I'm troubled please help

[muppet]

Hello all, I am agonising over a question, I didn't want to post it in the General thread due to the sensitive nature of the subject and thought best to post here.

I was watching a few of Chaims vids before well actually about 5 and I noticed one in the menu to the side witch caught my attention. I clicked on it and I think now it said something like, Real JTF'er or something like that.

It wasn't a JTF vid but one i'm thinking from a propaganda merchant.

The content really upset me.

A person was interviewing a Jewish Orthodox or possibly a Rabbi and the feller asked something about Jesus, the Jewish feller then replied Jesus was a bastard and I think he also commented about his crucifixion. I was rather upset by the way this feller ranted about 'my' messiah.

I wanted to provide a link but I was that upset at the time I nearly obliterated my monitor and turned into a human cyclone.

My question is do Jewish or Jewish Orthodox think this way about Jesus?

Please don't hold back on what you may think will upset me sometimes the truth does hurt.

[Lisa]

Muppet, I grew up attending an Orthodox Synagogue, along with their after school program.  The only time I ever heard a Rabbi mentioning Jesus was to say that the Romans crucified him and not the Jews. 

[Zelhar]

From a Jewish perspective Jesus is obviously a heretic Jew.

[GoIsraelGo!]

I was raised in Conservative Temples, I have never once heard Jesus mentioned in any way shape or form.
It is possible that the video you are refering to could have been created to make Jews look bad.
The person / Rabbi may not have been a Rabbi at all, the Muslims are famous for impersonating
the very people they are determined to kill. Muslims have perfected the art of lying and stealing
and grossly misleading people in order to further their cause for World dominance.


                                                 Shalom - Dox

[Zelhar]

I didn't see the video but I am inclined to believe this was a Jewish rabbi rather than an imposer. Some people just lack derech eretz (common courtesy).   

[msd]

Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah because he didn't fulfill all of the prophecies, or some say, any of them. However Christians believe he will fulfill them when he comes back.

More deeply, however, is the problem that Christians see Jesus as G-d, whereas Jews see G-d as formless and without a body. In Numbers it says that G-d isn't a man, and the references to G-d's hands and other body parts is taken as metaphorical.

I don't know whether Jews look down on bastards (people without a father), but they do look at Jesus as this, in the technical non-derogatory sense of the word. That is, he had a father of some kind, but the father didn't stay with the family, or wasn't Joseph and didn't marry Mary, therefore he is a bastard. "the illegitimate offspring of unmarried parents" But that rabbi may have meant it in a derogatory way; who knows, I'd have to see the clip.

Other Jews are skeptical that Jesus even lived. They wonder if the Gospel stories are just made up because they seem fantastic. I'm not sure why they would find them any more fantastic than the stories in The Tanach, though.

I think Jesus was a good man, but not G-d. He taught well, if we go by the gist of what he said. He was called rabbi by some of his followers. It's hard to argue with most of what he said because it was good, but a lot of what became the religion of Christianity is anathema to Judaism. Much of this originates with Paul and his epistles.


Edit to that last part that I struck through: I don't know that Jesus taught from God or was very righteous. He seemed to be a mentally ill person, with a fascinating philosophy and way of teaching, but not necessarily good, and not very Jewish -- certainly he was distinguished from the Pharisees, and modern Jews descend from those.

[Moshe92]

Was it Rabbi Mordechai Friedman?

[Moshe92]

Jesus is irrelevant in Judaism except for when Christians try to convert Jews or persecute Jews because they "killed Jesus" or because they don't believe in Jesus.

[muppet]

Moshe I don't know who it was. I was listening to him then when he exploded I kind of lost perspective of the clip.

I will however endeavor  to try and find this clip tonight when I come home from work.

MSD after reading the bible, yes I grew up with it as a child but only recently have taken it upon myself to thoroughly read it.

But the one thing that strikes me in the bible and that doesn't make sense.. If Jesus wasn't all that he was cracked up to be why did his Disciples and followers follow him to their deaths?

If he wasn't true and what he did wasn't true wouldn't it of been easier for others to save their own backsides, denounce him and live prosperous lives?

To me if a person is willing to forsake their own lives suffer much brutality and torture then there 'HAS' to be substance. It just doesn't make sense otherwise.

The other take is that if it wasn't for Jesus then today there would be Judaism, Paganism and the other Paganism (Islam). There probably wouldn't be any Jews left because the West as we know it would either be Pagan believers or Islamic (Pagan) believers.

Another HUGE downside to no Jesus would be why would Pagans feel a sense of responsibility or feeling to take in or seek justice for the wrongdoings against Jews.

The more I study about Jesus the more I see the overall importance of him coming into the World.

The more I seek him the more I respect and absolutely revere him.

I will try my hardest to find this clip tonight. Take care all I do appreciate your replies.

[muman613]

I definately believe he is not Moshiach, nor is he G-d... He was a misguided individual who lead many, many astray. His 'religion' is the religion of Essau, the enemy of the Jewish people.
But there are good Christians who support Israel... I don't like evangelicals because they are out to convert Jews... I just with the entire religion would go away because there is much proof that he was not the messiah nor was he a man-god {which is heresy in Jewish religion}

Im sorry if this is not the answer you want to hear...

[muppet]

Sorry all I tried to find the link and have failed.

Muman what proof do you have, could you please elaborate.

If this is the feeling then there's nothing I can do about it. It will be pretty hard for me to bring others that believe over to defend and back the Jewish against the plague that draws ever closer everyday seeing as this is how Christians are seen.

Oh well cheers thank you for your openness that much is sincerely appreciated.
Bye 

[Spectator]

If this is the feeling then there's nothing I can do about it. It will be pretty hard for me to bring others that believe over to defend and back the Jewish against the plague that draws ever closer everyday seeing as this is how Christians are seen.

Judaism never disregards a person because he follows Christianity or any other religion. It is true that the Jews do not believe in Christianity. But we judge people according to what they do and not by what they believe.

If Christian missionary tries to convert Jews to his religion, this is definitely bad, because this leads the Jews to breaking G-d's will. In all other cases we don't have anything against Christians.

We can be friends as ordinary people, our states can have strategic relations. There is nothing personal or chauvinistic in our inacceptance of other religions.

From our side, we don't try to convert anyone to Judaism or to impose our values in any other form. We respect personal and national self-determination.

[Spectator]

I definately believe he is not Moshiach, nor is he G-d... He was a misguided individual who lead many, many astray. His 'religion' is the religion of Essau, the enemy of the Jewish people.

Muman what proof do you have, could you please elaborate.

It is quite possible that you are NOT talking about the same person. There is a common understanding in Judaism that there is nothing common between Jesus Christians believe in and Yeshu mentioned in Jewish sources. The Rabbis say that Christian Jesus never existed and his personality and biography was invented by Apostle Paul. This was done because old pagan worldview was in crisis and couldn't give a hope to people anymore.

I understand that such explanation may seem insulting to some Christians.
But Christianity's attitude to Judaism may as well seem insulting to some Jews.

In short, Christianity states that Judaism is outdated/overruled and Judaism states that Christianity is artificial.

I only don't understand why people of both religions should take it personally. There is still much common between the two religions. Christians say "don't kill" and Jews say "don't kill". Christians say "don't steal" and Jews say "don't steal"..

We can be friends as ordinary people, our states can have strategic relations. And let evreyone believe in what he believes.

[Zelhar]

Moshe I don't know who it was. I was listening to him then when he exploded I kind of lost perspective of the clip.

I will however endeavor  to try and find this clip tonight when I come home from work.

MSD after reading the bible, yes I grew up with it as a child but only recently have taken it upon myself to thoroughly read it.

But the one thing that strikes me in the bible and that doesn't make sense.. If Jesus wasn't all that he was cracked up to be why did his Disciples and followers follow him to their deaths?

Lots of self proclaimed prophets of some sort had disciples following them to death. What about Jim Jones, wasn't he all cracked up and yet people followed him to their death ?

If he wasn't true and what he did wasn't true wouldn't it of been easier for others to save their own backsides, denounce him and live prosperous lives?
To me if a person is willing to forsake their own lives suffer much brutality and torture then there 'HAS' to be substance. It just doesn't make sense otherwise.

There is no correlation between peoples choices to follow a faith and the actual truth behind their faith.

The other take is that if it wasn't for Jesus then today there would be Judaism, Paganism and the other Paganism (Islam). There probably wouldn't be any Jews left because the West as we know it would either be Pagan believers or Islamic (Pagan) believers.

Another HUGE downside to no Jesus would be why would Pagans feel a sense of responsibility or feeling to take in or seek justice for the wrongdoings against Jews.

The more I study about Jesus the more I see the overall importance of him coming into the World.

There is no question Jesus is a big 'player' on the stage of history. However, I don't think Christianity's net contribution to the world is positive. Western civilization sure did, but I am not at all convinced it was because of religion.

[msd]

MSD after reading the bible, yes I grew up with it as a child but only recently have taken it upon myself to thoroughly read it.

That's good! I've only read the Gospels and the Torah, and a few of the writings (Ecclesiastes, which was actually the book that brought me back to a faith in God).

But the one thing that strikes me in the bible and that doesn't make sense.. If Jesus wasn't all that he was cracked up to be why did his Disciples and followers follow him to their deaths?

If he wasn't true and what he did wasn't true wouldn't it of been easier for others to save their own backsides, denounce him and live prosperous lives?

To me if a person is willing to forsake their own lives suffer much brutality and torture then there 'HAS' to be substance. It just doesn't make sense otherwise.

There is substance. Jesus was a Jew and taught others to believe in God. He taught many good things, such as in his Sermon on the Mount. But loving a man to the point that you give your life for him is evidence of idolatry for that man, I think.

You may be interested in this man's books:

http://www.amazon.com/Geza-Vermes/e/B000AP7RS8/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1

You say, "if what he did wasn't true." You're probably talking about the miracles. In Jewish tradition, a wicked man may practice miracles, even though they come from God; it's not proof of him being divine or on God's side. God sometimes tests people and Jesus has been seen as a great tempter (to lead Jews astray from the faith).

However, Jesus did say that no jot or tittle would pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. Presumably not all has been fulfilled, so this means that the Law (the Torah) is still supposed to be practiced by Jews according to Jesus.

But there are too many heretical things written in the Gospels for it to be true. For instance, at the end of Matthew it says that all power in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus. Do you really believe this?

This is why Jews (and Mohammedans) believe that the Trinity idea is polytheistic, because Jesus is spoken of as having prayed to G-d, then received omnipotent powers from him, etc. Plus there is that admonition that saying anything against the Holy Spirit is a blasphemy that can't be forgiven -- as far as I know, all sins can be forgiven in Judaism.

There's a lot of "subtle" differences like this. I could continue writing on and on about it (my background is Methodist, my family upbringing).

[Raulmarrio2000]

Just for clarification. According to Jewish Law, a mamzer (generally trasnlated to English as "bastard") is someone born as a Jew (that is, from a Jewish mother) whose birth WITHOUT DOUBT IS the result of adultery or incest.
A Jew/ess whose father is unknown is NOT NECCESSARILY a mamzer, only that for practical reasons, since there is always a dim possiblity that his/her unknown father could be related to his mather (incest), the restrictions that apply to Mamzerim also apply to him or her. Mamzer is NOT a derogatory term and it only implies some restrictions regarding whom he/she is allowed to marry. 
That legal satus of "possible mamzer" only apply to living persons in order to decide whom he/she can marry, so the issue cannot apply to Jesus.
Regarding heresy, Judaism obviously says that anyone who disregards Torah or teaches something contrary to Halacha, is an heretic Jew. However a Rabbi would never say that Jesus was an heretic Jew since he does not believe in what the Gospels say about Jesus' teachings. If a Jew (based in what the Gospel say) decided that Jesus was an herectic Jew, then it would imply that that Jew believes in the Gospel (and Judaism forbids to use any religious book outside the Jewish Cannon). On the other side, if a Rabbi believed in the historicty of Jesus (through ant historical source outside the Gospel) he would never say whether he taught something herectic or not, since there are no non-religious records about what Jesus taught.
In conclusion, Judaism itself has nothing to say about Jesus, neither good nor bad. There is no Jewish dogma saying that he was a mamzer or an herectic, or even that he did or didn't exist. Judaism only says that G-d is One and He is not a man and Mashiach will be simply a man who will come in future to fullfill certain prophesies. The personal opinion of a Rav (providing that he is really a Rav, and not a Muslim imposer) reagarding the history of another religion is only that, an opinion.

[muman613]

What he taught his disciples is considered heresy according to Jewish halacha. His teachings, that he is G-d is obviously a heretical idea. It violates the most basic principle that G-d is not corporeal. So I don't see how you consider it not heresy. I also have heard many Rabbis explain how Christianity is indeed idolatry and a violation of both Torah and the Noachide laws. It doesnt require studying their scriptures to know that this is the case.

Obviously Judaism doesn't spend much time discussing this religion, considering throughout history our people were oppressed at the hands of the church. What do you make of "Essau hates Isaac"? Or Edom is Rome is Christianity. And there is the halacha that christianity is idolatry.

We don't have any hatred for non-Jews but we must make sure that Jews do not become led astray by missionaries, as their religion targets Jews to convert. There are many good sites which refute the Christian myths and mistranslation.

There are many Christian ideas which are heretical from a Jewish standpoint. Of course it is only heretical for a Jew to hold these.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Muman, the teachings of the Gospel are obviusly herectic according to the Jewish Law, and as you say, there are some opinons that they are also a violation of the Noahide Laws. But there is no Jewish Law ordering to believe Jesus existed or not, or to believe he taught what the Gospels say or not.
A Jew (and perhaps also a Noahide) is forbidden to accept the ideas of the Gospel, and if the Gospel is not reliable, then no Jew would use it to prove Jesus existed or taught this or that.

[AsheDina]

Well, I am glad this one is over.
We ALL have this one thing in common.
We love G-d. Some people here are secular as well, but searching.
I love G-d, it is a battle of good over evil and G-ds team wins.
If you love the Great G-d of Israel, then you cant lose.

[Chavak]

But the one thing that strikes me in the bible and that doesn't make sense.. If Jesus wasn't all that he was cracked up to be why did his Disciples and followers follow him to their deaths?
If he wasn't true and what he did wasn't true wouldn't it of been easier for others to save their own backsides, denounce him and live prosperous lives?
To me if a person is willing to forsake their own lives suffer much brutality and torture then there 'HAS' to be substance. It just doesn't make sense otherwise.

That really isn't a relevant point. Millions of Jews have been killed over the last two thousand years rather than give up their faith. They went to their
death rather renounce G-d and Torah and accept another religion.

Does that therefore make Judaism the "correct" religion from your point of view?

Today Muslims kill themselves all the time in the name of their G-d and prophet and religion. Does this make Islam the true faith (G-d forbid)?

The other take is that if it wasn't for Jesus then today there would be Judaism, Paganism and the other Paganism (Islam). There probably wouldn't be any Jews left because the West as we know it would either be Pagan believers or Islamic (Pagan) believers.

Judaism and Jews would be far better off....Millions of Jews who have been lost to Christian slaughter and forced conversion and expulsions (and I don't want to side track the discussion there, I am simply making a point) would be alive. Christians would not be out trying to convert Jews; Messianics would not be out trying to copy Judaism.

Another HUGE downside to no Jesus would be why would Pagans feel a sense of responsibility or feeling to take in or seek justice for the wrongdoings against Jews.

I really don't understand this point at all. Do you think that people who are not Christians have no moral compass?

The more I study about Jesus the more I see the overall importance of him coming into the World.

The more I seek him the more I respect and absolutely revere him.

That is all well and good, Jews in general have no issues with gentiles following the Christian faith...as long as it does not interfere with our beliefs and lives