Author Topic: Shalom  (Read 5668 times)

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Offline Dan Ben Noah

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Shalom
« on: April 14, 2009, 07:12:56 PM »
Shalom
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 10:52:44 PM by Dan Ben Noah »
Jeremiah 16:19 O Lord, Who are my power and my strength and my refuge in the day of trouble, to You nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Only lies have our fathers handed down to us, emptiness in which there is nothing of any avail!

Zechariah 8:23 So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

Offline muman613

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2009, 02:44:11 AM »
It is true that the previous generations were greater than us. They were closer to the revelation at Sinai and were wiser. Even though we have the marvels of technology today they do little to make us wiser. In many cases our technology has actually made us less intelligent. Our forefathers used to read Jewish books and study in shul. They used to discuss the halacha and learn new insights into Torah. Nowadays so much of that thought process is lost and has been replaced by who is on american idol.

I hope that the future generations have wisdom from the new light which will shine on Zion.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2009, 05:07:08 AM »
It is true that the previous generations were greater than us. They were closer to the revelation at Sinai and were wiser. Even though we have the marvels of technology today they do little to make us wiser. In many cases our technology has actually made us less intelligent. Our forefathers used to read Jewish books and study in shul. They used to discuss the halacha and learn new insights into Torah. Nowadays so much of that thought process is lost and has been replaced by who is on american idol.

I hope that the future generations have wisdom from the new light which will shine on Zion.


I think the passage mainly refers to the first 22 generations (up until Jacob). I know others have the opinion that this lineage was exceptional in its long lifespan and other abilities.  The rest of humanity during their time didn't enjoy these abilities.

Offline muman613

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2009, 11:17:20 AM »
It is true that the previous generations were greater than us. They were closer to the revelation at Sinai and were wiser. Even though we have the marvels of technology today they do little to make us wiser. In many cases our technology has actually made us less intelligent. Our forefathers used to read Jewish books and study in shul. They used to discuss the halacha and learn new insights into Torah. Nowadays so much of that thought process is lost and has been replaced by who is on american idol.

I hope that the future generations have wisdom from the new light which will shine on Zion.


I think the passage mainly refers to the first 22 generations (up until Jacob). I know others have the opinion that this lineage was exceptional in its long lifespan and other abilities.  The rest of humanity during their time didn't enjoy these abilities.

I am not referring to this passage particularly but I have heard other Rabbis explain that every successive generation is on a lower level than the previous generation.

OU Talk on decline of generations : http://www.ouradio.org/index.php/ouradio/comment/44580/

http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/bereishit/25bereishit.htm
Quote
LECTURE #25: IS THE WORLD MOVING FORWARD OR IS IT IN DECLINE?

By Rav Chaim Navon

I. RETREAT OR PROGRESS?

The midrash on Parashat Chayyei Sara, cited by Rashi, contains one of the sharpest expressions of the idea that over the course of the generations, man has declined:

Rabbi Acha said: The ordinary conversation of the patriach's servants is more pleasing than even the Torah of their children. For the chapter of Eliezer, two or three pages [long], is stated and repeated, whereas [the laws of] creeping creatures are a fundamental aspect of the Torah, and [we] only [know] that its blood imparts ritual impurity like its flesh from a superfluity in Scripture. (Bereishit Rabba 60,8)

The starting point of this midrash is the astonishing fact that Eliezer's narration of his story to Rivka's family is related in full, despite the fact that the events that he describes had already been spelled out in detail. According to the plain sense of the text, other explanations of this repetition may be suggested. Nechama Leibowitz has taught us to pay attention to the differences between Eliezer's account and the original events, and to learn important lessons from the various discrepancies. Nevertheless, the words of Chazal may be understood even on the level of the plain sense of the text: the lessons that may be derived from the talk of the servants of the patriarchs are more important than the Torah of their children.

There are many other sources in which Chazal relate to the issue of the decline of the generations:

Rabbi Zera said in the name of Rabba bar Zimuna: If the earlier [scholars] were sons of angels, we are sons of men; and if the earlier [scholars] were sons of men, we are like asses, and not [even] like asses of Rabbi Chanina ben Dosa and Rabbi Pinchas ben Ya'ir, but like other asses. (Shabbat 112b)

Rabbi Yochanan said: The hearts of the earlier Sages were as broad as the entranceway to the porch of the Temple and those of the later Sages were as broad as the entranceway to the Sanctuary, but our hearts are as narrow as the eye of a very fine sewing-needle. (Eruvin 53a)

Rabbi Yechezkel Landau, author of the Tzelach, based certain halakhic decisions on these considerations. As is well known, at a certain point an acute problem arose: the authorities began to notice that calculations made according to talmudic measurements of length come out much greater – actually, twice as big – than calculations based on measurements of volume. The Tzelach suggested two solutions, and decided between them:

… And you must conclude that something has changed in our time: either the thumbs have increased in size, so that they are larger than the thumbs in the days of the Tannaim, or eggs have diminished in size, so that they are now smaller than what they had been in the days of the Tannaim. And it is known that the generations continually decline, and so it cannot be that our thumbs are larger than the thumbs in the days of the talmudic Sages. You must therefore conclude that the eggs of our day have diminished in size. (Tzelach, Pesachim 116b)

Rabbi Landau made use of the argument that "the generations continually decline" to reach a practical decision regarding halakhic measurements.

...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline msd

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2009, 08:05:45 AM »
"Now, in Kishinev 41 Jews were killed and several tens of Jewish houses and stores were looted. This was the reality less than a hundred years ago. In the last seventy or eighty years, human society has undergone a process of barbarization, and human life no longer has any value. (Yeshaya Leibowitz, Emuna, Historiya, va-Arakhim, pp. 171-172)"

I really don't agree with that. Of course human life still has value. Even among Muslims they wish to establish a world order so that there is "peace" (no more war against infidels). I once ordered a Koran and it came with a leaflet or two of Muslim culture. In it it advised against young women being out late at night and other common sense matters, proving that they care about their own kind, but also proving that there's aspects of this culture that function differently in a good way (sharing advice in this manner).

I think our technology does get in the way of serious study. When thinking about burning down synagogues, for instance, I often thought of my dream of sitting in a jail cell having nothing to read but a Bible and perhaps a few other books.

The internet is useful for disseminating light information, short articles and columns and editorials and news updates, but for some reason electronic media just seems to put a damper on serious things. It's hard to imagine another person is on the other end. A telephone is surprisingly, always to me, more personal and affecting. I think a lot can be communicated within the confines of societal norms. A certain facial expression at the right time, especially when it's involuntary, means the world. You can't do that with the internet, and you can't have amazing Torah discussion through the internet as well, I bet. If there is such a thing.

And I've often wondered how the Torah scholars of ancient days could REMEMBER all that information. Could they really remember all of the Oral Torah? Could Moses before descending the mountain? What kind of a human being has a memory like that and what is it like then to process information. One would think that reading and communication would be boring if you had a mind like that!

Offline muman613

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2009, 09:47:51 AM »
msd,

What are you talking about "When you think about burning down a synagogue"...


Quote

I think our technology does get in the way of serious study. When thinking about burning down synagogues, for instance, I often thought of my dream of sitting in a jail cell having nothing to read but a Bible and perhaps a few other books.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline msd

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2009, 12:17:45 PM »
A deleted thread, never mind it. I'm not going to do that . I wrote bad things and I'm glad it's deleted.

Offline muman613

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2009, 12:58:10 PM »
A deleted thread, never mind it. I'm not going to do that . I wrote bad things and I'm glad it's deleted.

I saw that thread and I hope that you can resist any of those bad thoughts. All mankind is battling their own inclination for bad and the righteous are able to control their bad side and use it for good.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline msd

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2009, 04:12:48 PM »
I won't do anything. I'm sorry about writing it.

Offline Flechette

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2009, 03:09:57 AM »
As another Rabbi Miller, Rabbi Mordechai Miller of Gateshead, said in his CD on the timing of inventions: "Hashem has given us computers, not because we're more intelligent than our ancestors. We may know more than them, but we need computers like a man needs a crutch, because we're more stupid!".

eg the memory powers of the ancients were phenomenal. When, because of the katnuss hadoross memories became weaker, Hashem sent the printing press in the 15th century as a rachmonuss. When men's physiques could no longer withstand the rigours of agriculture and travel, he sent the steam engine in the 19th c etc.

"If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants!" (Newton)

 
 
 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 03:17:59 AM by Flechette »

Offline msd

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2009, 01:06:29 PM »
As another Rabbi Miller, Rabbi Mordechai Miller of Gateshead, said in his CD on the timing of inventions: "Hashem has given us computers, not because we're more intelligent than our ancestors. We may know more than them, but we need computers like a man needs a crutch, because we're more stupid!".

eg the memory powers of the ancients were phenomenal. When, because of the katnuss hadoross memories became weaker, Hashem sent the printing press in the 15th century as a rachmonuss. When men's physiques could no longer withstand the rigours of agriculture and travel, he sent the steam engine in the 19th c etc.

"If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants!" (Newton)

 
 
 

It'd be interesting if this is true, because if so it means the people in the poorest, most backward nations, such as Africa and Arabia, are actually the most superior and advanced of all humans because they use the least technology and didn't see the need to invent anything.

Offline muman613

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2009, 02:54:16 PM »
As another Rabbi Miller, Rabbi Mordechai Miller of Gateshead, said in his CD on the timing of inventions: "Hashem has given us computers, not because we're more intelligent than our ancestors. We may know more than them, but we need computers like a man needs a crutch, because we're more stupid!".

eg the memory powers of the ancients were phenomenal. When, because of the katnuss hadoross memories became weaker, Hashem sent the printing press in the 15th century as a rachmonuss. When men's physiques could no longer withstand the rigours of agriculture and travel, he sent the steam engine in the 19th c etc.

"If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants!" (Newton)

 
 
 

It'd be interesting if this is true, because if so it means the people in the poorest, most backward nations, such as Africa and Arabia, are actually the most superior and advanced of all humans because they use the least technology and didn't see the need to invent anything.

You obviously don't understand what this means. It doesn't mean that those without technology are more advanced... It means that technology has allowed us to become lazy. Those people in Africa never accomplished much while those who walked with Hashem, the Jews and the others who followed, have made advancements over the previous generations. Only those who worked on making themselves better actually became better. Our forefathers worked harder than we did, they knew more than we did... Not the primitive peoples in Africa and Arabia who did not have wisdom to begin with. Our people have invented and developed so much, but today we have people who are almost brain dead.

This wisdom doesn't say that primitive people are more advanced... It says that our forefathers were much more advanced than we were when it came to brainpower. I fully understand this and have seen it, my grandparents were much more informed than I am.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline msd

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2009, 03:20:07 PM »
But if older generations were wiser than us why would they have invented technologies that would make future generations lazier?

And why would you and me be using such technologies like these here computers? :)

We better become like the Amish straight-away! ;)

Offline muman613

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2009, 03:43:23 PM »
But if older generations were wiser than us why would they have invented technologies that would make future generations lazier?

And why would you and me be using such technologies like these here computers? :)

We better become like the Amish straight-away! ;)

The issue is not the technology itself, it is that humanity took the hedonistic path, the path of physical pleasures. Of course having more technology allows us to have more physical pleasure but a wise man is able to use technology to his advantage, to further the word of Hashem and to bring rectification to the physical world. Everything which mankind creates can be used for both good and or for bad, like a double-edged sword. There is nothing inherently evil about technology, and we have no desire to remove technology from the world, heaven forbid. I am a Computer Software engineer and I find this work to be G-dlike, in that I create something from almost nothing {like Hashem did when he created the universe}. What is done with technology is the question. I think it is great that the internet can be used for much good, in the study of Torah, and it can be used for bad by the terrorists. This just proves the principle of Freewill all the more. No technology can save us, only we can save ourselves.

I don't think that the Amish do anything by abstaining from technology. There are many Jewish sects which also do not have TVs but they do have electricity. I find myself in the middle, abstaining from the technology on the Shabbat yet using it for my parnassa {livelyhood} and my Torah study.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2009, 03:49:06 PM »
msd,
you may find this page to be informative:

http://74.125.155.132/custom?q=cache:J3l-G496f9wJ:www.dvar.org.il/RavHorshiurim/The%2520Superior%2520Mind.doc+camera+eye+that+sees+technology&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=google-csbe

Also check this out : http://www.aish.com/spirituality/growth/The_Eye_That_Sees.asp


The Superior Mind

Science and advanced technology appear to have brought us to the pinnacle of the Biblical mandate to subdue the world (Genesis 1:28). Not only has man conquered the world of outer space, he is achieving domination in the inner space of the nucleus. He is unravelling the mysteries of genetic codes and engineering new life forms.

The computer and the technology of robotics and artificial intelligence stand at the frontier of man’s efforts to master his world. A computer is capable of doing calculations that exceed the capacity of any single mind. Robots are increasingly replacing workers who perform repetitive tasks. What are the limits of these developments? Could a computer or robot replace the human mind?

Human intelligence is not the ability to follow instructions, which can also be done by a robot. What is the essence of the human being? Who is the real you?

Some say that man is like a machine, a body that can perform certain functions. In times past, a person could consider his own body as an integral part of himself. But scientific progress has changed this concept of personality. Today, a man can live with another person’s heart beating in his breast. If he is asked, “Who are YOU?” he cannot point to his heart, because it is someone else’s.

Let us imagine what it would be like to undergo a brain transplant. A person might be suffering from an incurable disease in his body, but still have a healthy brain. The donor, on the other hand, would have suffered irreparable brain damage, but otherwise have a perfectly sound body. So the brain is removed from the sick body and placed in the healthy one. Who is the new man? We have an old brain with all its memories, personality traits and behavior patterns, but it has a brand new body. The old body might have been old and sick, while the new one may be young and full of energy. Let us ask this man to point to himself. Will he point to his body, or will he point to his head? Probably the latter.

Computer technology allows one to perform a memory transfer, taking the information in one computer system and transferring it to another. What if this were done to the human brain? Let us envision a memory transfer. Assume that we have a person with an incurable disease, and neither his body nor his brain can be salvaged. We clone a new body for this individual, brain and all. This new body has a blank, new brain capable of functioning, but without any memories. We bring all of the information of the sick person into the brain of the new body. If all of man’s memories, thought patterns and personality traits are transferred to a new body and brain, then this person literally exists in his new body, but nothing physical has been transferred, only the information. But then the question arises, who is the real you? 

It is not your body, nor your brain; it is the information contained in your brain — the personality traits, memories and thought patterns, the non- material ego.

After the body ceases to function, what happens to the real you, the human personality? What happens to all the memories, thought patterns and personality traits? When a book is burnt, its contents are no longer available. When a computer is smashed, the information in it is also destroyed. But, when a man dies, everything still remains in

G-d’s memory. We may think of something existing only in memory as being static, but G-d’s memory is dynamic and still maintains its identity. This is the meaning of immortality, the Garden of Eden, the World to Come, the world of souls, the bond of eternal life. ‘Dust returns to the dust as it was, but the spirit returns to the G-d who gave it.’ (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

A person is theoretically able to perceive everything that that surrounds him and to remember everything. But if all of this information poured into his mind continuously, it would overwhelm him, Therefore, the brain screens out most of what we perceive and remember. It functions in part as a reducing valve, to limit the information that enters our awareness so that we encounter the constant data from the world as a gentle stream rather than as a tidal wave. A hint of what the brain excludes can be understood if one closes his eyes and views the kaleidoscope of random pictures that enter the mind.

Let us now imagine the mental activity of a disembodied head, naked in front of G-d, as it were. The reducing valve is gone; the mind is open and transparent. Then one can perceive everything in a way impossible to a mind which is held back by a body and a nervous system. That is why the Sages describe the World to Come with the following imagery: The righteous sit with their crowns on their heads and delight in the rays of glory of the Divine Presence. The Book of Job states: ‘ After my skin is destroyed, then without my flesh I shall see G-d.’ (Job 19:26) This is reflected in Near Death experiences which have recently been scientifically explored.

In this disembodied state, the individual will see himself in a new light. He will see himself for the first time without the jamming that shuts out most thoughts. Even in our mortal, physical state, looking at oneself can sometimes be pleasing and at other times painful. Even more so, when one stands with one’s memory open in front of G-d, one will feel enormous pleasure from all of the good deeds that one has done and which G-d approves. For the opposite, one will feel great shame: ‘Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame. And them that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament.’ (Daniel 12:2-3) This concept of the human personality is totally unlike the mechanism and data of the computer.

Another major difference between the mind and the computer is that the individuality of man is associated with thought patterns, traits and the memories in one unit. In contrast, computer operations are discrete, not unified; there is no ego in the computer, no unifying force.

Usually, we behold hundreds of objects and dozens of colors. The eye functions as a lens, similar to a camera, and focuses an image on the retina. Attached to the retina are millions of nerve endings that convey the impulses created by that image through the optic nerve to the brain. And the optic nerve has a cable, as it were, that contains a great number of parallel strands each carrying a separate message. What happens when these messages arrive at the brain? 

For example, when we are looking at two points of light, one bundle of nerves carries the message of one of the lights to one part of the brain, and another bundle to another point, another part of the brain, and the total message is spread out in space. The nerves with their messages cannot converge on one point or on one particle because the size of the nerve is far in excess of any particle. Therefore, since these nerve endings are in different parts of the brain, one producing the impression of light here and another over there, what entity in physics can account for our seeing two lights at the same time? These two discrete things must be in two places at the same time and there is no physical entity where this can possibly be true. In physics, there are four known forces: gravitation, electromagnetism, and the weak and strong nuclear forces. None of these can help us to see how a physical entity can have been in two places at once. The entity that encompasses the two points of light together as a unity cannot be a physical entity. It is the mind which has the unique function of holding disparate things together in a unity and which spreads over matter.

The ego is situated in many places at once. For example, we look out of both eyes and see our nose. Is my nose to the right or to the left? It is to the right of one eye and to the left of the other. So where am I? I must be situated behind both eyes, and therefore I cannot say that the nose is to my right or to my left.

For example, when I look at a table, I know that it has legs underneath and a side to it. But I only know it because my mind can hold together images that are separate. My eyes see the whole top of the table at once. Even that is only possible because of the unifying, integrating part of the mind. I can only see the total table by having an image of the top, an image of the bottom, an image of one side and the other side; then I take all of the images together and create the reality of the table through the power of my mind. And that can never be done by any machine.

Cornputerised axial tomography (CAT) is a medical diagnostic technology that scans cross-sections of the human body and assembles via computer graphics a three-dimensional image. The CAT scanner only concatenates a myriad of two-dimensional slices, and then projects images onto a viewing screen. The computer does not present a single, unified image of the body or object being viewed. Only the human mind, with its unique conceptualizing power, can extract a unified concept of a body or object.

Some believe that the physical brain does the thinking. But the physical brain is just like a machine; the thinking is done by something non-physical, the mind, which joins together the conceptual correlate of the impulses of the brain. There is a correlation between brain activity and the thoughts that produce this activity. But the mind is the ultimate reality. The body, including the brain, exists more like a shadow in comparison with the mind. It is the mind that holds together the diverse aspects of space and objects and also the separate points of time.

The individuality of man is expressed through the power of his mind. The source of this power of the individual? The influx that comes from a higher Source, from G-d Himself. That is how G-d is described as being the source of the Divine Breath, ‘Neshama’ — the soul power of the human being. The Deity is a larger Mind of which our own minds are elements, but which still permits the mind of man to have its own individuality.

When one sees a glorious sunset or a majestic landscape one feels in touch with a greater Mind because then the ego shrinks. We realize that petty concerns are small in comparison to the great harmony we perceive. This is why the Sages have given us a blessing to say for all the wonders of nature, which make us conscious of the transcendental world. Through immersing oneself in the great harmony of life and Divinity which is contained in the Torah, one encounters the spiritual space, where the soul-mind of man resides.

In our day, when man so readily likens himself to a machine and regards the computer as having greater abilities than himself, we must reaffirm the superiority of the mind and soul. All man-made creations will bring solace and harmony only if they are dedicated to G-d, the Mind of the universe.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 03:55:56 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Flechette

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2009, 04:13:16 PM »
Adam Harishon didn't even have a shirt on his back. He literally had NOTHING!

Yet he was the most intelligent and strongest human who has ever lived!

We today only use a fraction of our brain's power, and our physiques are pathetic.

Adam was operating at optimum.

Since then, it's been downhill all the way, which is part of the plan.

At appropriate junctures in history, Hashem permits discoveries in technology to compensate for that decline, without which mankind could not survive.

The year 5600 (1840) was pointed out by the Zohar as a year that would see such revelation in particular, and indeed most discoveries of the Industrial Revolution were made around that time.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 04:20:32 PM by Flechette »

Offline msd

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2009, 04:40:57 PM »
Thanks, Muman613. I liked both articles. The only thing I disagreed with was this part:

Quote
Let us envision a memory transfer. Assume that we have a person with an incurable disease, and neither his body nor his brain can be salvaged. We clone a new body for this individual, brain and all. This new body has a blank, new brain capable of functioning, but without any memories. We bring all of the information of the sick person into the brain of the new body. If all of man’s memories, thought patterns and personality traits are transferred to a new body and brain, then this person literally exists in his new body, but nothing physical has been transferred, only the information.

But that's not important. I agree that the human mind cannot be replicated with technology (unless we are growing new brains organically so that they have the same physical makeup as normal brains). I think it may be possible that we will invent robots that seem to have all the characteristics of humans, that act and talk just like us, but unless their brains are organic and molded just like ours are, I will doubt they have consciousness (any form of experience and sentience).

I know there's nothing inherently evil about technology. I was just making a point in regard to what you said about technology making us lazy. But you didn't quite say that -- you just said that it has ALLOWED us to become lazy, which is different.

Thanks again for the articles. I'll read them again later.

Admittedly, I did not understand this part:
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For example, when we are looking at two points of light, one bundle of nerves carries the message of one of the lights to one part of the brain, and another bundle to another point, another part of the brain, and the total message is spread out in space. The nerves with their messages cannot converge on one point or on one particle because the size of the nerve is far in excess of any particle. Therefore, since these nerve endings are in different parts of the brain, one producing the impression of light here and another over there, what entity in physics can account for our seeing two lights at the same time? These two discrete things must be in two places at the same time and there is no physical entity where this can possibly be true. In physics, there are four known forces: gravitation, electromagnetism, and the weak and strong nuclear forces. None of these can help us to see how a physical entity can have been in two places at once. The entity that encompasses the two points of light together as a unity cannot be a physical entity. It is the mind which has the unique function of holding disparate things together in a unity and which spreads over matter.

But I think I get the gist of it from the rest.

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I guess to summarize how I feel about "the superiority of the ancient individual," I would say that I think man has not gone up or down since he was created. I do believe in evolution, but I think when man became spiritual, which the Garden of Eden story symbolizes, I think from that point on man has stayed the same as far as his brain capacity and capabilities are concerned. Ancient fossil records of Cro-Magnon man go back 30,000 or more years and they show a man that is about as robust as us, with a brain cavity similar in size to modern Europeans and Asians.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 04:56:46 PM by msd »

Offline Flechette

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Re: Superiority of the Ancient Individual
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2009, 12:39:59 PM »
Yet no human bone, artifact or record can be positively dated as being older than 10,000 years.

There is no evidence that our ancestors were apes or ape-like creatures, and no fossils have ever been found to link human beings with anything other than human beings.
   
After years of careful study, top researchers like Lord Solly Zuckerman and Professor Duane Gish concluded that the entire concept of man's evolution from an ape-like creature is a phantasm, and that all the once-sensationalised "missing-links" such as Cro-Magnon Man, Peking Man, Neanderthal Man, Java Man, Orce Man, Fontechevade Man, Wadjak Man, Grimaldi Man, Olduvai Man, Foxhall Man, Nutcracker Man, Swanscombe Man, Leaky's 1470 Man, Heidelberg Man, Galley Hill Man, Piltdown Man etc.etc., were either 100% ape, 100% homo sapiens or 100% hoax!                       
According to Jewish tradition (Sanhedrin 109) the punishment of one-third of the builders of the Tower of Babel was their miraculous transformation into apes: devolution not evolution!