, they have done to us worse than Muslims. We Jews are notorious for having a short memory.

It's an old old story Nadav. You keep worrying about the Pope and the muzzies will cook your goose.

Listen, the pope isn't at the top of my list of worries. But the day he stops pardoning holocaust bishops, and stops the urging of prayers to convert Jews, then I'll stop worrying. We have every right to express concern, he does have quite the following.......

And bullcat, please don't take my words out of context. I said HISTORICALLY, I don't mean today.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

It may sound good for multiculturism but it is just as, if not more, against the word of Hashem as the ugly mosque which sits on the temple mount.

I understand your feelings about the pope visiting the Western Wall, but I don't see how it is worse than Islam.

[Lisa]

This whole business about the Pope visiting the Western Wall is nothing new.  The previous Pope, John Paul also visited the Western Wall, and even put a hand written note in one of the holes in the wall basically apologizing for the RCC's past treatment of Jews. 

[Dagger]

Why does he have to come and profane the holy place? Is this a part of some kind of plot?

muman613,

Is this more conspiracy B.S.?

Conspiracy B.S? Well surely Muman is being so unreasonable given the Catholic Church's historical stance on Jews. I mean come on, we have always been treated so well by the Catholic Church  


It's surely not a popular topic for the forum so I won't say too much. But the fact is, historically, they have done to us worse than Muslims. We Jews are notorious for having a short memory.

Nadav,

While I must agree that Muman is being "so unreasonable", you display a logic, given these circumstances, that leads me to believe that YOU probably voted for Ba-lack Hussein Obonga, and would have marched for civil rights in the south!! In short, your logic is that of a dunce.  


 

[Nadav]

Why does he have to come and profane the holy place? Is this a part of some kind of plot?

muman613,

Is this more conspiracy B.S.?

Conspiracy B.S? Well surely Muman is being so unreasonable given the Catholic Church's historical stance on Jews. I mean come on, we have always been treated so well by the Catholic Church  


It's surely not a popular topic for the forum so I won't say too much. But the fact is, historically, they have done to us worse than Muslims. We Jews are notorious for having a short memory.

Nadav,

While I must agree that Muman is being "so unreasonable", you display a logic, given these circumstances, that leads me to believe that YOU probably voted for Ba-lack Hussein Obonga, and would have marched for civil rights in the south!! In short your logic is that of a dunce.  


 

Mr. Obtuse over here  Even sarcasm as clear as day seems to escape some people.

[cjd]

Why does he have to come and profane the holy place? Is this a part of some kind of plot?

muman613,

Is this more conspiracy B.S.?

Conspiracy B.S? Well surely Muman is being so unreasonable given the Catholic Church's historical stance on Jews. I mean come on, we have always been treated so well by the Catholic Church 

It's surely not a popular topic for the forum so I won't say too much. But the fact is, historically, they have done to us worse than Muslims. We Jews are notorious for having a short memory.

It's an old old story Nadav. You keep worrying about the Pope and the muzzies will cook your goose.

Listen, the pope isn't at the top of my list of worries. But the day he stops pardoning holocaust bishops, and stops the urging of prayers to convert Jews, then I'll stop worrying. We have every right to express concern, he does have quite the following.......

And bullcat, please don't take my words out of context. I said HISTORICALLY, I don't mean today.

Honestly there are not enough Jews in the world today that would be open to conversion by the RCC to make it worth the effort. In all honesty I never saw the RCC proselytize anyone. They have flocks of third world people that come to their doors every day on their own accord. Historically the church has had a less then stellar record when it comes to relations with the Jewish people however in the last 50 to 60 years the church has really tried to mend fences. This forum is a fusion of  Jewish and Gentile members all working together for a common goal. More and more it seems that some members here really would rather the Gentile members  find new digs. We have lost many members already because of threads like this it would be sad to turn away even more as well as prospective new members.

[Dagger]

Why does he have to come and profane the holy place? Is this a part of some kind of plot?

muman613,

Is this more conspiracy B.S.?

Conspiracy B.S? Well surely Muman is being so unreasonable given the Catholic Church's historical stance on Jews. I mean come on, we have always been treated so well by the Catholic Church  


It's surely not a popular topic for the forum so I won't say too much. But the fact is, historically, they have done to us worse than Muslims. We Jews are notorious for having a short memory.

Nadav,

While I must agree that Muman is being "so unreasonable", you display a logic, given these circumstances, that leads me to believe that YOU probably voted for Ba-lack Hussein Obonga, and would have marched for civil rights in the south!! In short your logic is that of a dunce.  


 

Mr. Obtuse over here  Even sarcasm as clear as day seems to escape some people.

Nadav,

I know sarcasm when I see it, and i know dunce logic when I read it...you sir, displayed the latter more than once!

[muman613]

Hashem wants the Jews to rely on Hashem himself, not on any other religions... If the other relgions truly have good motives then their work will be to help Hashem in bringing about the Messianic age. If there are those who are seeking to convert Jews they are working against the will of G-d. Do you think that when the Jews were slaves in Egypt they should have asked the nations of the world to help them? Even if they did do you think they would have?

I certainly appreciate all those who help make sure Israel is a safe place for Jews to live. But I am very upset at those missionaries in Israel who are trying to lead Jews astray to worship other G-ds. I read yesterday that there is a missionary group in Israel which has published Passover Haggadahs which innocently insert non-Jewish ideas into the Passover story. This is an obvious attempt at poisoning the Jewish people who think they are observing one of the most sacred Holidays the Jew can observe {Passover}. Passover is the remembering of the Exodus from Egypt. It is Hashems act of Mercy on the Jewish people where the people were actually able to sense and feel the presence of the L-rd. Those missionaries should be ejected from Israel and the Haggadahs should be burned.

Also I see that things have gotten personal in this thread again. I wish those non-Jews would have some understanding why religious Jews would be wary of non-Jews who want to help. Throughout history the Jewish people have been tormented by Christians and Muslims and only in the last century have things lightened up for the Jewish people. The memory of abuse at the hands of Christian mobs and pogroms throughout Europe do not just go away overnight. I don't hold any Christians today personally responsible but they are carrying on a foreign {to a Jew} ideology and Jews will not give up their allegience to G-d so easily. I can quote in Torah several portions which describe what will happen to the Jewish people if this should happen.

I am not happy about a lot of things with this Pope. He has turned back relations with the Jewish people quite a bit. I felt something was wrong when it was learned he was a part of Hislers youth during his younger days. You may argue he was only a kid but I am sure that some of that Nazi ideology is a part of his being. Was this just a coincidence? I don't think so...

Petition to remove Missionary Haggadah from Amazon.com Judaism section

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Special/Petition/
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/130432

[Lisa]

Actually I see this visit as just public relations.  I think Jews in Israel and the rest of the world should be more concerned about how Israel is voluntarily dismembering herself.  Being observant is all well and good, but you need to follow that up with good deeds, like making sure Israel stops trying to commit suicide. 

[muman613]

Actually I see this visit as just public relations.  I think Jews in Israel and the rest of the world should be more concerned about how Israel is voluntarily dismembering herself.  Being observant is all well and good, but you need to follow that up with good deeds, like making sure Israel stops trying to commit suicide. 

Very true... I dont think this issue is a major one... But it is ideological and Jews should at least consider what the effect will be on Jewish continuity.

[muman613]

One final thought on this issue (I hope):

Remember from the Purim story which we read a little more than a week ago... Haman the evil antisemite wanted all the Jews to bow to him when he entered the room. Most Jews didn't think this was too much to ask. But as Mordechi pointed out, Haman wore an Idol on his lapel and whenever a Jew bowed to him the Jew was worshipping the idol {in its proscribed manner} and he told all Jews to not bow. Of course all Jews continued to bow out of fear of Hamans power. Mordechi did not bow to Haman because of the principle that a Jew should sacrifice his life before he worships an idol in its proscribed manner. Haman was furious and called for the destruction of all Jews in the entire world. All Jews reading this know what the outcome was...

[cjd]

muman I am interested in knowing what church or group the missionaries in Israel work under. I agree with you that the tainted Haggadahs should be burned.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

JTF has many great Catholic members, and we have always supported the concept of Jews and Catholics working together against our common Islamic enemy.

However, that does not mean that Jews should ignore or forget the long history of Vatican anti-Semitism.

While Hitler and the Nazis were murdering 6 million innocent Jews, the Vatican had full diplomatic relations with Nazi Germany throughout the holocaust. This is the same Vatican that refused to establish diplomatic relations with Israel until the 1990s. In other words, Hitler's Germany was acceptable, but the Jewish survivors of Hitler's Germany in Israel were not.

Many of the Nazi mass murderers were Catholics - Germany was one third Catholic, Austria was 95% Catholic, Poland was 90% Catholic. Every Sunday, Catholic priests would come to Auschwitz and the other death camps to perform mass for the Catholic concentration camp guards who were shoving Jewish babies into ovens. While the ovens were burning Jews alive in the background, the priests were performing mass.

When a Catholic is born, he is supposed to be baptised. The Church then sends the name of the baptised baby to Rome to be placed in the Vatican's baptismal records. A baptised Catholic remains a Catholic all of his life unless he is excommunicated by the Church. If he is excommunicated, his record is removed from the baptismal list in Rome. Many times in history, the Catholic Church excommunicated Catholics for disagreeing with some aspect of Church doctrine or policy.

But one baptised Catholic, Adolf Hitler, was never excommunicated by the church. To this day, his name remains in the baptismal records as a full member of the Church.

In fact, not a single Nazi mass murderer or war criminal was ever excommunicated by the Catholic Church. The murderers of 6 million Jews all remain full members of the church in the Roman baptismal records.

This is just a little of the history of the Church in regard to the holocaust. The Church also shielded thousands of Nazi war criminals after the holocaust.

I am not even going to go into the history of the crusades, the inquisitions and the pogroms which were ordered by the Vatican. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were slaughtered with a brutality that defies human imagination.

Now this same Vatican has the gall to give moral lectures to Israel about how to treat the Arab Muslim Nazis who surround the tiny Jewish state. The Vatican demands that Israel surrender everything, including her capital city of Jerusalem.

I am a strong advocate of Jews, Catholics, evangelical Christians, Orthodox, Hindus, Buddhists and all decent human beings working together to make this a better world. That means working against Islamic jihad and also against the self-hating leftists in Western countries.

But given the history of what the Vatican has done to my people, and continues to try to do, I cannot support the Pope visiting the Land of Israel.

Now that our members have expressed their views on this subject, I think we can close this thread.