Ari Shavit, Netanyahu & Obama as Messiah?

[Ulli]

Ari Shavit wrote yesterday in a comment for Haaretz "The heir of Sharon", basically, that if Obama would accept the two conditions for peace talks of Netanyahu, that he will be an eternal Prince of Peace.

Does this mean, that Obama is then accepted as Messiah by the Jews?

The conditions are:

1. The Quranimals have to accept Israel, or what is left over then, as a Jewish state.

2. The new founded "Palestinian" state should be demilitarized.


He writes:

Should Obama refuse the acceptance, we all will know, that a president stands in front of us, who is not bound to the existence of the state of Israel.

And if Obama accepts both axioms and he gives Israel an international guarantee for peace, he will be an eternal Prince of Peace.

The original Text in German from Hagalil is:

Und wenn Obama die beiden Grundsätze akzeptiert und Israel eine internationale Bürgschaft für den Frieden zukommen lässt, wird er ein ewiger Friedensfürst sein.

Source: http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/2009/06/15/erbe-sharons/

[muman613]

Are you kidding?

Obama is not Moshiach.. How about the House of David? How about the ingathering of exiles? There are many things which Obama has not done, nor can he do.

No religious Jew will ever accept this as Moshiach. That is a sick joke...

Also who said Moshiach was a 'Prince of Peace'... This is not a Jewish name for Moshiach. What happens according to Jewish belief is that Moshiach will bring war against the evil nations and after evil is removed from this world, then the era of peace and prosperity will begin. Without the removal of the evil, this is no messianic age...


From Chabad:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/653896/jewish/What-is-the-Jewish-Belief-About-Moshiach.htm

What are the birthpangs of Mashiach’s arrival?

The Talmud describes the period immediately prior to the advent of Mashiach as one of great travail and turmoil. There will be a world recession and governments will be controlled by despots. It is in this troubled setting that Mashiach will arrive.

There is a tradition that a great war will take place, called the war of Gog and Magog, and there is much speculation as to the precise timing of this war in relation to Mashiach’s arrival.

There is a tradition that Elijah the prophet will come to the world and announce the imminent arrival of Mashiach. However, according to other opinions, Mashiach may arrive unannounced. Elijah would then arrive to assist in the peace process. Some suggest that if the Mashiach arrives in his predestined time then Elijah will announce his arrival, but if Mashiach comes suddenly then Elijah will appear after Mashiach has come.

As mentioned before, it is unclear as to exactly how these events will unfold. However, this uncertainty does not affect the general matter of Mashiach’s arrival.

When will the resurrection of the dead take place?

One of the principles of Jewish faith is belief in the resurrection of the dead. According to the Zohar – an early Kabbalistic text – the resurrection will take place forty years after the arrival of Mashiach. However, certain righteous individuals will arise with the coming of Mashiach. All the dead will be resurrected in the Land of Israel.

There is a small bone in the body called the Luz bone (some identify this bone as the coccyx) from which the body will be rebuilt at the time of resurrection. Our daily prayers are replete with requests for the resurrection and there are many customs connected with it. (See the book To Live and Live Again – SIE Publications)

[Ulli]

Are you kidding?

Obama is not Moshiach.. How about the House of David? How about the ingathering of exiles? There are many things which Obama has not done, nor can he do.

No religious Jew will ever accept this as Moshiach. That is a sick joke...

Also who said Moshiach was a 'Prince of Peace'... This is not a Jewish name for Moshiach.

Jesaja 9 (KJV)

1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. 2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. 5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. 8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel. 9 And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart, 10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars. 11 Therefore the LORD shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together; 12 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. 13 For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. 14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day. 15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail. 16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed. 17 Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. 18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke. 19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother. 20 And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm: 21 Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

[Rubystars]

[Ulli]

Shavit adds to Prince of peace the word eternal. Together this is imo with high likelihood meant in a religious way. Eternal is one of G-d's attributes. Perhaps Shavit is influenced by Christian theology. I knew instantly what he meant. But could be Jews have another reception of this. For me as Christian it is clear.

P.S.: In the Jesaja text abouve is the word everlasting - eternal too.

[muman613]

Are you kidding?

Obama is not Moshiach.. How about the House of David? How about the ingathering of exiles? There are many things which Obama has not done, nor can he do.

No religious Jew will ever accept this as Moshiach. That is a sick joke...

Also who said Moshiach was a 'Prince of Peace'... This is not a Jewish name for Moshiach.

Jesaja 9 (KJV)

1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. 2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. 5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty G-d, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. 8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel. 9 And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart, 10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars. 11 Therefore the LORD shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together; 12 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. 13 For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. 14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day. 15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail. 16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed. 17 Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. 18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke. 19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother. 20 And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm: 21 Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

Hi Pheasant,

Very interesting quote there, and obviously from the KJV bible because the translation is a bit odd from the Hebrew standpoint. I looked up the translation which Chabad website gives and the associated commentary from Rashi, a famous Jewish sage who is often quoted for his Torah knowledge.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15940/showrashi/true

5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."         ה.

For a child has been born to us: Although Ahaz is wicked, his son who was born to him many years ago [nine years prior to his assuming the throne] to be our king in his stead, shall be a righteous man, and the authority of the Holy One, blessed be He, and His yoke shall be on his shoulder, for he shall engage in the Torah and observe the commandments, and he shall bend his shoulder to bear the burden of the Holy One, blessed be He.

and… called his name: The Holy One, blessed be He, Who gives wondrous counsel, is a mighty God and an everlasting Father, called Hezekiah’s name, “the prince of peace,” since peace and truth will be in his days.

6. To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.         ו.

To him who increased the authority: To whom will He call this name? To the king who increases the authority of the Holy One, blessed be He, upon himself, to fear Him.

authority: an expression of government. [This is to refute those who disagree with us [the Christians]. But it is possible to say that “Prince of Peace,” too, is one of the names of the Holy One, blessed be He, and this calling of a name is not actually a name but an expression of (var. for the purpose of) greatness and authority. Comp. (Ruth 4:11) “And be famous (וּקְרָא שֵׁם) in Bethlehem. Also (II Sam. 7:9, I Chron. 17:8): ” And I shall make for you a name.“ Here too, Scripture means, ” And He gave him a name and authority."]

and for peace: which is given to him, there will be no end, for he had peace on all his sides, and this “end” is not an expression of an end to eternity, but there will be no boundaries. On the throne of the kingdom of David shall this peace be justice and righteousness that Hezekiah performed.

and for peace: Heb. וּלְשָׁלוֹם. This ‘vav’ is to rectify the word, thus: He [Hezekiah] increased the authority upon his shoulder, and what reward will He [God] pay him? Behold, his peace shall have no end or any limit.

from now and to eternity: The eternity of Hezekiah, viz. all his days. And so we find that Hannah said concerning Samuel (I Sam. 1:22): “and abide there forever.” And, in order to refute those who disagree [i.e., the Christians, who claim that this (Prince of Peace) is their deity], we can refute them [by asking], What is the meaning of: “from now” ? Is it not so that the “deity” did not come until after five hundred years and more?

the zeal of the Lord of Hosts: Who was zealous for Zion concerning what Aram and Pekah planned about it.

shall accomplish this: but Ahaz does not deserve it, moreover, the merit of the Patriarchs has terminated. [Addendum: And our Rabbis said: The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to make Hezekiah the Messiah and Sennacherib, Gog and Magog. Said the ministering angels before the Holy One, blessed be He, Should the one who stripped the doors of the Temple and sent them to the king of Assyria, be made Messiah? Immediately, Scripture closed it up.

I do not profess to understand other interpretations so maybe there are others...

[Ulli]

Thank you Muman.

I understand now the Jewish point of view. Seems to be Shavit really uses Christian thoughts and projects it on Obama.

[muman613]

Thank you Muman.

I understand now the Jewish point of view. Seems to be Shavit really uses Christian thoughts and projects it on Obama.

It is Ok... I hope that what I have said is interesting and relevant. I really get tired of people who paint Obama as if he is the 'Jewish Moshiach". Maybe he is another cultures messiah, but not mine...

[syyuge]

Something reverse may be more plausible.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

There are times that I think Jews are so completely nuts that they are beyond help and hope, and that I am wasting my time getting worked-up over world events. But the majority of Christians are just as insane too.

[AsheDina]

Thank you Muman.

I understand now the Jewish point of view. Seems to be Shavit really uses Christian thoughts and projects it on Obama.

It is Ok... I hope that what I have said is interesting and relevant. I really get tired of people who paint Obama as if he is the 'Jewish Moshiach". Maybe he is another cultures messiah, but not mine...

IF there is ANY Jewish person that actually believes that the Messiah will come and bring 'peace', they are nuts.  Messiah will come to DESTROY ALL EVIL.
IF there is ANY Christian as well, that believes that the Messiah is some WIMP, you are NUTS.

[AsheDina]

Sorry, I am not meaning to be nasty, but Messiah is KING. He is not going to TOLLLLLLLLLERATEEEEEEEEEEEE this wicked, EVIL place, and, personally, I CANT WAIT until he comes and DESTROYS this EVIL.

[cjd]

Thank you Muman.

I understand now the Jewish point of view. Seems to be Shavit really uses Christian thoughts and projects it on Obama.

It is Ok... I hope that what I have said is interesting and relevant. I really get tired of people who paint Obama as if he is the 'Jewish Moshiach". Maybe he is another cultures messiah, but not mine...

I don't claim to know a great deal  about Jewish, Christian, or any other sort of Moshiach however I know enough to tell that the filthy niggeraa in the White House would not make a good washroom attendant let alone Moshiach. If people have become this crazy to think anything like that could be the Moshiach we really have lost any prospective on what good and evil really are. People here in America and in Israel had better shape up fast.... I am a strong believer that G-d helps them that help themselves. America is rapidly digging its grave due to many issues however Israel is not exactly doing everything it should to secure its wellbeing. In the end G-d insures Israels survival however the road getting there could be a long rough ride if the right things are not done correctly during the interim.