Is Wahhabism genuinely Islamic or is it a seperate religion to Islam?

[Adrian Wainer]

The noble Koran is the true Word of G-d given to the Prophet Mohammad Peace be upon him. The Koran in conjunction with Hadiths of the Prophet and the pronouncements of  the four judicial schools of Islam, constitute the faith. Whilst the Koran is the word of G-d, all endeavor by men being the humble creatures that they are, can only be the best interpretation of the will of Allah and must of necessity be something less than perfect and thus understanding what is the true will of Allah to the best of one's abilities and seeking to implement the message of Allah to the best of one's abilities is what Allah asks of the Muslims and that is what the true Muslim will struggle to achieve.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer 

[Ulli]

Adrian,

do you (as debator) believe, that the Muslim is able to understand the meaning of the quran and the sunna without a teacher?

[Adrian Wainer]

Adrian,

do you (as debator) believe, that the Muslim is able to understand the meaning of the quran and the sunna without a teacher?

Yes I do, If a person is a honorable and intelligent person he may seek to understand Islam from reading the Koran and examining the ahadith of the Prophet PBUH. The practical problem, is that the four judicial schools of Islam have put enormous man hours in to understanding the Koran and whilst a person may devote his entire life to understanding the Koran and the ahadith, it would be a huge task for a person to attempt and therefor one would be better to immerse oneself in the commentaries of learned scholars on the Koran and apply one's efforts to understanding the Koran and ahadith through such commentaries. Of course if on top of that the assistance of a teacher was available, that would make things considerably easier, provided that the teacher would be of a sufficiently high moral character and academic standard.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer   

[Ulli]

Adrian,

why do you consider Wahabism aka Salafism as a seperate religion?

They follow the deeds and works of Mohammed according to the quran and the sunna. In fact they plead to be the most exact followers of Mohammed, in a way like the Sahaba have understood him.

And the arch-quranimal Muhammed said, that the best Muslim generation would be his and the one after him and so forth.

I have never found one mistake in their interpretation of Islam.

What points can you make against them?

[Adrian Wainer]

Adrian,

why do you consider Wahabism aka Salafism as a seperate religion?

They follow the deeds and works of Mohammed according to the quran and the sunna. In fact they plead to be the most exact followers of Mohammed, in a way like the Sahaba have understood him.

And the arch-quranimal Muhammed said, that the best Muslim generation would be his and the one after him and so forth.

I have never found one mistake in their interpretation of Islam.

What points can you make against them?

If they merely interpreted Islam and sought to do so in an honest and scholarly fashion, even if they made mistakes and failed to see such mistakes for the mistakes that they are, because it was beyond their abilities to see such mistakes for the mistakes they are, that would not place them outside the Muslim Ummah but they do not merely interpret, they innovate new aspects and attribute them to Islam at their pleasure.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer 

[briann]

Of course if on top of that the assistance of a teacher was available, that would make things considerably easier, provided that the teacher would be of a sufficiently high moral character and academic standard.

This is a very disturbing statement.   Would you say the same about a grade school teachers in the 3rd Reich teaching Mein Kampf?

The problem isnt the teachers... its the ideology of the book.  Its the whole second half of the hideous book...when Muhammad's ramblings become twisted and evil.  When he commands intolerance and hate.... when he calls for Jihad... and pronounces everywhere that is not Islamic shall be the house of war... when he commands death, torture, and submission to non-believers.

I'm sure that some German kids came out of their 'Mein Kampf' studies book.. and thanks to the spinning of their teacher... believed it was an ideology of righteousness.  But we dont say... we can solve Naziism by making sure that all Mein Kampf teachings are done by teachers with high moral character.

No.... we identify that the ideology of the book and the man who wrote the book are evil.  Nothing else is acceptable.

[Adrian Wainer]

Of course if on top of that the assistance of a teacher was available, that would make things considerably easier, provided that the teacher would be of a sufficiently high moral character and academic standard.

This is a very disturbing statement.   Would you say the same about a grade school teachers in the 3rd Reich teaching Mein Kampf?

The problem isnt the teachers... its the ideology of the book.  Its the whole second half of the hideous book...when Muhammad's ramblings become twisted and evil.  When he commands intolerance and hate.... when he calls for Jihad... and pronounces everywhere that is not Islamic shall be the house of war... when he commands death, torture, and submission to non-believers.

I'm sure that some German kids came out of their 'Mein Kampf' studies book.. and thanks to the spinning of their teacher... believed it was an ideology of righteousness.  But we dont say... we can solve Naziism by making sure that all Mein Kampf teachings are done by teachers with high moral character.

No.... we identify that the ideology of the book and the man who wrote the book are evil.  Nothing else is acceptable.

Your arguments interesting as they are, outside the remit of this thread, the sole purpose of this thread is to establish whether Wahhabism is Islamic or not Islamic.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Wahhabiism is the purest, most devout form of Islam.

[briann]

Of course if on top of that the assistance of a teacher was available, that would make things considerably easier, provided that the teacher would be of a sufficiently high moral character and academic standard.

This is a very disturbing statement.   Would you say the same about a grade school teachers in the 3rd Reich teaching Mein Kampf?

The problem isnt the teachers... its the ideology of the book.  Its the whole second half of the hideous book...when Muhammad's ramblings become twisted and evil.  When he commands intolerance and hate.... when he calls for Jihad... and pronounces everywhere that is not Islamic shall be the house of war... when he commands death, torture, and submission to non-believers.

I'm sure that some German kids came out of their 'Mein Kampf' studies book.. and thanks to the spinning of their teacher... believed it was an ideology of righteousness.  But we dont say... we can solve Naziism by making sure that all Mein Kampf teachings are done by teachers with high moral character.

No.... we identify that the ideology of the book and the man who wrote the book are evil.  Nothing else is acceptable.

Your argument interesting as they are outside the remit of this thread, the sole purpose of this thread is to establish whether Wahhabism is Islamic or not Islamic.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

What?  Your comments are very arrogant.

You bring up a very disturbing opinion...  and expect us to ignore it??  I shouldn't comment on your statement... because commenting on it doesn't follow YOUR guidelines?  and is 'outside the remit of this thread'?   Take a look any thread and you will nearly always see it going in any and all sorts of interesting directions, and we all have the courtesy and decency to allow this to happen... with rare exceptions.    Drop your arrogance and understand that if you state something that is completely against the ideology of this board, we WILL comment on it.

Best and Warm Regards
Brian N.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Brian, I am wondering about what this guy is all about more and more. When Hanna opened up a thread asking us to pray for her cat, he hijacked it and began a very bizarre discussion on cat-worship in ancient Egypt, asking Jews what they thought of it. I am wondering more and more if this Wainer bloke has a few screws loose.

[cjd]

Of course if on top of that the assistance of a teacher was available, that would make things considerably easier, provided that the teacher would be of a sufficiently high moral character and academic standard.

This is a very disturbing statement.   Would you say the same about a grade school teachers in the 3rd Reich teaching Mein Kampf?

The problem isnt the teachers... its the ideology of the book.  Its the whole second half of the hideous book...when Muhammad's ramblings become twisted and evil.  When he commands intolerance and hate.... when he calls for Jihad... and pronounces everywhere that is not Islamic shall be the house of war... when he commands death, torture, and submission to non-believers.

I'm sure that some German kids came out of their 'Mein Kampf' studies book.. and thanks to the spinning of their teacher... believed it was an ideology of righteousness.  But we dont say... we can solve Naziism by making sure that all Mein Kampf teachings are done by teachers with high moral character.

No.... we identify that the ideology of the book and the man who wrote the book are evil.  Nothing else is acceptable.

Your argument interesting as they are outside the remit of this thread, the sole purpose of this thread is to establish whether Wahhabism is Islamic or not Islamic.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

What?  Your comments are very arrogant.

You bring up a very disturbing opinion...  and expect us to ignore it??  I shouldn't comment on your statement... because commenting on it doesn't follow YOUR guidelines?  and is 'outside the remit of this thread'?   Take a look any thread and you will nearly always see it going in any and all sorts of interesting directions, and we all have the courtesy and decency to allow this to happen... with rare exceptions.    Drop your arrogance and understand that if you state something that is completely against the ideology of this board, we WILL comment on it.

Best and Warm Regards
Brian N.

Well said!!

[muman613]

Who in the hell says "The Prophet Mohammud, PBUH" but a Muslim? PBUH is an acronym for "Peace Be Upon Him" and I usually make it clear that "Poop Be Upon Him". I don't know but this Adrian has posted some very 'interesting/bizzare' ideas to JTF...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't know but this Adrian has posted some very 'interesting/bizzare' ideas to JTF...

That would be an understatement.

[Adrian Wainer]

Of course if on top of that the assistance of a teacher was available, that would make things considerably easier, provided that the teacher would be of a sufficiently high moral character and academic standard.

This is a very disturbing statement.   Would you say the same about a grade school teachers in the 3rd Reich teaching Mein Kampf?

The problem isnt the teachers... its the ideology of the book.  Its the whole second half of the hideous book...when Muhammad's ramblings become twisted and evil.  When he commands intolerance and hate.... when he calls for Jihad... and pronounces everywhere that is not Islamic shall be the house of war... when he commands death, torture, and submission to non-believers.

I'm sure that some German kids came out of their 'Mein Kampf' studies book.. and thanks to the spinning of their teacher... believed it was an ideology of righteousness.  But we dont say... we can solve Naziism by making sure that all Mein Kampf teachings are done by teachers with high moral character.

No.... we identify that the ideology of the book and the man who wrote the book are evil.  Nothing else is acceptable.

Your argument interesting as they are outside the remit of this thread, the sole purpose of this thread is to establish whether Wahhabism is Islamic or not Islamic.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

What?  Your comments are very arrogant.

You bring up a very disturbing opinion...  and expect us to ignore it??  I shouldn't comment on your statement... because commenting on it doesn't follow YOUR guidelines?  and is 'outside the remit of this thread'?   Take a look any thread and you will nearly always see it going in any and all sorts of interesting directions, and we all have the courtesy and decency to allow this to happen... with rare exceptions.    Drop your arrogance and understand that if you state something that is completely against the ideology of this board, we WILL comment on it.

Best and Warm Regards
Brian N.

No I do not expect you to ignore it, this thread was started by me but in consultation with a member of this forum whom I reasonably have assumed to be of good standing in the forum and whom I reasonably believe would have been better able to deal with the concerns you have raised than me. One of the things which could have been done would have been to create a new thread for the concerns you have raised but before that you might reasonably have sought to establish why I made the comment which I did, which I would not have made had I established this thread just out of my own personal initiative.  

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[Adrian Wainer]

Brian, I am wondering about what this guy is all about more and more. When Hanna opened up a thread asking us to pray for her cat, he hijacked it and began a very bizarre discussion on cat-worship in ancient Egypt, asking Jews what they thought of it. I am wondering more and more if this Wainer bloke has a few screws loose.

Are you a psychiatrist, by the way I had some dealings with dissidents when the USSR was going concern. One of the tricks of the State security apparatus, was to have people who voiced the opinion that, it was a possibility that State socialism was not perfect in every conceivable way, committed to psychiatric hospitals against their will, on the grounds of insanity and pump them full of drugs.

Dr Радован Караџић was a psychiatrist wasn't he?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The noble Koran ...
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer 

Did you really just call the Koran "noble" ?

Sorry pal, but your beliefs are beyond the pale of Islamic doctrine, and despite your "tolerance" of the muslim nazi terrorists who really do follow Islam and your considering them "still part of the ummah" even though you consider their interpretation to be mistaken, THEY would NOT consider YOU part of the ummah in any way.   If you do not go by the hadiths the Muslim scholars have established as binding and rejected those they hold are abrogated from the body of Islam, you are not following what Islam really is.    But even without all that garbage, the Koran is an evil book of smut that calls for the extermination of the Jews, and Muhammad himself was a pedophile who carried out genocidal exterminations of Jews in the Arabian peninsula.   How you can even give a thought to holding of this phony so-called "religion" or even your own self-styled delusional version of it, is beyond rational comprehension.

[syyuge]

Wahabism is brazenly cruel and real Islam, which does not goes or demands for any kind of excuses.

[Adrian Wainer]

The noble Koran ...
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer 

Did you really just call the Koran "noble" ?

Sorry pal, but your beliefs are beyond the pale of Islamic doctrine, and despite your "tolerance" of the muslim nazi terrorists who really do follow Islam and your considering them "still part of the ummah" even though you consider their interpretation to be mistaken, THEY would NOT consider YOU part of the ummah in any way.   If you do not go by the hadiths the Muslim scholars have established as binding and rejected those they hold are abrogated from the body of Islam, you are not following what Islam really is.    But even without all that garbage, the Koran is an evil book of smut that calls for the extermination of the Jews, and Muhammad himself was a pedophile who carried out genocidal exterminations of Jews in the Arabian peninsula.   How you can even give a thought to holding of this phony so-called "religion" or even your own self-styled delusional version of it, is beyond rational comprehension.

I take it then you are not totally impressed with the wonders of Islam, the Religion of Peace? Would I be wrong, do you mind me asking what faith your are of?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[muman613]

The noble Koran ...
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer 

Did you really just call the Koran "noble" ?

Sorry pal, but your beliefs are beyond the pale of Islamic doctrine, and despite your "tolerance" of the muslim nazi terrorists who really do follow Islam and your considering them "still part of the ummah" even though you consider their interpretation to be mistaken, THEY would NOT consider YOU part of the ummah in any way.   If you do not go by the hadiths the Muslim scholars have established as binding and rejected those they hold are abrogated from the body of Islam, you are not following what Islam really is.    But even without all that garbage, the Koran is an evil book of smut that calls for the extermination of the Jews, and Muhammad himself was a pedophile who carried out genocidal exterminations of Jews in the Arabian peninsula.   How you can even give a thought to holding of this phony so-called "religion" or even your own self-styled delusional version of it, is beyond rational comprehension.

I take it then you are not totally impressed with the wonders of Islam, the Religion of Peace? Would I be wrong, do you mind me asking what faith your are of?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Islam is a gutter religion. It has stolen all its ideas from Judaism and twisted them to suit Islams perversions. There is no defense of this Islam. It is a death cult and light should be cast on it to cause it to pass away. Islam is evil and those who practice it are dead. Mohammud was a piece of excrement and should have been assasinated.

If you are a supporter of Islam you are my enemy.

[Adrian Wainer]

Islam is a gutter religion. It has stolen all its ideas from Judaism and twisted them to suit Islams perversions. There is no defense of this Islam. It is a death cult and light should be cast on it to cause it to pass away. Islam is evil and those who practice it are dead. Mohammud was a piece of excrement and should have been assasinated.

If you are a supporter of Islam you are my enemy.

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinions but as to whether they are fair or accurate is an entirely different matter and one point which would need to be made and that is that, if Jewish people are reasonably to protest against disgraceful behavior by, for example, Muslims and Christians against Jews,  Jews should treat people of other religions with respect. Now, if people who are Muslims are being aggressive towards Jewish people, then it is perfectly correct that Jewish people would seek to defend themselves, but what I do not like is a lack of differentiation between ordinary decent people who are Muslims and vicious Islamofascist scum.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer   

[Ulli]

Adrian,

why do you consider Wahabism aka Salafism as a seperate religion?

They follow the deeds and works of Mohammed according to the quran and the sunna. In fact they plead to be the most exact followers of Mohammed, in a way like the Sahaba have understood him.

And the arch-quranimal Muhammed said, that the best Muslim generation would be his and the one after him and so forth.

I have never found one mistake in their interpretation of Islam.

What points can you make against them?

If they merely interpreted Islam and sought to do so in an honest and scholarly fashion, even if they made mistakes and failed to see such mistakes for the mistakes that they are, because it was beyond their abilities to see such mistakes for the mistakes they are, that would not place them outside the Muslim Ummah but they do not merely interpret, they innovate new aspects and attribute them to Islam at their pleasure.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer 

You mean the Sahaba made mistakes in their interpretation of Islam?

[Adrian Wainer]

You mean the Sahaba made mistakes in their interpretation of Islam?

There are possibilities that errors were made by the Sahaba but that is not a fundamental problem, that does not negate traditional Sunni Islam, it merely means that the interpretation of Islam will be less than perfect but this an accepted fact from the get go that whilst Islam is perfect the interpretation will always be flawed. No the problem is not with Sunni Islam, the problem is with the Wahhabis being innovators.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer 

[muman613]

Who cares? Why is this relevant to this discussion of Islam being the enemy of the west? I could care less about who believes what about mohammud. It is just not important to me because all that matters is that virtually every Muslim cleric harbors innate hatred for Jews. I believe even the 'moderate' muslim has hatred in his heart for Jews. In Judaism we have no need to hate any people, but those who fulfill the role of Amalek we must wage war against. It seems in todays age that Islam is playing the role of Amalek and as a result I am very agressive against Islam. This is because of 9/11 and my brothers death in that brutal attack on America. I will never forgive OBL, nor his Saudi backers, nor his brothers and sisters occupying Israel.

I will not discuss which Islam is 'authentic' because none of it is authentic to me.

 

[Adrian Wainer]

Who cares? Why is this relevant to this discussion of Islam being the enemy of the west? I could care less about who believes what about mohammud. It is just not important to me because all that matters is that virtually every Muslim cleric harbors innate hatred for Jews. I believe even the 'moderate' muslim has hatred in his heart for Jews. In Judaism we have no need to hate any people, but those who fulfill the role of Amalek we must wage war against. It seems in todays age that Islam is playing the role of Amalek and as a result I am very agressive against Islam. This is because of 9/11 and my brothers death in that brutal attack on America. I will never forgive OBL, nor his Saudi backers, nor his brothers and sisters occupying Israel.

I will not discuss which Islam is 'authentic' because none of it is authentic to me.

 

Well, your argument is inherently flawed, unless you would propose the case that, Jews have no requirement to act in their own defense on the basis that, if Jews live a righteous life, G-d will strike down a would be oppressor, before he can effect harm against a righteous Jew. Are you claiming that Jews have no need to act in self defense, if they live a righteous life, as G-d will effect their defense.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[Ulli]

Adrian, the Wahabis go heavily after and stick to the sources of Islam. In fact this is their ideology.

Imo they have made basically an Islamic reformation, that brings them nearer to the original Islam in it's real meaning.

I do not see anything that they have added.