Intermarriage

[Benjamin_D]

I am against intermarriage, but would like to hear your thoughts about this.

I know Deuteronomy says "You shall not intermarry with them: do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons. For you will turn you children away from Me to worship other gods...."

But what are your thoughts on this? Moses married Tziporra, who was the daughter of a Midianite priest. Esther was married to a the non-Jewish King Ahashverus.

Comments, thoughts....

[muman613]

I am against intermarriage, but would like to hear your thoughts about this.

I know Deuteronomy says "You shall not intermarry with them: do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons. For you will turn you children away from Me to worship other gods...."

But what are your thoughts on this? Moses married Tziporra, who was the daughter of a Midianite priest. Esther was married to a the non-Jewish King Ahashverus.

Comments, thoughts....

Shalom Benjamin_D,

You have raised a very interesting yet very sticky topic. Intermarriage is indeed forbidden to yidden as you have stated. In the case of Moshe it is very complex. Before Sinai it was not yet law and because of Yisros and Zipporahs conversion it was acceptable. You also realize some of the patriarchs did not obey the laws of sexual permission, as we know Lot and his daughters had relations as must have Noachs and Adams children.

In the case of Ester she was really married to Mordechai and it was told that she had remained Jewish in secret, still obeying Shabbat and the laws of Niddah. I believe she got away with being charming to king Ahashverus instead of having to 'do' anything with him. She knowingly sacrificed some of her neshama in order to save the Jewish people.

Having said all this it is very bad that we have intermarried. My family is ravaged by this plague and it angers me very much. We were brought up to believe that everyone is the same and why should we keep the promise of our ancestors. We are a special people and we should have not intermarried.

I hope that this plague stays away from all other Jews.

PS: Here is the story on Yisro, one of the greatest Righteous Gentiles the Torah tells.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/241,2114529/Tzipporah.html

Tzipporah, Yithro's daughter, was famous for her fine character and beauty. In Midyan, where she lived with her father and six sisters, people often talked of Tzipporah's kindness and wisdom. Many were the princes who came to Yithro, seeking the hand of his daughter in marriage.

To all suitors Yithro had but one answer: "In my garden there grows a wonderful staff. If your Royal Highness will get it out of the ground, Tzipporah will be yours."

Eagerly the suitor would go into the garden and up to that wonderful staff glittering in the sun with a million colors and hues. His first attempt to pull the staff out of the ground would bring no results. Again and again he would try to pull at the staff with all his might, but of no avail. The staff simply could not be dislodged from the ground. Thus the princes came hopefully, and left abashed and mystified. Tzipporah would often go into the garden, admire the wonderful staff and wonder who her husband would be.

But how did this wonderful staff come to be there? Well, it is quite a story.

The staff was as old as the world itself. When G-d created the world, He created that wonderful staff out of pure sapphire. On it were engraved the Hebrew letters of G-d's Name, and ten other mysterious letters.

G-d gave this staff to Adam to walk with it in the Garden of Eden. Later it turned up in the hands of the pious Noah, and he passed it on to Shem.

Shem passed it on to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob treasured it greatly, and before Jacob died in Egypt, he gave it to Joseph. When Joseph died, Yithro, who was one of Pharaoh's chief counsellors, took it. Returning to Midyan, Yithro planted it in his garden, and there it stuck in the ground and nobody could get it out again.

When Moses fled from Egypt and finally found refuge in Midyan, in the house of Yithro, he took a walk in the garden and saw the Divine staff. He barely touched it, when the staff almost jumped out of the ground. There he was, holding that Divine staff, and he brought it into the house.

Yithro knew then that Moses was a G-dly man. He offered him to become his son-in-law, and Moses gladly agreed.

It was with this Divine staff that Moses later performed all the miracles in Egypt at G-d's command. With this staff, too, Moses split the Red Sea, and brought water out of the rock.

This Divine staff will turn up again in the hands of Messiah, a descendant of David, who will once again perform wonderful miracles with it at G-d's command, when the hour of Israel's complete Redemption will come.

From Talks and tales, by Kehot Publication Society. Available at www.kehotonline.com

[muman613]

Q. The Torah calls Noah a righteous person, a tzaddik. Yet we read that he got drunk and exposed himself, and that something took place between him and one of his sons. What kind of a righteous person is this?

A. Ecclesiastes states flatly that "there is no righteous person in the world who does only good and does not sin" (7:20). Indeed, the Sages criticized Abraham, Jacob, Moses(1) and others, although their sins seem much less apparent than Noah's. The question to ask is, rather: what does a righteous person do after he sins? How does he respond?

Here the Torah is teaching a profound lesson. We can understand it by contrasting Noah's behavior with that of a much lesser figure: Lot, Abraham's nephew.

"Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him." One interpretation in the Talmud is that there had been a homosexual act.(2) There is a very similar story in Bereishit chapter 19. After the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his two daughters found themselves alone in the mountains. "The elder daughter said to the younger, 'Let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, and bear children from our father.' That night they made their father drink wine, and the elder daughter came and lay with her father. He was unaware of her lying down or of her getting up" (19:31-33).

Noah was drunk, but afterwards when sober he knew what had taken place between him and his son. How did he know? He wanted to know. A righteous person-the Noah-type- sins, but he gets up the next morning and tells G-d, "I'm not perfect. I've done what I shouldn't have and I haven't done what I should." He admits his own failings.

Lot was also drunk. Lot, too, sinned in his drunkenness, but "he was unaware of her lying down or of her getting up." The pseudo-righteous person, the Lot-type, does not recognize his sins. He cannot face his failings. Self-awareness is a threat to him. And, since he denies he sinned, he sins again. Lot's elder daughter lay with him the first night- is it any wonder his younger daughter lay with him the next? (19:35).

Imagine a confrontation between Noah and Lot. Lot would say, "You, Noah, are hardly a tzaddik. Look at what you did when you were drunk. And what kind of son have you raised?" What could Noah answer? That Lot, too, slept with his daughters? Lot denies everything! After all, he lived over ten years with his illustrious uncle and must have learned much from him. Didn't G-d send angels to save him alone from the destruction of Sodom? Certainly, such a person has cause to think he is special- perhaps not quite on the level of Abraham, but head and shoulders above everyone else!

Rather, the greatness of Noah lies in that he knew what he did. That is why the Torah could say in spite of his drunkenness, "Noah was a righteous person, he was wholesome in his generations" (6:9).

Notes

1. Abraham, Nedarim 32a; Jacob, Bereishit Rabbah 75:11; Moses, Yalkut Shimoni (Va'etchanan) 314.

2. Sanhedrin 70a; cf. Vayikra 20:17 where to "see nakedness" means to sin sexually. An aggadic interpretation is that Ham castrated his father- in which case Noah certainly knew what had been done to him.

[muman613]

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/265,57328/If-Esther-married-a-non-Jewish-king-why-are-Jews-against-intermarriage.html

Rabbi Silberberg:Good morning and welcome to Askmoses! How can I help you?

Miriam: Good morning Rabbi. Maybe you can help me. I'm reading the Purim story and there is something which is bothering me. If Esther was Jewish and she married a non-Jewish king, why are so many Jews against intermarriage?

Rabbi Silberberg: You understand that Esther's relationship with Ahasuerus wasn't consensual? In fact, according to the Talmud, Esther was already a happily married woman; married to her cousin Mordechai.

Miriam: So Esther wasn't interested in winning the "beauty contest"? That's not the impression I got in Hebrew school...

Rabbi Silberberg: Absolutely not. The Megillah says that while all the other maidens spent twelve months beautifying themselves with ointments and cosmetics in preparation for their royal rendezvous, Esther requested no beautifying agents at all.

Rabbi Silberberg: Esther's personal life is the often forgotten sad side of the story of Purim. Indeed she brought salvation for all her brethren--which certainly brought her great satisfaction--but the salvation came at a steep price. Our righteous heroine languished in a pagan palace for years. Bear in mind the savagery and corruption which typified royal courts of old.

Miriam: I guess this teaches us that one person's liberty and success is often the result of another's sacrifice.

Rabbi Silberberg: exactly.

Miriam: Thanks, and have a happy Purim.

Rabbi Silberberg: You too

[Benjamin_D]

Thanks for you input 

I like it.

[muman613]

I highly doubt that Esther was married to Mordechai.  Mordechai was her uncle who had adopted her as his daughter.  But if the king wanted her to be his wife, there wasn't really much she could do about it.  If it was her choice she probably would have married a Jewish man.

Then why do you think the Talmud tells us that they were married? Do you think the Talmud is not a part of the Jewish Tanakh?



http://www.jewishmag.com/88mag/esther/esther.htm

Esther, How Could She Do It?

Greg Elderberg

The Esther who saved the Jews by pleading with King Achasverous has become a stereotype for Jewish heroines. This is especially apparent on Purim when most young Jewish girls who dress up in costumes choose by a large majority to be "Queen Esther".

But in reality there is much to be considered when we recall the story of Esther. Especially in regards to the Talmud in the Tractate of the Megillah, page 13a, where the famous Rabbi Meir explains that Esther was in reality the wife of Mordecai.

Rabbi Meir was one of the greatest of the Rabbis from the Talmud. We can not ignore his remarks. There are implications to what he says that we must deal with as we will shortly relate.

The story of Esther tells us that after King Achasverous had Queen Vashti killed, his advisors made a competition between the young unmarried women to find the most beautiful and desirous person to become his queen. Although the contest was originally intended to include only unmarried women, Achasverous was not particular if the woman was married; to him her attractiveness was the most important factor. If the women had a husband, he would be gotten rid of easily. It was for this fear, that Esther did not declare to the authorities that she was married to Mordecai.

Esther was taken into the competition. Unlike the other girls who busied themselves with pretentious clothing and cosmetics to appeal to the eye of the king, Esther asked for nothing and went in to the king as she was - a beautiful soul. The king fell in love with Esther and immediately declared that only Esther was worthy of becoming his queen.

Esther refused to tell the king of her heritage or that she was married.

At this point we must ask the question that bothered the rabbis in the Talmud. If Esther was married to Mordecai, then sexual relations between a man and a married woman are forbidden. How could Esther who was considered a great Jewish personality live with Achasverous if she was married to Mordecai?

There are three cardinal sins: Promiscuity, Idolatry, and Murder. It is forbidden to commit one of these three cardinal sins even at the expense of one's own life. If a person is put into a position in which he is forced to commit one of these three cardinal sins, then he must sacrifice his life rather than trespass.

As an example, if a group of thugs come to a man and tell him they will kill him unless he has sexual relations with this specific married woman; he is not allowed to have sex with her. He must let himself be killed rather than sin.

Similarly, if a group of idolaters come and tell him that if he does not bow down to an idol he will be killed, he must not bow down to the idol, but rather let them kill him. There are some who say that this only applies if ten Jews are present.

The third cardinal sin is that of murder. If a group of thugs come and tell a man that he must kill another person, he must decline even though it means that they will kill him.

Esther presents a serious problem. How could she have sexual relations with Achasverous? According to Rabbi Meir she was married to Mordecai at the time!

The rabbis in the Talmud explain that Esther was not active. She was passive. It was Achasverous who was active; Esther had no choice. Had she resisted his advances she would have faced the same death that Vashti faced.

This is similar to the case of a rapist who comes upon a married woman. If the married woman is unwilling to have relations with him, but rather is forced, she is still permitted to her husband. It is only in the case of a married woman who is desirous of extra-marital relations, that she is forbidden to her husband and according to Jewish law faces the death penalty.

Until this point Esther was not guilty of a sin. Her relations with Achaverous were always when he called her.

The real question comes later when Esther and Mordecai discover Haman's wicked plot to kill all of the Jews. At Mordacai's insistence Esther is instructed to go to King Achasverous to intervene on the behalf of the Jewish people.

The rabbis in the Talmud note that until now Esther never when to Achasverous of her own volition. Rather, she would only go if he called for her. Because of this, she was considered a forced woman. However now that she must take the initiative to go to him, she leaves the category of being forced into relations with Achasverous. She now is considered consenting to be with him. This is eluded in the words that Esther says, "I will go into the king, not in accordance to the law, and as I am lost, so, I must be lost." (Esther 4:16) Esther in effect is saying to Mordecai that she realizes that what she is doing is not correct, and she stands the possibility of being totally lost forever to Mordecai, but she has not other choice.

The rabbis explain that this is called a sin for the sake of heaven. When people sin, they do it in order to derive some personal benefit. In this case, Esther sinned, but not for her own benefit, but for the benefit of the entire Jewish nation. This is considered a case of "mesirat nefesh", giving one's total being over for the sake of the glory of G-d.

This was the price that Esther had to pay to save the Jewish people. She was willing to sacrifice herself for the good of others. From this selfless act, she secured a place in the hearts and souls of all the Jewish people for all time. However, she became forbidden to her real husband, Mordecai for ever. Such was the self sacrifice that made her the all time Jewish heroine.

[muman613]

No, the Talmud is not part of the Jewish Tanach.  Tanach is an abbreviation, which means Torah, Nevi'im, and Ktuvim--The Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings, referring to the books of the Hebrew Bible.  Rabbis saying something in the Talmud doesn't make it true, and the Tanach trumps the rabbis.  If you want proof of this, look at how many rabbis make contradictory rulings where we have to choose to follow one or the other.  Fortunately there are enough of them out there that not all of them make incorrect assertions, so we can follow the ones who are correct.  Also, the book of Esther says that the beauty contest that Esther won was only for virgins.  If she was married to Mordechai she couldn't be a virgin.

Torah is composed of two parts, the Written Torah and the Oral Torah of which the Talmud, the Midrash the Mishna and the Gemora are a part of...

Check out this site:

http://www.closetotorah.com/archives/924

    …והנערה יפת תואר וטובת מראה ובמות אביה ואמה לקחה מרדכי לו לבת (אסתר ב:ז)

    The girl (Esther) possessed a beautiful appearance… and when her parents died, Mordechai took her as his daughter (Esther 2:7)

Chazal tell us (Megilla 13a) that the word “bas, daughter,” in this verse is to be read as “bayis, house,” meaning that in actuality Mordechai took Esther as his wife.

There are many lessons inherent in our verse, let us examine some of them as we attempt to resolve the many difficulties found in understanding this verse.

The Numerous Issues

The first problem is, why does the verse describe Esther as being taken as a daughter if it really means wife, why not just say wife?! Also, according to Chazal’s elucidation, how do we explain the word “bayis, house” this is a strange reference to marriage as well?

Let us site an additional source that is hard to understand as it will ultimately shed much light on this important topic. The Gemara (Sotah 12a) states, “he who marries a women for the sake of Heaven is considered to have given birth to her as his daughter.” At first glance, this statement seems perplexing and hard to understand. What are Chazal trying to teach us? What does it mean to marry L’shem Shamayim, for the sake of Heaven? What is the parable and benefit of considering her to be his daughter?! Very perplexing?!

The commentators are surprisingly silent on many of these issues. One line from the Ben Ish Chai, though, opens up the gates of understanding for us. He connects this Gemara to another statement of Chazal (Bava Basra 141a). “If your first child born is a daughter, this is a good sign for your children who follow!”

He ends by stating that if one marries a woman for the sake of Heaven, then her presence makes it as if you gave birth to a daughter first and thus it is good for your children who follow. This is his answer! But what does it mean?

This completes all of our quandaries regarding many cryptic words; now we will try to find a proper explanation!

PS: I have not heard a single Rabbi contradict the statement that Esther was Mordechais wife. I have heard this year after year. It is not a new idea... If you can find a Rabbi which refutes this, please provide a link...


More information @

http://www.torah.org/learning/women/class23.html
http://www.jewishmag.com/30MAG/esther/esther.htm
http://ohr.edu/ask/ask228.htm#Q3
http://www.aish.com/purimthemes/purimthemesdefault/Darkness_Before_the_Dawn.asp
http://www.aish.com/purimbasics/purimbasicsdefault/Lively_Megillah_Overview.asp

[muman613]

Torah in the Tanach is talking about the five books of Moses.  I do acknowledge that there is an Oral Torah, but what you have posted is one commentary.  There could be no instruction from Sinai that concerned Esther since her story happened much later.  And it is obvious that they are taking a word out of context.  בת means daughter, not house.

Read this, it explains how this meaning is derived...

http://www.closetotorah.com/archives/924

To Put It All Together

We now understand what it means to marry for the sake of Heaven. To see marriage as an opportunity for growing and encouraging Avodas Hashem together! To appreciate how Hashem created her from his bone and heart so that they can connect! As the Raavad writes, “the beauty of marriage is to be like one single body and entity, connected and working together.”

The Maharal (Ohr Chadash p. 114) states that this is what it means by “if one marries L’Shem Shamayim, she is like your daughter.” A daughter is built from you, she is an extension of you. The Torah wants you to view your wife as an extension of yourself. This is the most productive and beneficial outlook. It is meant in the most positive way, to be truly connected and close.

This is the exact meaning of marrying for the sake of Heaven and the explanation and benefit of considering her your daughter, your connection!

Our original verse is stating this as well. The verse began by stating that Esther was a most beautiful and attractive young lady! We know that her looks and charm even made her the winner of Achashvayrosh’s beauty contest. But this was not the sole focus of Mordechai. He married her for her qualities. She was someone to work and grow with. He viewed her as his daughter, an extension of himself, fulfilling Hashem’s plan for marriage!

What is the Bayis?

But still why do Chazal use the word bayis, house? The answer is that this ties everything together!

The Gemara quoted by the Ben Ish Chai stated that when a girl is born first this is good for the children who follow. He stated that if you marry L’Shem Shamayim you are considered to have had a daughter first already. What does this all mean?!

The Gemara there explains the benefit of this firstborn girl. As the oldest, she will care for and nurture all of her siblings under her! This is the benefit for her family! They will have a second loving and caring mother!

There is nothing that a parent would not do for their child. So if one asks what is the most important thing that I can do for can my children to prepare them for success? The answer is: the best thing you can do for your children is, love their mother! When children grow up in a warm and healthy environment this puts them at a great advantage for life!

If two people marry L’Shem Shamayim, to grow with their spouse in service of Hashem, they have shown that they will work together and be kind and considerate towards each other. They realize that she is his daughter, connected as one! Hence, they will work hard to have marital harmony. They will have the benefit of a loving and nurturing mother for she will be happy and encouraged by her husband who loves and believes in her. Their children will benefit from the “firstborn daughter” who cares for them so affectionately and carefully! A truly heartwarming and inspirational home! This I believe is the intention of the Ben Ish Chai and this I believe brings everything together.

Because she is the bas, they will have a beautiful bayis! May we all achieve these beautiful goals! The opportunity to live with this perspective is available every day!

[muman613]

Orthodox Judaism accepts Talmud as Holy writing. It is a part of Torah. Do you study from a Rabbi? If so could you please tell me what Orthodox Rabbi is teaching that Talmud is not Kadosh?

PS: Technically Talmud is not a part of Tanakh because it refers only to written Torah. But the term Torah {Teachings} encompasses all of Torah including the Oral tradition, without which there would be no way to observe Jewish tradition because Written Torah does not contain the HOW-TO achieve the mitzvot.

http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/14-27_Why_Did_Esther_Hide_Her_Jewish_Identity_-_2.htm

[Adrian Wainer]

I highly doubt that Esther was married to Mordechai.  Mordechai was her uncle who had adopted her as his daughter.  But if the king wanted her to be his wife, there wasn't really much she could do about it.  If it was her choice she probably would have married a Jewish man.

Then why do you think the Talmud tells us that they were married? Do you think the Talmud is not a part of the Jewish Tanakh?



http://www.jewishmag.com/88mag/esther/esther.htm

Esther, How Could She Do It?

Greg Elderberg

The Esther who saved the Jews by pleading with King Achasverous has become a stereotype for Jewish heroines. This is especially apparent on Purim when most young Jewish girls who dress up in costumes choose by a large majority to be "Queen Esther".

But in reality there is much to be considered when we recall the story of Esther. Especially in regards to the Talmud in the Tractate of the Megillah, page 13a, where the famous Rabbi Meir explains that Esther was in reality the wife of Mordecai.

Rabbi Meir was one of the greatest of the Rabbis from the Talmud. We can not ignore his remarks. There are implications to what he says that we must deal with as we will shortly relate.

The story of Esther tells us that after King Achasverous had Queen Vashti killed, his advisors made a competition between the young unmarried women to find the most beautiful and desirous person to become his queen. Although the contest was originally intended to include only unmarried women, Achasverous was not particular if the woman was married; to him her attractiveness was the most important factor. If the women had a husband, he would be gotten rid of easily. It was for this fear, that Esther did not declare to the authorities that she was married to Mordecai.

Esther was taken into the competition. Unlike the other girls who busied themselves with pretentious clothing and cosmetics to appeal to the eye of the king, Esther asked for nothing and went in to the king as she was - a beautiful soul. The king fell in love with Esther and immediately declared that only Esther was worthy of becoming his queen.

Esther refused to tell the king of her heritage or that she was married.

At this point we must ask the question that bothered the rabbis in the Talmud. If Esther was married to Mordecai, then sexual relations between a man and a married woman are forbidden. How could Esther who was considered a great Jewish personality live with Achasverous if she was married to Mordecai?

There are three cardinal sins: Promiscuity, Idolatry, and Murder. It is forbidden to commit one of these three cardinal sins even at the expense of one's own life. If a person is put into a position in which he is forced to commit one of these three cardinal sins, then he must sacrifice his life rather than trespass.

As an example, if a group of thugs come to a man and tell him they will kill him unless he has sexual relations with this specific married woman; he is not allowed to have sex with her. He must let himself be killed rather than sin.

Similarly, if a group of idolaters come and tell him that if he does not bow down to an idol he will be killed, he must not bow down to the idol, but rather let them kill him. There are some who say that this only applies if ten Jews are present.

The third cardinal sin is that of murder. If a group of thugs come and tell a man that he must kill another person, he must decline even though it means that they will kill him.

Esther presents a serious problem. How could she have sexual relations with Achasverous? According to Rabbi Meir she was married to Mordecai at the time!

The rabbis in the Talmud explain that Esther was not active. She was passive. It was Achasverous who was active; Esther had no choice. Had she resisted his advances she would have faced the same death that Vashti faced.

This is similar to the case of a rapist who comes upon a married woman. If the married woman is unwilling to have relations with him, but rather is forced, she is still permitted to her husband. It is only in the case of a married woman who is desirous of extra-marital relations, that she is forbidden to her husband and according to Jewish law faces the death penalty.

Until this point Esther was not guilty of a sin. Her relations with Achaverous were always when he called her.

The real question comes later when Esther and Mordecai discover Haman's wicked plot to kill all of the Jews. At Mordacai's insistence Esther is instructed to go to King Achasverous to intervene on the behalf of the Jewish people.

The rabbis in the Talmud note that until now Esther never when to Achasverous of her own volition. Rather, she would only go if he called for her. Because of this, she was considered a forced woman. However now that she must take the initiative to go to him, she leaves the category of being forced into relations with Achasverous. She now is considered consenting to be with him. This is eluded in the words that Esther says, "I will go into the king, not in accordance to the law, and as I am lost, so, I must be lost." (Esther 4:16) Esther in effect is saying to Mordecai that she realizes that what she is doing is not correct, and she stands the possibility of being totally lost forever to Mordecai, but she has not other choice.

The rabbis explain that this is called a sin for the sake of heaven. When people sin, they do it in order to derive some personal benefit. In this case, Esther sinned, but not for her own benefit, but for the benefit of the entire Jewish nation. This is considered a case of "mesirat nefesh", giving one's total being over for the sake of the glory of G-d.

This was the price that Esther had to pay to save the Jewish people. She was willing to sacrifice herself for the good of others. From this selfless act, she secured a place in the hearts and souls of all the Jewish people for all time. However, she became forbidden to her real husband, Mordecai for ever. Such was the self sacrifice that made her the all time Jewish heroine.

There are three cardinal sins: Promiscuity, Idolatry, and Murder. It is forbidden to commit one of these three cardinal sins even at the expense of one's own life. If a person is put into a position in which he is forced to commit one of these three cardinal sins, then he must sacrifice his life rather than trespass.

Is the concept of cardinal sins Jewish? In so so far as I know, promiscuity and idolatry are trumped by the requirement to preserve life, so for example it would be legitimate to engage in promiscuity and idolatry, if a Jewish girl needed to engage in both promiscuity and idolatry in order to infiltrate the SS during World War II she would be allowed to do that under Jewish law. As for murder, when is murder justifiable homicide?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer  

[muman613]

It is Talmud, Tractate Megillah 13b

http://theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?s=kehillas

"
4:16

The Gemora in Megillah (15a) interprets Esther’s words as lamenting that until this point, each time that she had relations with Achashverosh it was against her will. Now that she was voluntarily going in to him, it would be considered as if she was a willing participant.
The law is that a married woman who voluntarily has extramarital relations becomes forbidden to remain married to her husband (Yevamos 56b). Even after Esther married Achashverosh, she remained married to Mordechai and continued secretly having relations with him (Megillah 13b). However, this was only permitted as long as her interactions with Achashverosh were against her will. Now that she was willingly going in to have relations with him, she would be forbidden to Mordechai for the rest of her life.

Tosefos questions why Mordechai didn’t divorce Esther at this time, as any relations she would have while single – even voluntarily – wouldn’t prevent her from later remarrying him. Tosefos answers that giving one’s wife a get must be done in the presence of witnesses. Mordechai feared that the witnesses might absentmindedly talk about the event, which would eventually make its way to the ears of Achashverosh, thereby endangering the lives of himself, Esther, and the entire Jewish nation.

The Rashba questions why Mordechai didn’t give Esther a get written in his own handwriting, which effects a divorce even in the absence of witnesses. The Rashba answers cryptically אין משיבין על דברי אגדה – it isn’t always possible to ask or answer questions regarding homiletic passages.

The Noda BiYehuda (Yoreh Deah 2:161) was once asked to resolve a difficulty in a different homiletic passage. He begins his reply by describing how pressed he is for time to answer even the most pressing and practical questions which come before him and apologizes that he is unable to delve into the deep, complex subject at that time. He further justifies his actions by quoting the aforementioned Rashba, who writes that such questions can’t always be asked and may not have readily-apparent resolutions.

The overworked Noda BiYehuda then continues, “But now that I’ve mentioned the Rashba’s comment, let me tell you the answer to his question!” He suggests that as a historical fact, Mordechai did divorce Esther without witnesses using a get that he personally wrote, exactly as suggested by the Rashba.

If so, what is the explanation of the Gemora which understands Esther as mourning the fact that she would be eternally forbidden to Mordechai, which according to the Noda BiYehuda shouldn’t be the case? He innovatively explains that while it was possible for Mordechai to divorce Esther without attracting attention, thereby preventing her from becoming forbidden to him, there was no parallel option to subsequently remarry her. A wedding must be conducted in the presence of witnesses to take effect, leaving Esther technically permitted to him but forbidden for all practical purposes!
"

[muman613]

I am very amazed... This tractate Megillah which we are discussing I happened to discuss a couple of weeks ago concerning another statement in this Tractate...

The other statement in Megillah 13b is is "Hashem creates the cure before he sends the sickness"...

Also it is in this tractate the fact that Moshe was born and died on Adar 7.

I have not been able to find on the Internet this particular tractate... I am still looking for it..

[muman613]

I highly doubt that Esther was married to Mordechai.  Mordechai was her uncle who had adopted her as his daughter.  But if the king wanted her to be his wife, there wasn't really much she could do about it.  If it was her choice she probably would have married a Jewish man.

I guess I was off here, Mordechai was her cousin, not her uncle.  Here is the quote from Esther:

Esther 2: 5-7

5. There was a Judean man in Shushan the capital, whose name was Mordecai the son of Jair the son of Shimei the son of Kish, a Benjamite,         
6. who had been exiled from Jerusalem with the exile that was exiled with Jeconiah, king of Judah, which Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, had exiled.         
7. And he had brought up Hadassah, that is Esther, his uncle's daughter, for she had neither father nor mother, and the maiden was of comely form and of comely appearance, and when her father and mother died, Mordecai took her to himself for a daughter.

Yes, that is the story from the Megillah itself. But there has been much written about what their relationship was. If you just want to stay with Pshat, that is fine. But there is much meaning in the Megillah.

I have only been able to find this Shuir of Daf Yomi Tractate Megillah 13b

http://torahmedia.com/fetch.php?sid=4x1yi0jg143d021&cid=&dlid=4790220

[msd]

I think intermarriage is the bane of Jewish existence. I've heard it say that it is like your spirit leaves you when sleeping with a gentile. Jews should try to live among only themselves to avoid this. The temptation is always there.

[AsheDina]

I think intermarriage is the bane of Jewish existence. I've heard it say that it is like your spirit leaves you when sleeping with a gentile. Jews should try to live among only themselves to avoid this. The temptation is always there.

Maybe this is why Alex Jones is nuts?  He is married to a Jewish woman and he is a Gentile. Does it work for the vice/versa?

[Moshe92]

I think intermarriage is the bane of Jewish existence. I've heard it say that it is like your spirit leaves you when sleeping with a gentile. Jews should try to live among only themselves to avoid this. The temptation is always there.

Maybe this is why Alex Jones is nuts?  He is married to a Jewish woman and he is a Gentile. Does it work for the vice/versa?

That's weird. I have never heard that before. I don't know why a Jewish woman would marry him.

[AsheDina]

I think intermarriage is the bane of Jewish existence. I've heard it say that it is like your spirit leaves you when sleeping with a gentile. Jews should try to live among only themselves to avoid this. The temptation is always there.

Maybe this is why Alex Jones is nuts?  He is married to a Jewish woman and he is a Gentile. Does it work for the vice/versa?

That's weird. I have never heard that before. I don't know why a Jewish woman would marry him.

Why would ANY woman marry this NUT

[Moshe92]

I think intermarriage is the bane of Jewish existence. I've heard it say that it is like your spirit leaves you when sleeping with a gentile. Jews should try to live among only themselves to avoid this. The temptation is always there.

Maybe this is why Alex Jones is nuts?  He is married to a Jewish woman and he is a Gentile. Does it work for the vice/versa?

That's weird. I have never heard that before. I don't know why a Jewish woman would marry him.

Why would ANY woman marry this NUT

I agree. He thinks the swine flu is part of a conspiracy by elite government officials to take over the world and form a new world order.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Moses could perfectly marry any righteous Gentile woman before Mt Sinai, since Torah had not yet been given. At that time Jews and Gentiles alike were under the Noahide Laws. The Patriarchs kept some mitzvot from the Torah they knew before Sinai through prophesy out of their own free will. That's why Yaakov could marry Rachel and Leah even when they were sisters.
Regarding Esther, it is said that she was formally married but that marriage was never consumated. Achasverosh only wanted a very pretty woman to show her in her palace. it sounds very likely that it was so, since when Mordechai asked her to speak to the king to save the Jews, she argued that she was not even allowed to see the King. Anyway, as far as I know, there is no Halacha ordering a Jewess to sacrife her life not to intermarry, and Esther might have been in that situation.
And I have never read that what happened between Noah and Cham was sodomy. The Torah says Cham only saw him uncovered and, since the elder brothers took a cloth to cover him walking backwards not to see him uncovered, I would think that "seeing his nakedness" simply means it plainly, and it does not mean sodomy. If "seeing his nakedness" were an euphemism for sodomy, why would his elder sons need a cloth and walk backward to avoid repeating Cham's sin? Midrash says that Cham castrated Noah not raped him. And it sounds very likely, since he had no more children after that.
BTW, if Cham had in fact raped Noach, Noach would have no guilt since he was unconcious.
And after the Torah was given, yes, no Jew is allowed to marry a Gentile. Even more, if a Jew and a Gentile decided to ignore Torah and cohabitate, it's not marriage, no matter if a civil govt gives them a "certificate". it's still simply fornication, since there is no posible valid marriage between a Jew and a Gentile. Not only bad for the Jew but also for the Gentile, since both are losing the opportunity of a proper marital union. They can unite their bodies, but never their souls. A very sad situation that everyone must avoid

[CorrieDeservedIt]

Didn't King David have women from other nations though?

[muman613]

Didn't King David have women from other nations though?

No... Look into the story of Bathsheba... Although David made a mistake by falling for her and taking her in an apparently wrong way, he was not guilty of a sin.

I will quote this Aish.com article:

http://www.aish.com/jl/h/48936837.html

DAVID AND BATHSHEBA

The story of David's relationship with Bathsheba (II Samuel Chap. 11) is one of the most misread stories in the Bible, and we have to be careful in reading it as if it were some kind of soap opera. In summary, however, this is what happens.

Restless one night, David is pacing the roof of his palace from where he has a view of the homes and gardens in the city below(3). And there he spies a beautiful woman bathing. She is the wife of one of his generals, Uriah, the Hittite, who is away at war.

David sends for Bathsheba and spends the night with her. When she becomes pregnant, he commands that Uriah be placed on the front lines, where he dies in battle. David then marries Bathsheba.

At this point, the prophet Nathan is sent by G-d to reprove David. (See 2 Samuel 12.) He says that he has come to inform the king of a great injustice in the land. A rich man with many sheep, stole the one beloved sheep of a poor man, and had it slaughtered for a feast.

Furious at what he hears, King David, declares, "As G-d lives, the one who has done this deserves death."

Responds the prophet, "You are that man!"

David is humbled. "I have sinned before G-d," he says.

This is an enormously complex story and there is much more here than meets the eye. Technically, Bathsheba was not a married woman since David's troops always gave their wives conditional divorces, lest a soldier be missing in action leaving his wife unable to remarry.(4) However, the Bible states clearly that David acted improperly, and the Sages explain that while David did not commit adultery in the literal sense, he violated the spirit of the law(5).

As noted in earlier installments, the Bible takes a hyper-critical position of Jewish leaders. It never whitewashes anyone's past, and in that it stands alone among the records of ancient peoples which usually describe kings as descendants of gods without faults.

David's greatness shines in both his ability to take responsibility for his actions and the humility of his admission and the repentance that follows. This is part of the reason that the ultimate redeemer of the Jewish people and the world will descend from David's line -- he will be "Messiah son of David."

Shortly thereafter, Bathsheba gives birth, but the child becomes deathly ill as the prophet Nathan had predicted. David goes into a period of prayer and fasting, but the child dies nevertheless. David realizes that the death of the baby and later the revolt of his beloved son, Absalom (II Samuel 15-19), were divine punishment and also served as atonement for his actions. David "pays his dues," repents for many years and is ultimately forgiven by G-d.

Before long Bathsheba is pregnant again. And this time, she bears a healthy child -- who is named Solomon, and who will be the golden child, gifted with unusual wisdom.


http://www.jewishamerica.com/ja/TimeLine/david.cfm

[muman613]

Maybe you meant King Solomon had relations with gentile women... I found this:

http://www.beingjewish.com/identity/kingdavidjew.html


Some argue that "there was no conversion process back then." I must wonder how they know this. They simply mean to say that they do not believe that the Laws of Judaism existed back then, and therefore it was okay to marry Gentile women. This entails ignoring the Torah's Commandment not to marry Gentiles.

Not only that, but the great people of Jewish history certainly did not consider it permitted to marry unconverted Gentiles.

Let's take Moses, for example. Moses was married to an Ethiopian woman, Zipporah. Yet when the soldiers brought back Gentile women from Midian, Moses got angry at them (Numbers 31:14-15). What was the difference? The difference is that Zipporah converted to Judaism.

How do we know that Zipporah converted? Because we know that she kept the Commandments. When Moses failed to circumcise his son because he was afraid that the traveling would kill him, what did Zipporah do? "Zipporah took a (sharp) rock and cut off the foreskin of her son..." (Exodus 4:25). Evidently, Zipporah was an observant Jew.

Intermarriage is also mentioned in 1 Kings, Chapter 11:

    King Solomon loved many Gentile women, such as the daughter of Pharaoh, Moabite, Amonite, Edomite, Sidonite, and Hittite women. They are Gentiles, about whom Hashem told the Children of Israel "Do not intermarry with them and do not let them intermarry with you, for they will surely influence you towards their religions." Those are the people that Solomon clung to in love. He had seven hundred queen-wives, and three hundred concubines, and these women influenced him.

    When Solomon grew old, his wives influenced him towards their gods, and thus his heart was not complete in his service of Hashem, as his father David's was....

    Hashem said to Solomon, Since this is the way you are, and you have not fully obeyed My covenant and My Laws that I commanded you, I shall tear part of the kingdom from you, and I will give it to one of your subjects. I shall not do this in your lifetime, for the sake of your father David. I shall tear it away from your son.

We see here that the prophets considered what King Solomon did, in marrying Gentile women, to be a sin. Had they fully and properly converted, they would not have influenced him away from Hashem. (Bear in mind that the Talmud says that King Solomon never actually worshipped any idols, but since he did not stop his wives from doing so when he could have, Hashem considered it as if it were King Solomon's own sin.)

Even back then, evidently, there was a process of conversion. I think, then, that we have amply proven that Ruth was a convert, just like Sarah, Rebecca, Leah, Rachel, Bilha, and Zilpah. And as I said above, in any case the nationality of Ruth would not have thrown into question the Jewishness of King David, who was her great-grandson.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I highly doubt that Esther was married to Mordechai.  Mordechai was her uncle who had adopted her as his daughter.  But if the king wanted her to be his wife, there wasn't really much she could do about it.  If it was her choice she probably would have married a Jewish man.

I never understand why people insist upon the interpretation that Esther and Mordecai were married.   Probably because the Bavli clearly takes that position.   It's unclear to me why, though.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

No, the Talmud is not part of the Jewish Tanach.  Tanach is an abbreviation, which means Torah, Nevi'im, and Ktuvim--

 

The Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings, referring to the books of the Hebrew Bible.  Rabbis saying something in the Talmud doesn't make it true, and the Tanach trumps the rabbis.

   

Not necessarily.   I mean it does in a way, but at the same time often the rabbis are coming to interpret the Tanach with an authentic tradition on it (Oral Torah).   Granted you are right that the interpretations vary, there are issues of drash vs pshat etc, but basically the Talmud is the foundation of Jewish law.   So often it will seem to trump Tanach if a ruling is brought down in Talmud.

  If you want proof of this, look at how many rabbis make contradictory rulings where we have to choose to follow one or the other. 

And the Talmud Yerushalmi is at times quite different than Talmud Bavli.   I wonder what Yerushalmi has to say about Esther, if anything.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Is the concept of cardinal sins Jewish? In so so far as I know, promiscuity and idolatry are trumped by the requirement to preserve life,

No this is not true.  It's actually the opposite.   One is required to give up his life rather than commit any of the 3 worst of sins (idolatry, murder, incest).  So if guy A puts a gun to Guy B's head and says Kill Guy C or I shoot you in the head and kill you, Guy B would choose to be shot rather than shoot the other guy (guy C).   Of course if he can wrestle the gun away and kill the guy trying to force him (kill Guy A), that's ideal.   But in a case where that is impossible he chooses to get killed rather than murder Guy C.