Author Topic: Look out they're coming for you  (Read 1519 times)

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Offline muppet

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Look out they're coming for you
« on: May 24, 2009, 08:56:11 PM »
Here's an article you all might find interesting..



When the landlady of my Toronto apartment building said an outraged neighbour had filed a complaint about me over an apparently inappropriate hallway interaction with his wife, my mind raced through the countless conversations I've had with fellow tenants, none of which seemed a possible source of offence.

It turns out, it wasn't a salacious transaction that had caused the complaint, but rather a neighbourly and -- to me -- entirely forgettable greeting, little more than a brief "good morning" as I passed my neighbours on the way to work.

Still, it was enough of an affront for the man -- once a doctor somewhere in the Middle East, my landlady clarified -- to feel I had broken a cultural taboo. The incident started an awkward feud which has involved warnings not to repeat my indiscretion and one face-to-face shouting match, which included allusions to my impending death.

I expect the battle will wage on, as we appear to be stuck at an impasse.

His Muslim upbringing has ingrained in him a sense of entitlement to demand I not speak directly to his wife; and my prairie upbringing has ingrained in me a duty to strive for polite cohesion with my neighbours.

My landlady, who has handled the complaint with tittering trepidation, hasn't helped dispel the friction. She has told me to adhere to the demands because the man "could be dangerous," directing me to literally turn my back to the couple as they pass, never make eye contact and never hold the elevator for them, no matter what.

Life among neighbours has become increasingly complicated by multiculturalism, in this case making even the most affable salutation or good Samaritan gesture a practice in walking on eggshells. But in trying to adapt to a patchwork of often conflicting cultures, has civility become the casualty of accommodation?

I grew up in Manitoba, where it was an affront to your neighbour not to be cordial. If you didn't greet them by name you could be talked about in hushed voices and risked being labelled standoffish. Community amongst neighbours was not something to consider, it was a way of life. Call it prairie law.

Since moving to Toronto, I have lived in condos where asking your neighbour for the proverbial cup of sugar is greeted by skeptical, confused faces and closed doors.

But the majority have been open to the time-passing chats that break down barriers.

My midtown apartment building is home mostly to young professionals and is the definition of nondescript. I frequently hold doors for people carrying packages and say "you're welcome" if they show gratitude. I have run errands for unfamiliar neighbours because I was heading out into the rain anyway and there was no point in us both getting wet. I chat like a fool while waiting in the laundry room.

Of course, denying me the right to greet a woman in our shared hallway fails to measure up to reported conflicts that have caused a culture clash, such as Canada's reaction to a recent Afghan law allowing some husbands to withhold food until their wives agree to sex, or the case of a Toronto-area father and son accused of killing a daughter who refused to wear a hijab at school.

I discussed my situation with the head of a prominent Muslim women's rights organization, who was understandably more concerned with the living conditions of the woman in question. She described the segregation of sexes as one of the worst examples of fundamentalist Islamic misinterpretation and dismissed the idea that my greeting could be construed as an offence.

Keep smiling, keep saying hello, she advised. The successful cohesion of cultures requires concessions from both sides. Offence or not, I have continued to greet those I share a building with, although the couple next door continue living in reclusion.

The alternative to this is to live amongst strangers in an icy standoff, fearful that the slightest attempt at community might be viewed as an affront. The alternative is to abandon prairie law, turn your back and close your eyes. And that sounds terrible.

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=1618828

The one thing I picked up from that and it really struck home was the Husband was a Doctor back in his previous country. I'm to take that then he's educated?, if he's educated what are the other ignorant parasites like then?

Offline muman613

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2009, 10:55:48 PM »
I am not defending this muslim but it is also Jewish wisdom which teaches that a married woman should not be talking with a man. This comes from the Jewish book of Wisdom called Pirkie Avos, {Wisdom of the Fathers}.

Pirkei Avot Chapter 1 Mishnah 5

"
5. Yosi ben Yochanan of Jerusalem said: Let your house be wide open and let the poor be members of thy household; and do not talk much with women. This was said about one's own wife; how much more so about the wife of one's neighbor. Therefore the sages have said: He who talks too much with women brings evil upon himself and neglects the study of the Torah and will in the end inherit Gehenna.
"

I dont know why the Muslims would listen to Jewish wisdom!?


For more information on this Torah wisdom refer to http://www.aish.com/spirituality/growth/The_Kindness_Paradox_Pirkei_Avot_15.asp


PS: It was wrong for him to complain to the manager about it. I would have explained the issue to the neighbor first...

PPS: I belong to an Orthodox Jewish shul and we have seperate men/women seating. I much prefer davening seperate from the women because they can be a distraction.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 11:06:35 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Moshe92

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2009, 11:20:23 PM »
I am not defending this muslim but it is also Jewish wisdom which teaches that a married woman should not be talking with a man. This comes from the Jewish book of Wisdom called Pirkie Avos, {Wisdom of the Fathers}.

Pirkei Avot Chapter 1 Mishnah 5

"
5. Yosi ben Yochanan of Jerusalem said: Let your house be wide open and let the poor be members of thy household; and do not talk much with women. This was said about one's own wife; how much more so about the wife of one's neighbor. Therefore the sages have said: He who talks too much with women brings evil upon himself and neglects the study of the Torah and will in the end inherit Gehenna.
"

I dont know why the Muslims would listen to Jewish wisdom!?


For more information on this Torah wisdom refer to http://www.aish.com/spirituality/growth/The_Kindness_Paradox_Pirkei_Avot_15.asp


PS: It was wrong for him to complain to the manager about it. I would have explained the issue to the neighbor first...

PPS: I belong to an Orthodox Jewish shul and we have seperate men/women seating. I much prefer davening seperate from the women because they can be a distraction.


Muman, the Muslim guy complained because a man said "good morning" to his wife. The quote from Pirkei Avot doesn't say not to talk at all with women. It just says not to talk too much with women. Muslims have a habit of stealing Jewish ideas but taking them to an extreme. Mohammed stole the idea that eating pork should be forbidden from the Jews, but he took it to an extreme, saying that Muslims cannot even touch or be near a pig.

Offline muppet

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2009, 11:23:20 PM »
muman that's fair enough but they (Muslims) have gone to a Western part of the World, another set of rules and culture..

If they find Western culture offensive why move there?. Shouldn't he of stayed in Afghanistan..

If this feller was out of line and acting totally inappropriate well fair enough I could understand where he's (Husband) coming from but to just merely acknowledge someone.. Seems rather archaic.

 


Offline muman613

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 11:52:25 PM »
I do not know the nature of this situation and was just making a comparison to what Jewish belief is regarding seperation of men and women. It takes a bit of understanding, and understanding the concept of Tznuit {Modesty}. I believe that a man and woman must agree on what is acceptable in a marriage. I have learned the hard way not to trust my wife in her encounters with other men. I have forbidden her from talking to certain people who I consider to be bad influences on her. She ran off with another man many years ago and I have forgiven her, under the condition that she not associate with men who I do not condone.

Even Torah gives the husband the right to forbid his wife from certain people. There is an entire service {Sotah} which can be performed to discover if a wife has been unfaithful.

http://www.aish.com/torahportion/mayanot/Sotah.asp

The actual Portion from Torah which explains the laws of Sotah
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,34924.msg352363.html#msg352363

There is a concept in Judaism call Yichud, which means a man and woman cannot be in a closed room together. There are many laws concerning what is allowed between a man and a woman if they are not married.

Here is some pertinent information:

http://www.ou.org/index.php/abstinence/story/yichud/

Quote

Yichud: Don’t Go it Alone

The Gemara in Kiddushin (80b) discusses the prohibition for a man and a woman to be secluded alone together unless they are married or close relatives. This prohibition is called "yichud" ("seclusion" ) and the Talmud tells us (Sanhedrin 21b) that it is a Torah prohibition (as opposed to a Rabbinic enactment).

The laws of yichud are too complex and the opinions of the various authorities are too diverse for us to give anything approaching a full discussion here, so we'll just hit a few high points.

Aside from married couples and close relatives (such as parents or siblings), a man may not be alone with any woman and a woman may not be alone with any man. There are, however, several situations that mitigate the definition of "alone." These include:

* One of them has a spouse who could return home at any time;

* The door is open so that people can enter (or a situation like an elevator, where the door constantly opens and closes);

* There are two or more men present (three at night);

* A child is there (two at night).

Generally speaking, the authorities are lenient when it comes to questions of yichud involving adopted parents and siblings.

When it comes to abstinence, yichud is a very helpful halacha (Jewish law). Fighting temptation is much easier if you never put yourself in a situation private enough to become a problem!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 12:08:59 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muppet

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2009, 12:13:23 AM »
I am sorry to hear of your troubles Muman I now know and have a clearer understanding of where you are coming from..

Yes I do understand the call for modesty that impression has not been lost on me reading it in the OT, (Tanach). My wife totally abides by the teachings of the Bible so I can thank the good Lord I have a God fearing wife..

This year is dedicated to completing/reading the Bible from OT to NT. Next year I wish to read the Talmud.

Maybe then i'll have a much better understanding of the Laws.


Offline muman613

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 12:16:31 AM »
I am sorry to hear of your troubles Muman I now know and have a clearer understanding of where you are coming from..

Yes I do understand the call for modesty that impression has not been lost on me reading it in the OT, (Tanach ). My wife totally abides by the teachings of the Bible so I can thank the good Lord I have a G-d fearing wife..

This year is dedicated to completing/reading the Bible from OT to NT. Next year I wish to read the Talmud.

Maybe then i'll have a much better understanding of the Laws.



I don't understand why you call Torah OT... It is the only testament and divinely inspired. Any other scripture flies in absolute defiance of Torah. But don't get me started about that... I hope you learn something about Hashem from your studies.

PS: My repentence occured only after the divorce, and now our relationship is better and we may remarry.

PPS: I also want to clarify that I don't have any love of Islam, and hate it with a passion. But the hate is born from the fact that Islam is based on a false prophet and distortions of the Word of Hashem which was given to the Jews, through Moshe at Mount Sinai. I would like to remind everyone that Shavuot is next week and it is the actual day when we stood at the base of the mountain and said, "We will Do, And we will Hear!" or Na'ahseh VeNishma

http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5763/nasso/oshavuos63.htm
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 12:23:41 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muppet

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 12:21:14 AM »
Quote
I don't understand why you call Torah OT
I don't understand, in the Christian Bible it has The O/T  then follows with the New Testament. I'm Christian.

I thought the Torah is the Jewish Bible, am I correct?. It's all new to me so pardon my ignorance.

Offline muman613

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2009, 12:26:36 AM »
Quote
I don't understand why you call Torah OT
I don't understand, in the Christian Bible it has The O/T  then follows with the New Testament. I'm Christian.

I thought the Torah is the Jewish Bible, am I correct?. It's all new to me so pardon my ignorance.

OK, I understand now... Yes, you have called it the OT.. Torah can be used in two ways

1) The Five Books of Moses, also called Chumash

2) The entire teaching, both written and oral, which was passed down from father to son through the generations.

Tanach is the entire Jewish written scriptures including:

1) Torah

2) Navi'im or Prophets

3) Ketuvim or Writings

or Tanach

http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/bible.html

The Five Books of Moses (Chumash)

# Genesis
# Exodus
# Leviticus
# Numbers
# Deuteronomy

The Eight Books of the Prophets (Neviim)

# Joshua
# Judges
# Samuel
# Kings
# Isaiah
# Jeremiah
# Ezekial
# The Twelve (minor prophets) Trei-Assar

The Eleven Books of the Writings (Kesuvim)

# Psalms - Tehilim
# Proverbs - Mishlei
# Job - Iyov
# Song of Songs - Shir HaShirim
# Ruth - Rus
# Lamentations - Eicha
# Ecclesiastes - Koheles
# Esther
# Daniel - Doniel
# Ezra/Nehemia
# Chronicles - Divrei Hayamim
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 12:33:39 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muppet

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 12:47:53 AM »
Thank you for that link.. My journey continues  :) ..

Offline cjd

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2009, 05:23:11 AM »
Wow!! Living in Toronto has its down side. This so called doctor and his wife should have had a neighbor like me who would never say hello to him or much of anything else for that matter unless he said something first. Your neighbor from hell should live in  New York. Here he and his filthy wife could drop dead on the sidewalk and people would step right over the body. What has me more disturbed is the fact that he expects you to know that saying hello to his wife was unacceptable. It seems that the population of muslims in Toronto is a factor because your land lady seems to be reluctant to rock the boat.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

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Offline arksis

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2009, 08:28:27 AM »
muman that's fair enough but they (Muslims) have gone to a Western part of the World, another set of rules and culture..

If they find Western culture offensive why move there?. Shouldn't he of stayed in Afghanistan..

If this feller was out of line and acting totally inappropriate well fair enough I could understand where he's (Husband) coming from but to just merely acknowledge someone.. Seems rather archaic.

 



I have to agree, they moved to a different country with different values and if they don't like it, then get the hell out. This is what is soooooooooooooooo wrong with everyone! There is TOO MUCH tolerance!
---Never, ever deal with terrorists. Hunt them down and, more important, mercilessly punish those states and groups that fund, arm, support, or simply allow their territories to be used by the terrorists with impunity.
Meir Kahane

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2009, 08:54:28 AM »
I don't understand why you call Torah OT... It is the only testament and divinely inspired.

OT = Only Testament. Read those letters that way then there is no problem for you.  ;D

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Look out they're coming for you
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2009, 08:58:10 AM »
I think those Muslims were just being rude and nasty and if they don't like Canadian culture they should go back where they came from.

Canada like America was based on European heritage, not the Middle East.