Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Separate gender seating Mehadrin buses
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 03, 2009, 11:07:54 AM ---That picture looks more like a greyhound bus line than an Israeli public bus, and if that was really a view of a mehadrin line, I find it hard to believe the men's section could be so tiny! They have about 5 rows of seats in the front!
I doubt whoever supposedly took this picture would ever have the guts to even get on one of those mehadrin buses.
BTW "flechette" it was quite obvious who you are from the moment you started posting here. You didn't think you were fooling any of us did you?
Just to chime in on the discussion I am against the silly idea for separate buses. There is not a basis in halacha, and this is simply a chassidishe-invented societal chumra (extreme chumra, probably invented in modern settlement of kiryat yoel in monroe ny) being adopted by the general haredi public which apparently as it becomes a bigger demographic becomes more and more imaginative and has a greater sense of entitlement. This was not the societal norm of religious society as a whole in Israel, and there is no reason to make this a societal norm except fanatacism. No one, of even the "frummest" Jews in Israel could have even imagined such a scenario on the Israeli public bus system 10 or 15 years ago, let alone when the state first began, as seating was never mandated to different sections of the bus. It is the ignorant masses who don't understand Judaism and think "frumkeit" and man-woman separation defines Judaism that want this chumrah enforced.
And before anyone starts crowing about "gedolim" who signed on to this crazy idea, I GUARANTEE you that there are some rabbis in support of this thing who are only supporting it because their hand has been forced by ignorant extremists and the masses of idiots who want it. And knowing some rabbis who are close to gedolim, this unfortunately DOES happen in Jewish society.
--- End quote ---
I think seperate seating is a wonderful thing and it prevents socializing like Pirkie Avos suggests. Men and women who are not married, especially, and even married men and women should not socialize lest they come to sin. This is not a 'new' invention, it is a central idea of Judaism. Do you think the men were dancing with the women during the Song of the Sea? I have heard it said that Miriam danced with the woman but the men did not dance. This is one reason, I believe, that men and women dance separate.
This thing which you don't understand about Chassidism is that a Chassid does go beyond the letter of the law. While Torah doesn't explicitly mention any mitzvah concerning seperation, it is implied. There certainly is a lack of tzniut in the world, especially in modern civilization where you cannot escape lurid and immodest images, women wearing beach clothes on the street, and immodest talk between males and females. Seperate seating, both in shul, and in public is a good measure to prevent these kinds of things.
Let me find some sources to back up what I am saying:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3246/jewish/Why-Is-Torah-Law-So-Restrictive-of-Contact-Between-the-Genders.htm
--- Quote ---
Question:
I understand that Torah law forbids all physical contact between a man and a woman -- or even for them to be alone in a room together -- unless they are first-degree relatives or married to each other. This applies to any man and any woman, regardless of their ages or whether or not they are sexually attracted to each other. And then there are all those rules about "modest" dress. Isn't that carrying it a bit far? Are we really such animals?
Answer:
When a man and woman are together in a room, and the door closes, that is a sexual event. Not because of what is going to happen, but what has already happened. It may not be something to make novels of, but it is a sexual occurrence, because male and female is what sexuality used to be all about.
It is true that in our world today, in the "free world" certainly, people have, on the whole, stopped thinking in these terms. What happened was that we started putting up all these defenses, getting steeled, inured, against the constant exposure and stimulation of men and women sharing all sorts of activities -- co-educational school, camps, gyms -- is that we started blocking out groups of people. We can't be as naturally sexual as G-d created us to be. When a man says, "I have a woman friend, but we're just friends, nothing more, I'm not attracted to her in any sexual way, she's not my type," you've got to ask yourself what is really going on here. Is this a disciplined person? Or is this a person who has died a little bit?
What does he mean "she's not my type?" When did all this typing come into existence? It's all artificial. It's not true to human sexuality. And it really isn't even true in this particular context because given a slight change of circumstance, you could very easily be attracted. After all, you are a male, she's a female. How many times does a relationship begin that is casual, neighborly, and then suddenly becomes intimate? The great awakening of this boy and girl who are running around, doing all sorts of things, sharing all sorts of activities, and lo and behold, they realize -- what drama, what drama -- that they are attracted to each other. These are grown-ups, intelligent human beings, and it caught them by surprise. It's kind of silly.
So closing a door should be recognized as a sexual event. And you need to ask yourself: Are you prepared for this? Is it permissible? Is it proper? If not, leave the door open. Should men and women shake hands? Should it be seen as an intimate gesture? Should any physical contact that is friendly be considered intimate? Hopefully, it should.
These laws are not guarantees against sin. They have never completely prevented it. There are people who dress very modestly. They cover everything. They sin. It's a little more cumbersome but they manage. All these laws are not just there to lessen the possibility of someone doing something wrong. They also preserve sexuality -- because human sexuality is what G-d wants. He gave us these laws to preserve it, to enhance it -- and makes sure it's focused to the right places and circumstances -- not to stifle it.
We have become callous about our sexuality. Even in marriage, a kiss on the run cheapens it, makes it callous -- then we run to the therapist for advice. And do you know what the therapist who charges $200 an hour for his advice says? He tells the couple not to touch each other for two weeks. Judaism tells you that free of charge. Yes, there are two weeks each month during which a husband and wife don't touch. This therapy has been around for 3000 years. And it still works. It's a wonderful idea.
When you don't close the door on yourself and that other person, you are recognizing your own sexuality. You are acknowledging the sexuality of the other person. Being modest, recognizing our borders, knowing where intimacy begins and not waiting until it is so intimate that we're too far gone, is a very healthy way of living. It doesn't change your lifestyle dramatically, but enhances it dramatically, and you come away more capable of relaxing, better able to be spontaneous, because you know that you can trust yourself. You've defined your borders. Now you can be free. It takes a load off your mind and it makes you a much more lovable person.
--- End quote ---
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on June 03, 2009, 05:04:19 PM ---
I think seperate seating is a wonderful thing and it prevents socializing like Pirkie Avos suggests. Men and women who are not married, especially, and even married men and women should not socialize lest they come to sin. This is not a 'new' invention, it is a central idea of Judaism. Do you think the men were dancing with the women during the Song of the Sea? I have heard it said that Miriam danced with the woman but the men did not dance. This is one reason, I believe, that men and women dance separate.
--- End quote ---
Muman, you can quote me a whole book and it is not going to cause me to accept your propaganda. If men and women are in danger of "socializing" and "coming to sin" they can choose not to ride the bus or to sit by other women or by other men and keep their mouths shut. They don't have a right to mandate it for everyone else who CAN control themselves.
Furthermore, it is ridiculous for you to compare normal bus seating with mixed dancing, as mixed dancing IS forbidden by halacha, while sitting in the same public place as people of the opposite sex, without a mechitza or some type of gender-specific seating arrangement, IS NOT. It has absolutely no makor (source) for being assur (forbidden) except in your imagination. Consider a bus to be a moving room. A moving public room. Like a moving auditorium. And no there is not an issue of yichud here (nor would any separate-bus proponents claim it to be). So it is equally absurd that you brought a source about that as if there is any comparison.
You can think something to be a wonderful thing, and that's your right, but that does not make it obligated upon the Jewish people, even if it was a wonderful thing (which I don't think it is, nor do many of the women victimized by it). Judaism is a sane religion. Some of us will not allow it to be commandeered by those who wish to impose their own irrationality upon everyone else.
--- Quote ---Do you think the men were dancing with the women during the Song of the Sea?
--- End quote ---
Did I ever suggest this? Although I am certainly not convinced by "you heard it said." Anyone can say anything.
But I believe it is in the Rashi if I remember correctly. That doesn't mean everyone agrees. Furthermore I am not entirely familiar with the halacha of mixed dancing. It is erroneous to automatically assume that every single thing we do today is straight from Sinai. But it is possible that this has an ancient source. I won't deny that at this point before looking into it further. Have you studied the Talmudic sugiya discussing mixed dancing? I certainly haven't yet but would like to.
Of course if they succeed in establishing separate lines, they will probably tell us that this was always done by frum Jews since buses were invented. Starting with separate camel seating for husbands and wives and male and female children when they used to travel to the Temple.
judeanoncapta:
I think this is psychotic and is not mandated by Halakha at all.
This is further proof that the haredi ideology has nothing to offer the jewish people but psychoses.
Harzel:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on June 04, 2009, 04:38:31 PM ---I think this is psychotic and is not mandated by Halakha at all.
This is further proof that the haredi ideology has nothing to offer the jewish people but psychoses.
--- End quote ---
I agree with you, except that I have to say not even all Hardis want this 'glat kosher' bus.
GoIsraelGo!:
At my brothers Chabad Center the women sit on the left and the men sit on the right.
I have not seen the men up front and women in the back.
Is this a different sect of Judaism where the women sit in the back?
Shalom - Dox
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