Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Separate gender seating Mehadrin buses
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on June 07, 2009, 02:54:09 PM ---Regarding the issue of 'looking at women' I found this Daf Yomi from 'Avodah Zarah' which makes this request {separate seating} seem more understandable.
--- End quote ---
The request is not any more understandable from this information. In fact, it is proof against your case. This whole discussion of guarding one's eyes is precisely about individual self-control. There shouldn't be billboards with women in revealing clothing, but on the other hand, you CANNOT ENFORCE a person to not look at women (living breathing women in society) for enjoyment or in a promiscuous manner. A man has to control himself and be encouraged to do so. You cannot enforce Judaism on people with Taliban-style fundamentalist extremism.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 07, 2009, 04:37:17 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on June 07, 2009, 02:54:09 PM ---Regarding the issue of 'looking at women' I found this Daf Yomi from 'Avodah Zarah' which makes this request {separate seating} seem more understandable.
--- End quote ---
The request is not any more understandable from this information. In fact, it is proof against your case. This whole discussion of guarding one's eyes is precisely about individual self-control. There shouldn't be billboards with women in revealing clothing, but on the other hand, you CANNOT ENFORCE a person to not look at women (living breathing women in society) for enjoyment or in a promiscuous manner. A man has to control himself and be encouraged to do so. You cannot enforce Judaism on people with Taliban-style fundamentalist extremism.
--- End quote ---
So you do suggest that the men wear some kind of blindfold? How can a man go to work, or to any destination, using this transportation without coming to gaze unintentionally at a woman. I do believe that this may be a part of the question. There is something to lose when a man must worry about whether he will somehow come to sin because of gazing at these women.
Obviously you put the whole responsibility on those who want to prevent their souls from transgression. I obviously don't agree with you and I don't agree that this is a taliban-style imposition. Every Jew {and I assume this bus is for religious Jews} should be able to operate in their community without being forced to commit sins. I am sure that there are non-separate methods of transport in these places also. I see no reason that the operator of the bus lines can cater to this community and meet the stricter requirements of those who live according to Rabbinic Torah Judaism.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on June 07, 2009, 04:49:27 PM ---So you do suggest that the men wear some kind of blindfold?
--- End quote ---
Why does a man need a blindfold in order to not gawk at women? He just needs self-control. The issur is not "a woman entering the field of vision of the eyeball" .... The issur is to take PLEASURE out of looking at women. That means gazing and "checking them out." Why can't a man prevent himself from doing this? Not everyone is a pervert that gawks at every woman.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on June 07, 2009, 04:49:27 PM ---How can a man go to work, or to any destination, using this transportation without coming to gaze unintentionally at a woman.
--- End quote ---
Forget about transportation. There are women in the workplace too. And get this, there are even women who dare to walk outside on the sidewalk! Oh heavens, how will the men keep their pants on?! The same way Jewish men have always done so (or at least the good Jewish men) - With SELF CONTROL.
When G-d says not to eat pork, does that mean we have to go around massacring pigs wherever they might be? Root out the hog from society? No. It means don't eat it, even if some goyim insist on packaging bacon and distributing in supermarkets. You cannot root out the evil inclination from the world by "banning" it. People need to resist temptation.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on June 07, 2009, 04:49:27 PM ---
{and I assume this bus is for religious Jews}
--- End quote ---
Once again, you assumed wrong. This is a public bus line that SOME haredi Jews are trying to coerce to adopt certain standards just because it happens to run through certain neighborhoods that are mostly religious. It is amazing to me how insistent you are about defending certain points of view when you admit that you don't really know about them or at least admit to be operating on assumptions (which often turn out false). Why not check out the facts and see if your assumptions are true before trying to convince other people of untenable positions?
--- Quote ---
should be able to operate in their community without being forced to commit sins.
--- End quote ---
It is not a sin to ride on a bus with men and women seated near each other. This is what we meant when we said that there is not a HALACHIC basis for the separate seating. That means, halachically, there is no violation of Jewish law to have the buses with normal seating. Therefore no sin. No one is forced to gawk at members of the opposite sex. And in the big bad world out there when people step off the bus, there are no mechitzas to prevent gawking at women on the sidewalk either. Because that is insane.
--- Quote --- I am sure that there are non-separate methods of transport in these places also. I see no reason that the operator of the bus lines can cater to this community and meet the stricter requirements of those who live according to Rabbinic Torah Judaism.
--- End quote ---
You miss the point entirely. These extremists are trying to coerce the buslines. And in doing so, they intend to force them to adopt these standards so that there are not any longer "non-separate methods of transport in these places also" . And what gives them the authority or jurisdiction to do so? Nothing.
There are many Jews who live according to "Rabbinic Torah Judaism" (MYSELF INCLUDED) who do not agree with this silly sociopathic demand of certain haredi extremists. There are even haredi Jews who do not find this demand appropriate. As such, they DISAGREE with the extremists and with you that these stringencies are "requirements" of Judaism. They are not requirements. That was the whole basis on which several commenters in this thread argued against this crazy chumrah.
You should have quit while you could have saved face. After admitting ignorance on the issue, you then stated that your opinion was that it was good for society to have separation. It is one thing to state an opinion based on "personal preference." It is quite another to start asserting that your opinion is actually mandated by Jewish law. It isn't. And you certainly can't prove it.
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