I don't understand right-wing American Jews

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Regardless of government, the Torah demands that we make aliyah to Israel (when possible, and today it is certainly possible) in order to constitute/reconstitute/maintain Jewish national existence and carry out G-d's commandments to their fullest extent. 

I know that, I am just explaining why I personally don't have a right to judge them.

Fair enough.   As an observer it is wise for you not to judge people in a given situation.  This is good as a general rule, and especially regarding Jews and their observance of jewish law (not up to gentiles to have a say over that)...  However, that being said, it must be made clear in this forum (at least by me or some Jewish person) for any Jew reading this that there is a moral imperative for the Jewish people to end their national malaise, realize the full depth and truth of what the Torah is saying, and step up to this challenge where G-d has commanded us to go to Israel in the Torah and halacha as brought down by the great poskim.  And so by responding to you I am clarifying this issue for people. 

Jews here need to know that without this crucial mitzvah, most of what we really aspire to be is deemed an impossibility.  Thus the curse that the galuth really is.   And Rav Kahane certainly as one of the main points in his speeches, urged all Jews to make aliyah and build up the land of Israel.

[Spectator]

Hi Levi,

Just speaking for myself, I was born in the USA, I identify with America and American culture, I don't call myself a hyphenated American, I call myself an American, I don't speak Hebrew, and to be honest, outside of this board, I have very few interactions with other Jews, so in Israel I'd be like a fish out of water, honestly, drop me off in Texas, and I'd be far more comfortable than I would be in Israel, at least in Texas I could ask where the bathroom is.  That said, I give Israel my support 100% and any political pressure I can put on American politicians in Israel's favor I will.

I understand you very well and respect your opinion. I moved to Israel only at the age of 20 and I still have sentiments to the place where I was born. Besides, it is a fact that up to now the U.S. was good to the Jews (at least compared to the other nations).

That said, I think KWR-BT is 100% right.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Well, it's their right to go where they please. Unfortunately the Israeli regime is not much better than Barack Hussein Obama. You aren't allowed to own a gun, express your views, or anything. Honestly I can't blame Jews who don't want to live in the Holy Land (not that any galut governments are an improvement).

I agree with you, I don't think it is fair that anyone of a different religion or race is allowed to go anywhere in the World while Jews are expected to live in Israel only.
 

G-d disagrees with you.   He commands the Jewish people as a mitzvah to make aliyah (go to Israel and conquer it/settle the land).   It is preferred over any other land in the world.   That being said it is not an actual prohibition to live elsewhere.  

What you are saying is true in the sense that if goyim made it illegal for a Jew to live somewhere that would be "unfair," but certainly it is not "unfair" of G-d to give to the Jewish nation a certain land in which to establish their culture of Torah and serving G-d, and to command the Jewish people to go and live there, to have an attachment to that particular land over all others, or else such nation cannot exist in its purest form.   There is no nation without a land to establish it in.  This is clear.  

                                                                                                                                                                           בס''ד

You are mistaken. It is a very serious sin to live in the cursed galut (exile) - which means living in any land outside of Israel.

"כל הדר בארץ ישראל - דומה כמי שיש לו אלוה, וכל הדר בחוצה לארץ - דומה כמי שאין לו אלוה"
(מסכת כתובות, הגמרא)

Translation: "Anyone who lives in the land of Israel is like someone who has a G-d, and anyone who lives outside of the land is like someone who has no G-d" (Masechet Ketuvot, HaGamara)

 ישיבת ארץ ישראל שקולה כנגד כל המצוות שבתורה
(ספרי ראה נ"ג, תוספתא ע"ז ה, ב)

Translation: "Settling the land of Israel is equal to all of the commandments that are in the Torah". (Sifre נ''ג, Tosefta ע''ז, ה, ב )

To suggest that it is permitted to live in the cursed galut is like suggesting that it is permitted to violate the Torah commandments, G-d forbid. Are we also permitted to violate Shabbat, G-d forbid?

To show how important the commandment of living in Israel is, we are allowed to ask a Gentile to prepare a contract to purchase land in Israel even on Shabbat. We are not allowed to ask Gentiles to prepare any other business affairs for us on Shabbat. This is just one example of how the commandment of settling the land of Israel often supersedes even some of the laws of Shabbat.

If a husband wants to move to Israel and his wife refuses, the husband can automatically divorce her and does not have to pay her alimony under Jewish law.

If a wife wants to move to Israel and her husband refuses, the Beit Din (Rabbinic court) can force the husband to give his wife a divorce.

You cannot be a Torah-true Jew outside of Israel because many of the 613 Torah commandments apply only to the land of Israel. Therefore, in the cursed galut, you are living in a land where it is impossible to truly observe the Torah.

[Confederate Kahanist]

David Ben Moshe does not want to go there.  I would, b/c I know:

On that day I will make Jerusalem a stone too heavy for all the nations to lift. All who try to lift it will be severely injured. All the nations in the world will gather [to fight] against Jerusalem.”

Zecheriah 12  that time is now here

How come David does not want to go to Israel?

[Dan]

If more Right Wing Jews DID move to Israel, then the shift of power would happen as well... literally over night!
The current(treasonous) government of Israel is precisely the reason why you SHOULD move to the Land of Israel!

[AsheDina]

David Ben Moshe does not want to go there.  I would, b/c I know:

On that day I will make Jerusalem a stone too heavy for all the nations to lift. All who try to lift it will be severely injured. All the nations in the world will gather [to fight] against Jerusalem.”

Zecheriah 12  that time is now here

How come David does not want to go to Israel?

 Because he is an American, and considers Israel a foreign nation.  But, he also does NOT face the hatred and murdering crime talk I bear EVERYDAY. 
 I am 100% patriotic American, but now, ONLY thought of, (excuse me) as just another "Dirty Jew" 

 So, I would go in a HEART BEAT if I could, but I love David, and G-d put me with him.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You are mistaken. It is a very serious sin to live in the cursed galut (exile) - which means living in any land outside of Israel.

"כל הדר בארץ ישראל - דומה כמי שיש לו אלוה, וכל הדר בחוצה לארץ - דומה כמי שאין לו אלוה"
(מסכת כתובות, הגמרא)

Translation: "Anyone who lives in the land of Israel is like someone who has a G-d, and anyone who lives outside of the land is like someone who has no G-d" (Masechet Ketuvot, HaGamara)

 ישיבת ארץ ישראל שקולה כנגד כל המצוות שבתורה
(ספרי ראה נ"ג, תוספתא ע"ז ה, ב)

Translation: "Settling the land of Israel is equal to all of the commandments that are in the Torah". (Sifre נ''ג, Tosefta ע''ז, ה, ב )

To suggest that it is permitted to live in the cursed galut is like suggesting that it is permitted to violate the Torah commandments, G-d forbid. Are we also permitted to violate Shabbat, G-d forbid?

To show how important the commandment of living in Israel is, we are allowed to ask a Gentile to prepare a contract to purchase land in Israel even on Shabbat. We are not allowed to ask Gentiles to prepare any other business affairs for us on Shabbat. This is just one example of how the commandment of settling the land of Israel often supersedes even some of the laws of Shabbat.

If a husband wants to move to Israel and his wife refuses, the husband can automatically divorce her and does not have to pay her alimony under Jewish law.

If a wife wants to move to Israel and her husband refuses, the Beit Din (Rabbinic court) can force the husband to give his wife a divorce.

You cannot be a Torah-true Jew outside of Israel because many of the 613 Torah commandments apply only to the land of Israel. Therefore, in the cursed galut, you are living in a land where it is impossible to truly observe the Torah.

Chaim, I am not advocating that Jews remain in the galut--I am just explaining why many of them think they have valid reasons to, and that it is nobody's right (least of all any Gentile's) to tell Jews where they can and cannot live. As far as I am concerned, this is between them and G-d. As a devout Jewish activist, you can encourage them strongly to make aliyah, but that is not my place, or any government's place. You don't see any people saying where Muslims can and can't live, after all.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Why do right-wing, Zionist Jews continue to live in America ?

There are several reasons. I will enumerate some of them from my perspective as a secular Jew living in America.

Life is easy and good in America. I have rarely encountered anti-Semitism in America (although it always lurks in the background and might be on the upswing).

America is a huge and beautiful nation. One has the freedom to live in a multitude of varying regions and climates, cities or suburbs.

In comparison, life in Israel is probably tougher. It can't be a good feeling to live in such a tiny nation surrounded by vile disgusting koranimals constantly trying to murder you.

Many Jews (and I sometimes consider myself among them) are Jews in name only. We do not keep Kosher or observe Shabbat. We do not feel a Torah driven mandate or obligation to live in Israel.

So why would I even consider living in Israel ?  I'm not a spring chicken, I'm financially secure, and a move to Israel would be difficult and costly.

I'll tell you why.

Even though I am not observant, I'm still a Jew. This might sound crazy, but in my heart, I've always known I'm a Jew first and an American second. I can't explain it, I'm not religious, but I'm a Jew and proud of it. I love my heritage. I have an affinity for Jewish culture and values. I feel guilt about letting my Jewish brothers and sisters in Israel do the dirty and dangerous work necessary to ensure that Israel remains a haven for Jews that are persecuted worldwide.

Maybe one day I'll get off my comfortable tuchas and make the move that my heart knows is right. Maybe one day the move will become a necessity. 

[New Yorker]

Why do right-wing, Zionist Jews continue to live in America ?

There are several reasons. I will enumerate some of them from my perspective as a secular Jew living in America.

Life is easy and good in America. I have rarely encountered anti-Semitism in America (although it always lurks in the background and might be on the upswing).

America is a huge and beautiful nation. One has the freedom to live in a multitude of varying regions and climates, cities or suburbs.

In comparison, life in Israel is probably tougher. It can't be a good feeling to live in such a tiny nation surrounded by vile disgusting koranimals constantly trying to murder you.

Many Jews (and I sometimes consider myself among them) are Jews in name only. We do not keep Kosher or observe Shabbat. We do not feel a Torah driven mandate or obligation to live in Israel.

So why would I even consider living in Israel ?  I'm not a spring chicken, I'm financially secure, and a move to Israel would be difficult and costly.

I'll tell you why.

Even though I am not observant, I'm still a Jew. This might sound crazy, but in my heart, I've always known I'm a Jew first and an American second. I can't explain it, I'm not religious, but I'm a Jew and proud of it. I love my heritage. I have an affinity for Jewish culture and values. I feel guilt about letting my Jewish brothers and sisters in Israel do the dirty and dangerous work necessary to ensure that Israel remains a haven for Jews that are persecuted worldwide.

Maybe one day I'll get off my comfortable tuchas and make the move that my heart knows is right. Maybe one day the move will become a necessity. 

I'm exactly what you described. Not observant, but vigorously pro-Israel and feel a strong tie to my Jewish brothers and sisters. Funny world isn't it, you see so many so called "observant" Jews acting as traitors to Israel and their Jewish brethren, and here you have two non-observant Jews with their heads screwed on straight and with true loyalty. Go figure.

[Dan]

This is Great Stuff!
             I wish more non-observant Jews would make comments to this regard...

[muman613]

The majority of Observant Jews who I talk with are on the right side of the Israel issue. I dont know a single Orthodox Jew who doesn't work for a strong Israel. I think that the most Orthodox Jews are with us on this Israel issue, it is the racism and fear of extremism which keeps them away from JTF.

[Muck DeFuslims]

The majority of Observant Jews who I talk with are on the right side of the Israel issue. I dont know a single Orthodox Jew who doesn't work for a strong Israel. I think that the most Orthodox Jews are with us on this Israel issue, it is the racism and fear of extremism which keeps them away from JTF.

Yes, the fear of being branded a racist or extremist might keep them away from JTF, but that's not the real issue being discussed here. The question is - what keeps them from moving to Israel ?

I'm sure it's pretty much the same things that keep secular Zionists from making aliyah, minus the obvious religious motivations.

But I do agree with your observation that religious and Orthodox Jews are far more likely to be right-wing and supportive of a strong Israel.

[muman613]

The majority of Observant Jews who I talk with are on the right side of the Israel issue. I dont know a single Orthodox Jew who doesn't work for a strong Israel. I think that the most Orthodox Jews are with us on this Israel issue, it is the racism and fear of extremism which keeps them away from JTF.

Yes, the fear of being branded a racist or extremist might keep them away from JTF, but that's not the real issue being discussed here. The question is - what keeps them from moving to Israel ?

I'm sure it's pretty much the same things that keep secular Zionists from making aliyah, minus the obvious religious motivations.

But I do agree with your observation that religious and Orthodox Jews are far more likely to be right-wing and supportive of a strong Israel.

I know my favorite Rabbi has many family members living in Eretz Yisroel right now. He goes there to visit several times a year. I can only say that my circumstance is difficult because my parents only have me left, after my brother died in the WTC. My brother would have supported my parents into their retirement. My parents are in their late 60s early 70s and they are still hustling to make money. They live pretty well only because of some good investments of my step-dad. Once my parents are no longer in the picture then I will start making my aliyah plans. I have already looked at real estate websites in Israel {who advertise on a7} and really think I would fit in in the wonderful city of Tzfat in North Israel. Many Breslovers live in Tzfat and I think we would be welcomed there.

I constantly talk about the imperative for Jews to live in Israel. I don't know how observant Jews can escape the desire because zionism is integral to Jewish prayer, at least in my Artscroll Siddur. So much of our davening involves the ideas of ingathering Jews from the four corners of the world, and establish the Holy Temple to resume our service, and allow Hashems shechina to rest on the Beit HaMikdash.

I study Torah most days 2-3 hours. There are many resources on the Internet to learn from many wise Rabbis the Jewish understanding of nature and our mission in this world. I would like all the blessings to come to us, so that we can reflect the light of Hashem which he has granted us. I am working on a thesis which should affect many Jewish souls but have only started. I found this from www.torah.org which reflects some of the ideas which I will use.

http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5755/shlach.html
Near Sightedness & Far Sightedness Characterize Beginning & End of Parasha

In the beginning of this week's Parasha the Torah relates the story of the Meraglim. We all know that they came back with a very poor report and as a result of that incident Klal Yisroel spent 40 years in the Wilderness. The end of our Parasha concludes with the mitzvah of Tzitzis. If we look carefully at the Torah's language, we may find it striking that the Torah uses almost the exact same language in these two sections. In connection with the spies the instruction was given "U'Reisem es haAretz" (and you shall look at the Land) and in connection with the Tzizis it says also "U'Reisem oso" (and you shall look at the Tzitzis).

I think that the Torah is trying to tell us that there is a connection between the "U'Reisem oso" of Parashat Tzitzis and the "U'Reisem es haAretz" of Parasha Meraglim: The spies failed to learn the message of Parashat Tzitzis.

What is the message of Parashat Tzitzis? The Gemara in Menochos (quoted by the Ramba"n on this week's portion) explains the Torah's linkage between looking at the Tzitzis and "remembering all the commandments of Hashem" (as indicated by the verses) as follows: The Tzizis contains within it the Techeles, the blue thread. The Techeles resembles the Sea, the Sea looks like the Sky, the Sky reminds you of the Kisseh haKavod (the Divine Throne), and the Kisseh haKavod reminds you of all the commandments of Hashem.

Thus we see from Tzitzis that a human being is capable of seeing much more than meets the eye -- he can see a simple thread of blue, and trace that symbolism to the Sea and to the Sky and to the Heavenly Throne and to all the commandments of the L-rd.

The spies were told to see the Land, but what did they see? They only saw that which was in front of their noses -- they saw big people, they saw giants, and they saw a land that was intimidating and scary. Did they see that Eretz Yisroel is the "Chariot" for G-d's Divine Presence? Did they see the holiness of the Land. No. They were myopic. They were near-sighted in what they were able to view.

This is what Chaza"l are trying to tell us A human being is capable of so much... seeing implications, seeing ramfications, seeing results...if only he will look. But, as the expression goes, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

Why did the spies refuse to see? Because they had a "negius"(selfish-motivation). Chaza"l tell us they were each leaders. They each had positions of honor in the community. They were afraid that if they went into the Land of Israel, they would lose their positions of honor and leadership.When a person has a "negius" that perhaps he will have some loss of honor, he cannot see... he refuses to see.

This is the lesson of Parashat Tzitzis: We are capable of seeing very very far, but only if we open up our eyes and be honest enough to see things as they really are.

We read Parasha Shelach next Shabbat. I think it is incredible that just about every week this last month I have thought of mitzvahs and the Parasha the mitzvah is in is in that weeks Parasha. {i.e. Sotah in Nasso}

[Spectator]

I have already looked at real estate websites in Israel {who advertise on a7} and really think I would fit in in the wonderful city of Tzfat in North Israel. Many Breslovers live in Tzfat and I think we would be welcomed there.

Tzfat is indeed a great place, it's one of the four holy cities in Judaism (together with Jerusalem, Hebron and Tiberias). In medieval times it was the center of Kabbalah wisdom and today it is still immersed in spirituality.

Breslavers in Tzfat:
http://www.kol-simcha.co.il/uploadfiles/surf_images/a1075/a1.jpg


http://www.nayadim.co.il/zimimages/55455.jpg


http://www.motke.co.il/UploadFiles/ArticlesPics/Article_1277_Pic_5.jpg


The only problem Tzfat is its distance from main business and industry centers (the closest is Haifa), so you'll probable have to work outside the town. On the other hand, that is the reason why the real estate prices there are still low. 

In general, real estate in Israel is very expensive, especially in Jerusalem and Greater Tel-Aviv. For example, a second-hand 3-room apartment in the outskirts of Jerusalem costs about $200.000, and the prices are constantly rising. Old people in my neighborhood say that before 20-25 years the prices were 10 times lower.

[Spectator]

MSCI ups Israel to developed mkt

http://in.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idINIndia-40355220090615

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Index compiler MSCI announced on Monday it will upgrade the status of Israel to developed from emerging market, and that it is studying to do the same for South Korea and Taiwan.

The United Arab Emirates and Qatar, currently considered frontier markets, will remain under review for a possible upgrade to emerging markets, MSCI said in a statement.

Israel's upgrade will take place in May, 2010, when the MSCI Israel Index will be included in the MSCI World Index and in the MSCI EAFE Index.

The reclassification of Israel, which was already expected by analysts, will likely draw more investors into the country's equity markets, since many are only allowed to invest in developed markets.

The other potential upgrades will be decided in June, 2010, after a one-year review process.

South Korea, which many analysts expected to be raised to developed markets along with Israel, will need to make "significant process" before an upgrade, MSCI said.

The main problems facing the South Korean market is the lack of full convertibility of the won, the rigidity of the identification system, and anti-competitive practices, MSCI said.

[Muck DeFuslims]

I have already looked at real estate websites in Israel {who advertise on a7} and really think I would fit in in the wonderful city of Tzfat in North Israel. Many Breslovers live in Tzfat and I think we would be welcomed there.

Tzfat is indeed a great place, it's one of the four holy cities in Judaism (together with Jerusalem, Hebron and Tiberias). In medieval times it was the center of Kabbalah wisdom and today it is still immersed in spirituality.

The only problem Tzfat is its distance from main business and industry centers (the closest is Haifa), so you'll probable have to work outside the town. On the other hand, that is the reason why the real estate prices there are still low. 

In general, real estate in Israel is very expensive, especially in Jerusalem and Greater Tel-Aviv. For example, a second-hand 3-room apartment in the outskirts of Jerusalem costs about $200.000, and the prices are constantly rising. Old people in my neighborhood say that before 20-25 years the prices were 10 times lower.

If I ever do make aliyah, I'm strongly considering the Golan Heights. The climate there seems more amenable to my tastes. I like the idea of relatively cool summers and it appears to be more green than other areas of Israel. Additionally, prices are low there in comparison to more developed urban areas.

[Spectator]

I have already looked at real estate websites in Israel {who advertise on a7} and really think I would fit in in the wonderful city of Tzfat in North Israel. Many Breslovers live in Tzfat and I think we would be welcomed there.

Tzfat is indeed a great place, it's one of the four holy cities in Judaism (together with Jerusalem, Hebron and Tiberias). In medieval times it was the center of Kabbalah wisdom and today it is still immersed in spirituality.

The only problem Tzfat is its distance from main business and industry centers (the closest is Haifa), so you'll probable have to work outside the town. On the other hand, that is the reason why the real estate prices there are still low. 

In general, real estate in Israel is very expensive, especially in Jerusalem and Greater Tel-Aviv. For example, a second-hand 3-room apartment in the outskirts of Jerusalem costs about $200.000, and the prices are constantly rising. Old people in my neighborhood say that before 20-25 years the prices were 10 times lower.

If I ever do make aliyah, I'm strongly considering the Golan Heights. The climate there seems more amenable to my tastes. I like the idea of relatively cool summers and it appears to be more green than other areas of Israel. Additionally, prices are low there in comparison to more developed urban areas.

Yes, Golan Heights are wonderful!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Brechat_ram_mt_hermon.JPG


http://www.photolight.co.il/photo/2007-09-24/110376.jpg


http://www.eilat.org.il/SCHOOLS/ALON/albom2009/tiulyb2009/IMG_0679.jpg

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Well, it's their right to go where they please. Unfortunately the Israeli regime is not much better than Barack Hussein Obama. You aren't allowed to own a gun, express your views, or anything. Honestly I can't blame Jews who don't want to live in the Holy Land (not that any galut governments are an improvement).

I agree with you, I don't think it is fair that anyone of a different religion or race is allowed to go anywhere in the World while Jews are expected to live in Israel only.
 

G-d disagrees with you.   He commands the Jewish people as a mitzvah to make aliyah (go to Israel and conquer it/settle the land).   It is preferred over any other land in the world.   That being said it is not an actual prohibition to live elsewhere.  

What you are saying is true in the sense that if goyim made it illegal for a Jew to live somewhere that would be "unfair," but certainly it is not "unfair" of G-d to give to the Jewish nation a certain land in which to establish their culture of Torah and serving G-d, and to command the Jewish people to go and live there, to have an attachment to that particular land over all others, or else such nation cannot exist in its purest form.   There is no nation without a land to establish it in.  This is clear.  

                                                                                                                                                                           בס''ד

You are mistaken. It is a very serious sin to live in the cursed galut (exile) - which means living in any land outside of Israel.

"כל הדר בארץ ישראל - דומה כמי שיש לו אלוה, וכל הדר בחוצה לארץ - דומה כמי שאין לו אלוה"
(מסכת כתובות, הגמרא)

Translation: "Anyone who lives in the land of Israel is like someone who has a G-d, and anyone who lives outside of the land is like someone who has no G-d" (Masechet Ketuvot, HaGamara)

What you have said is true except where you said I am mistaken.   It is not assur to live in other lands (except Egypt according to Rambam at least).  While it is a curse (as I stated above, the galuth is certainly a curse), you are not over an a negative commandment.   You are over on not fulfilling a positive commandment.  You can argue that it is just as bad, but there is a difference.   When you say is it ok to break Shabbat?  Of course not, but that is different.  That is violating a negative commandment (don't do melacha, etc).   Not making aliyah would be more akin to not putting on tefillin, or not eating korban pesach.   Is it a foundational positive mitzvah to the extent that some authorities describe it as equal to all the others?   Certainly.   But technically speaking I don't think one is over on a "lav" (although perhaps if you know of any off the top of your head you can bring a source against me - I am certainly open to that possibility that maybe I'm wrong, but the understanding I have described is definitely how this issue is brought down in the Rambam).

You cannot be a Torah-true Jew outside of Israel because many of the 613 Torah commandments apply only to the land of Israel. Therefore, in the cursed galut, you are living in a land where it is impossible to truly observe the Torah.

This is certainly true, and I tried to make this very point in what I said above!

Also, I would add that barring any excusable halachic reasons (ie, caring for an elderly parent, etc) MOST Jews of today have absolutely no excuse for not going to Israel because it is more than possible.   They even give you a gift basket.  Imagine the trek of the Yemenites through desert on foot and by camel, nearly starving to death, they never got any nefesh bnefesh care package, they were lucky if they got a tent to live in.   And all one has to do today is hop on an el al flight and they give you a gift basket with govt benefits!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

To elaborate on how Orthodox Jews have been convinced by their Orthodox rabbis that "zionist" philosophy is heretical and poisonous.   Just because many of the leaders of the state and forerunners of the original movements were secular Jews with nationalistic feelings but often not Torah background and some were against the religious or tried to even root them out, it has been incorporated into modern day haredi/Orthodox ideology to be "against" zionism - as if those self-hating destructive elements are equivalent to everything else the zionists did.  In other words, rather than acknowledge they did some good and some bad, they've been made into a boogey man and so all the good things the zionists did are considered somehow also bad.  Thus the really "frum" of the orthodox Jews don't even consider the possibility of aliyah and likely look forward to their SUV's and their comfortable sunday afternoons like all other Americans.   Why would they consider the self-sacrifice involved in serving in an army and/or living in a less affluent society for the sake of something they've been convinced is a negative and/or sinful belief system?

And the modern orthodox usually are more zionistic but even the forerunner of their movement in the US, Rav Joseph Ber Soloveitchik ZT"L did not have zionistic tendencies.   They also defer largely to the 'ultra orthodox' poskim as authoritative in any area other than the subject of integrating with the modern world.  And so as is the tendency in the haredi world, many people today will fossilize the opinions and experiences of certain leaders in certain times and certain areas and make them into a modern day philosophy long after that authority's reality on the ground has changed completely.

The fact is that certain Torah principles were utilized in the philosophy of the zionist movement, whether consciously, unconsciously, or a mixture of both.  They are contained within the overall framework known as zionism.   Thus, Theodore Hertzl did not invent the idea of settling the land of Israel.  It is brought down by many major rishonim as one of the 613 mitzvot of the Torah including Rambam and Ramban to name a few.  David Ben Gurion did not dream up Jewish nationalism one day while plowing a field.  All our bubbies and zaydies (grandmothers and grandfathers) had the spark of Jewish nationalism within them that other posters in this thread have described.  And furthermore our ancestors also prayed for the Jewish people's return to the land of Israel 3 times a day for 2000 years.   But now suddenly these foundational Torah concepts have been lumped together under a branch called "zionism" which  -with their corrupted ideologies inherited from recent generations - Orthodox rabbis define as a theological straw-man enemy.  Because the same zionists also wanted to create the secular socialist Hebrew speaking gentile as the new Jewish identity, in the eyes of some people this somehow negates any positive in the fact that they also wanted Jews to join together and reconstitute nationhood.  (Even tho we still believe in the same halacha, and we still say the same prayers even today)   So somehow they've managed to make our own religion our theological enemy.

Part of the origin of this is that religious authorities in the pre-state and early days of the state such as the Chazon Ish had good reason to be wary of the zionist traitors (social, labor zionists) of Mapai and Mapam who took over and founded the state (ie ben gurion et al).  Just look what they did to the Sefardim.   And so he was very wary of them.  But people today pretend as if it is still 1950.   And that is ludicrous.   The Chazon Ish ZT"L passed away in the 1950's.  The demographics are completely different, the religious involvement with the state has changed, the ability to lead a kosher life, etc etc... even religious political power.  And furthermore, if more Orthodox Jews from Europe had come sooner when the majority of rabbis and rebbes were against settling the land of Israel, well before WW2, those dangers (in early statehood) for the religious sector wouldn't have been so great, and the political power would have at least been more balanced, or denied completely to the traitors.   There's no reason to make the Chazon Ish's practical interactions with the early statehood of his day and time into a modern day religious theology.  And yet many people have.  

And the aguda position of sitting on the fence ("Non zionist" rather than antizionist) is logically untenable, so most religious people have 2 options, either they see the light and lean more towards Rav Kook's approach, or they lean toward the Satmar and have an innate hostility to anything nationalistic - seen naturally as the "more frum" or more machmir (strict) position/philosophy to hold.   These are the fruits of a corrupt ideological barrier to intellectually honest inquiry embodied by "antizionist fervor."

[Dr. Dan]

I"m a right wing Jew who still live in the US..and I will only speak for myself

A. I don't know how to speak Hebrew.
B. My whole family and life is here.  For this type of idealism, I'm not bound to leave everything.

Does this mean I'll never move? No.  Does it mean i disagree with this idealism? No.  Does it mean I won't teach my grandchildren this idealism? No.  It simply means that, now is not the time for me or my family to go there...

[Moshe92]

Muman, have you heard of Reb Moshe from Tzfat? He's very famous on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ilovetorah

[muman613]

Muman, have you heard of Reb Moshe from Tzfat? He's very famous on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ilovetorah

Of course... I have personally corresponded with Reb Moshe a couple of times...

I have called him my brother.

[Moshe92]

Cool. Here's his website.

http://www.ilovetorah.com/

[Spectator]

Hi guys,

Thank you for your great replies.

By posting that topic I by no means didn't imply we Israelis are complaining that American Jews are not coming to Israel. Every normal man understands that moving to another country is a bit more complex thing than going for a walk.

We are all brethren!

I just believe time will come and we all meet in Jerusalem to see the final redemption and restoration of G-d's Temple.

Long live Land of Israel!

Long live united Jerusalem, G-d's city and the eternal capital of the Jewish people!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I know my favorite Rabbi has many family members living in Eretz Yisroel right now. He goes there to visit several times a year. I can only say that my circumstance is difficult because my parents only have me left, after my brother died in the WTC. My brother would have supported my parents into their retirement. My parents are in their late 60s early 70s and they are still hustling to make money. They live pretty well only because of some good investments of my step-dad. Once my parents are no longer in the picture then I will start making my aliyah plans. I have already looked at real estate websites in Israel {who advertise on a7} and really think I would fit in in the wonderful city of Tzfat in North Israel. Many Breslovers live in Tzfat and I think we would be welcomed there.

Kol Hakavod!