Sabras: "like dogs returning to their vomit!"

[galileerat]

That former IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz says that he would repeat exactly the same erroneous tactcs he did in 2006 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1099521.html merely confirms what Rav Kahane used to say that "the very definition of an Israeli (ie a person physically born in the Medinat Yisrael after 1948) is that he cannot be reached!".

And that includes ALL Sabras almost without exception: left wing, right wing, centrist, chilloni, smollani, yemini, Haredi, kippah seruga, Arabs, goyim even l'havdil Kahanists!

Shame to tell, but we should make a special brachah to Hashem that we weren't born in Israel, because the Talmudic principle that "The air of Eretz Yisrael makes one wise" obviously does not apply in this generation!



"In Israel, stupidity takes on extraterrestrial proportions!" (Prof Paul Eidelberg).

[Spectator]

Shame to tell, but we should make a special brachah to Hashem that we weren't born in Israel, because the Talmudic principle that "The air of Eretz Yisrael makes one wise" obviously does not apply in this generation!

Your attitude reminds me that of Satmar Chassidim. While there is some truth in what you say, the way you offer to confront the problem is way worse than the problem itself. In Israel, most Jews and their children at least have a good chance to remain Jewish, while the Diaspora is doomed to spiritual, national, and maybe physical, death.

Instead of bashing Israel, make aliyah and change it to the better!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

because the Talmudic principle that "The air of Eretz Yisrael makes one wise" obviously does not apply in this generation!

Right because you really have the wisdom to be able to tell us whether a Talmudic dictum applies today or not
**rolling eyes......

The biggest disgrace of all is that you call yourself "kahanist" and claim to be speaking in the name of Rabbi Kahane and at the same time say it's a "blessing" to be in the curse of galut, to be born there and as you imply from your posts to live there   Chas veshalom.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I strongly suspect that this poster is the banned splinter-member Mitflezet.

[galileerat]

I made aliyah 15 years ago. B"H I have resisted becoming "sabrified". Most Anglo-Americans, Argentinians, Russians, Ethiopians don't, and they or their progeny quickly absorb, rachmonus aleihem, the worst of Sabra Israeli character traits and thought processes: "Eretz Yisrael was only given in order that the Jews should purify it of the Seven Bad Character Traits that saturate it from the original Seven Canaanite Nations that derive from the Olam HaTohu" (Arizal).

Israel needs a massive overwhelming influx in one go of Anglo-Americans, so that they can change Israel for the better, rather than vice versa for the worse!

Your attitude reminds me that of Satmar Chassidim...
 While there is some truth in what you say......Instead of bashing Israel, make aliyah and change it to the better!

If R.Kahane, BZK, Chaim, Mike, Lenny, Marzel etc had been born in Israel, there would not have been Kahanism. I don't believe that in this generation anyone born in Israel, even the best, can become an uncompromisable  "Kahanist". And to quote the Satmar Rebbe who you mention "'The air of Eretz Yisrael makes one cleverer' (Bava Basra 158) - but remember that there the yetzer hara is also cleverer"!

[muman613]

I will never speak so disrespectfully of the Jewish people, and the land of Israel.

Do you not read our Holy Torah? Or are you too a scoffer who has no faith that the words, and the spirit, which Hashem granted the Children of Israel are truth?

I remember the story of the spies who scouted the land and returned a sad report. You do know we just started the period known as the three weeks. I myself have cried each night about the sad state of affairs which result in the lack of the Shechina in the world. You do know that Hashems existence in this world is muted because of the acts of our people. It is so sad and upsetting that I feel so many emotions when I read these bad reports.

There are times when I feel at wits end about the Israelis and the leftists and the arabs. But I have, deep down, strong emmunah and even trust that the words of the prophets will be heard, and all Israel will inhabit the land of our righteous patriarchs. Do not forget that we read in Exodus that those who stood at the mountain and HEARD the voice of Hashem had fallen to the 49th level of impurity and almost did not merit redemption.

I suggest everyone who reads these words to reflect on what teshuva can be done individually, and what tikkun can be done as a people. Israel is undefeatable when we work with Hashem and make his will our will. The air of Israel is indeed special and brings a unique wisdom but the people need to be receptive to the air. I hope to breath this unique air soon.

[Spectator]

I made aliyah 15 years ago. B"H I have resisted becoming "sabrified". Most Anglo-Americans, Argentinians, Russians, Ethiopians don't, and they or their progeny quickly absorb, rachmonus aleihem, the worst of Sabra Israeli character traits and thought processes: "Eretz Yisrael was only given in order that the Jews should purify it of the Seven Bad Character Traits that saturate it from the original Seven Canaanite Nations that derive from the Olam HaTohu" (Arizal).

Israel needs a massive overwhelming influx in one go of Anglo-Americans, so that they can change Israel for the better, rather than vice versa for the worse!

Your attitude reminds me that of Satmar Chassidim...
 While there is some truth in what you say......Instead of bashing Israel, make aliyah and change it to the better!

If R.Kahane, BZK, Chaim, Mike, Lenny, Marzel etc had been born in Israel, there would not have been Kahanism. I don't believe that in this generation anyone born in Israel, even the best, can become an uncompromisable  "Kahanist". And to quote the Satmar Rebbe who you mention "'The air of Eretz Yisrael makes one cleverer' (Bava Basra 158) - but remember that there the yetzer hara is also cleverer"!

It's great that you made aliya. So did I 9 years ago.

It is true that Eretz Israel magnifies the power of yetzer hara. Also, the Holy Land has so great potential and if it is misused (if Jews don't live according to the G-d's will), it is the great desecration of His Name. It is as if to uprise against the king in its palace.

But it doesn't mean we should not go to the Land of Israel. We should live there and do our best to change it for the better. And we should start the change from ourselves.

It is true that Israeli secular culture is anti-Torah, leftist and primitive. But not all Israelis are brainwashed with it.
The are also very positive facts about Israel, in my mind the most important are:

1. The relative majority of the Jews live here (about 41%), and
2. With all due respect to American yeshivas and rabbis, the center of Torah study is definetely in Israel today. Most yeshivas and Torah sages are here! So are the most poskim (great rabbis who are authorized to issue Halachic decrees), both Ashkenazi and Sepharadi.

Most Anglo-Americans, Argentinians, Russians, Ethiopians who don't become "sabricized" (adopt Israeli culture), do it because of banal nostalgia. Russians are longing for "great Russian culture", Ethiopians for "natural products", etc. All these things have nothing to do with Judaism. If these people continued to live in their countries of origin, they would have assimilated altogether. There is nothing to be proud of. I am a Russian-speaking Jew and I know what I am talking about.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Mitflezet, if you hate your own land and people so much, why don't you just move to Yemen or Iran and convert to Shiite Islam?

[Lisa]

Galileerat, is there anything at all you LIKE about Israel?

[galileerat]

Eretz Yisrael I love. But Medinat Yisrael (which is not synonymous) - for all it's plus points - has a fatal pegam in it deriving from the 1948 Declaration of Independence -  a date which had Messianic potential, but which the Satan hijacked.

This pegam is so deep and so antithetical to True Torah (of which Kahanism is one aspect), and has made most of its indigens so inimically unreconstructable, that Professor Paul Eidelberg www.foundation1.org states: "For the People of Israel to survive, the State of Israel may have to be destroyed!". Let's hope he means "only" it as an institution, and not its infrastructure!

Mitflezet, if you hate your own land and people so much, why don't you just move to Yemen or Iran and convert to Shiite Islam?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What a loser.

[Spectator]

Eretz Yisrael I love. But Medinat Yisrael (which is not synonymous) - for all it's plus points - has a fatal pegam in it deriving from the 1948 Declaration of Independence -  a date which had Messianic potential, but which the Satan hijacked.

What "fatal pegam(flaw)" are you talking about? All the flaws Medinat Yisrael (the State of Israel) has can be repaired. Our task is to bring Medinat Yisrael in line with the guidelines of Torah. And that is constantly being done. The state is much more religious than it used to be 20-30 years ago. Hundreds of thousands secular Israelis returned to their Father in Heaven, plus the higher birthrate of religious Jews changed the face of Israeli society. This process is well underway.

On the other hand,  it is obvious that the destruction of the state will bring a new Holocaust on the Jews, rachmana litzlan.

[Spectator]

This pegam is so deep and so antithetical to True Torah (of which Kahanism is one aspect), and has made most of its indigens so inimically unreconstructable, that Professor Paul Eidelberg www.foundation1.org states: "For the People of Israel to survive, the State of Israel may have to be destroyed!".

You take the words of Professor Eidelberg out of context. He is a great patriot of the State. He speaks about the destruction of the corrupt political system, not the state itself.

But don't be alarmed or alienated by my cynicism.  Since Israel is for the taking, it presents a marvelous opportunity to people with intellectual venture capital and ambition!  A full-scale, unambiguous war is going to break out as Hamas and Fatah acquire more and deadlier weapons.  Hence, let me address some stouthearted Jews: Prepare a shadow government for that revolutionary moment.  You can replace Israel's decadent leadership and its equally decrepit opposition parties.  You can liberate Israel from the illusion of making peace with Arab thugs.  You can rejuvenate the IDF and destroy Israel's enemies, who have so long afflicted the Jewish people.  Employ overwhelming and even disproportionate force so that these disciples of Muhammad will never again raise their scornful heads.
   
You can establish a new form of government.  Terminate Israel's multiparty thiefdom.  Empower the people, so that their sacred beliefs and values may again provide the foundation for pubic law and foreign policy. 
   
With the enemy vanquished, and the government cleansed of its political cesspool, no longer will Israel be enthralled by the United States .  At last, Israel , the G-d-bearing nation, will come into its own-free!

http://www.freeman.org/MOL/pages/august2008/israel-from-war-and-servitude-to-freedom.php

You don't need to burn the house to get rid of the rats. Do not go out of the proportion.

[Spectator]

Galileerat, your error is that you are stuck in 1948. The present is much more important. And today no Posek, no Gdol HaDor advocates the destruction of the State. On the contrary, the religious parties strive to keep the state stable and to block all the attempts to implode it from within (the attempts of leftists to undermine its Jewish character).

[galileerat]

Israel's Declaration of Independence even starts with a falsehood: "The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish People”. 

Yet the Children of Israel were called a “people” as well as a “nation” already before the Exodus. To compound that falsehood, the document goes on to say that in the Land of Israel “they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books”.

To say that the Jews "created" is tacitly to deny the Sinaitic Revelation and Divine origin of the Torah.
 
It does not even mention the Name of G-d or refer to the Creator, the only founding document of any nation outside of the former atheistic Communist nations. Thus it fails on even the most minimal level the very purpose of the People of Israel: "This people I have created for Me that they may relate My praise" (Yeshaya 43). It is said that had the Name of Hashem Elokim Elokei Yisrael been included in it, the Moshiach would have come then and there on 14 May 1948!
 
Indeed the only name mentioned in the document is that of Theodore Herzl, whom it calls "the spiritual father of the Jewish State", even though he was totally unobservant and a disavower of the Torah!
 
The Declaration states that "we are hereby founding a Jewish state", but then contradicts itself by declaring that it will "grant complete equality of political rights to ALL its citizens", thus ensuring that an Arab majority, which ceteris paribus will occur by 2050, some say already by 2025, will be able to democratically vote the State of existence! etc etc

As for the increasing number of haredim and newly Orthodox, don't expect much help from them. Most of them too are opponents of Kahanism: "The haredim are irrelevant!" (R.Kahane 1981)

[Spectator]

Israel's Declaration of Independence even starts with a falsehood: "The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish People”. 

Yet the Children of Israel were called a “people” as well as a “nation” already before the Exodus. To compound that falsehood, the document goes on to say that in the Land of Israel “they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books”.

To say that the Jews "created" is tacitly to deny the Sinaitic Revelation and Divine origin of the Torah.
 
It does not even mention the Name of G-d or refer to the Creator, the only founding document of any nation outside of the former atheistic Communist nations. Thus it fails on even the most minimal level the very purpose of the People of Israel: "This people I have created for Me that they may relate My praise" (Yeshaya 43). It is said that had the Name of Hashem Elokim Elokei Yisrael been included in it, the Moshiach would have come then and there on 14 May 1948!
 
Indeed the only name mentioned in the document is that of Theodore Herzl, whom it calls "the spiritual father of the Jewish State", even though he was totally unobservant and a disavower of the Torah!
 
The Declaration states that "we are hereby founding a Jewish state", but then contradicts itself by declaring that it will "grant complete equality of political rights to ALL its citizens", thus ensuring that an Arab majority, which ceteris paribus will occur by 2050, some say already by 2025, will be able to democratically vote the State of existence! etc etc

Who cares what is written in the declaration? You only proved that most founders of the state were apikorsim (heretics). This fact is evident and no one disputes that. But Hashem turned their evil plans to the good. It is the same as Yosef said to his brothers who sold him to Egypt:

"ואתם חשבתם עלי רעה, אלוקים חשבה לטובה, למען עשה כיום הזה להחיות עם רב" (בראשית נ', כ'
(And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but G-d meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive)
Bereishis 50:20

Today the State of Israel, with all its flaws, saves lives of the half the Jewish people and is the place where thousands Jews, who otherwise would have been lost, return to G-d. At the same time, Diaspora Jews are assimilating at the alarming rate. Even in US about half the Jews are intermarried, let alone Russian and European Jews.

I'll repeat the point you (purposefully?) missing: today no Posek, no Gdol HaDor advocates the destruction of the State. On the contrary, the religious parties strive to keep the state stable and to block all the attempts to implode it from within (the attempts of leftists to undermine its Jewish character).

You only attack the State of Israel but you don't propose any sane alternative (because it is impossible).







 

[galileerat]

R.Kahane proposed either a revolution or a referendum to overthrow the State's institutions and revamp them totally. Would you class him as not being "sane"?

You only attack the State of Israel but you don't propose any sane alternative (because it is impossible).

 
[/quote]

[Spectator]

As for the increasing number of haredim and newly Orthodox, don't expect much help from them. Most of them too are opponents of Kahanism: "The haredim are irrelevant!" (R.Kahane 1981)

This your opus definitely intended to bring strife between various Israeli religious movements. I won't even bother to check if Rabbi Kahane said that and in what context. You have already misquoted Prof. Eidelberg, no need to check your intentions again. In this bein hametzarim  period, we need to practice ahavat hinam (unconditional love), not sin'at hinam (unconditional hatred)

[Spectator]

R.Kahane proposed either a revolution or a referendum to overthrow the State's institutions and revamp them totally. Would you class him as not being "sane"?

You only attack the State of Israel but you don't propose any sane alternative (because it is impossible).

Rabbi Kahane is absolutely sane and righteous. He urged to clean the house from filth, not to destroy it. And why do you write "R.Kahane" ? Can't allow yourself to call him Rabbi?

[galileerat]

The very first thing R.Kahane said he would do if he became PM, even before dealing with any Arab threat, would be to "dismantle" the Histadrut, thereby restoring at one stroke the Jewish National Work Ethic! Is dismantling not the same as "destroying"?

Article by Prof Eidelberg "Must the State Perish for Israel to Survive?"
http://www.foundation1.org/?s=perish
and here on audio
http://wejew.com/media/2395/Must_Israel_Perish_to_Survive_Podcast/

And I have seen it written 10 years ago in a Chabad pamphlet that the Lubavitcher Rebbe said that the physical Knesset building itself is tumah and has to be/will be "destroyed"!

[Yochai]

The answers lie in Revolution of Referendum.

One thing's for sure though, and that is that Rav Kahane, unlike many of the mamlachtim around today, did not worship the golden calf of stately instruments and apparatuses.

The army was always of the utmost importance to him, but beyond that, the Rav thought that much of the Israeli system needed to be destroyed in order to fix the problems.

As for a dismantling of the state, I have met many Chabadnik Kahanists in EY and their opinion is very similar.  They believe that maximum immigration should be facilitated, and that Jews are protected, but do not believe in this secular government that has slowly destroyed this country.  One needs to remember that Eretz Yisrael and Medinat Yisrael are two completely different things.  One need not love one to love the other.  That is a pure mamlachti viewpoint, and one that is rejected by many Kahanists.

As for the religious taking over by having more babies and promoting teshuvah, that will take much longer.  Only 10 percent of Israelis consider themselves Haredi (which are mostly anti-Zionist anyways) and another 10 percent consider themselves religious.  This is not too inspiring in terms of some sort of religious takeover.

[Spectator]

One thing's for sure though, and that is that Rav Kahane, unlike many of the mamlachtim around today, did not worship the golden calf of stately instruments and apparatuses.

The army was always of the utmost importance to him, but beyond that, the Rav thought that much of the Israeli system needed to be destroyed in order to fix the problems.

Very true. Stately institutions are a means, not a goal. If some of them malfunction, they need to be reformed or dismantled, according to the specific situation. And if they are run by traitors who misuse them, we need to do our best to remove the traitors from ruling positions.

But all these reasons have nothing to do with the very concept of Jewish sovereignity over the Land of Israel, which is contested in this thread.

[Spectator]

As for the religious taking over by having more babies and promoting teshuvah, that will take much longer.  Only 10 percent of Israelis consider themselves Haredi (which are mostly anti-Zionist anyways) and another 10 percent consider themselves religious.  This is not too inspiring in terms of some sort of religious takeover.

These methods do not exclude the others. But they are absolutely necessary. Moreover, they both are positive Torah commandments.

[galileerat]

The prophets give various scenarios for the geulah, ranging from, as R.Kahane explained, from a painless geulah coming through Jewish power and glory and victory. To a painful geulah, coming from Jewish disaster, shame and defeat.

One scenario, quoted in the Chesed l'Avraham (R.Avraham Azulai), has there being only 6,000 Jews alive in Eretz Yisrael when the Moshaich appears!

[Spectator]

The prophets give various scenarios for the geulah, ranging from, as R.Kahane explained, from a painless geulah coming through Jewish power and glory and victory. Or a painful geulah, coming from Jewish disaster, shame and defeat.

One scenario, quoted in the Chesed l'Avraham (R.Avraham Azulai), has there being only 6,000 Jews alive in Eretz Yisrael when the Moshaich appears!

All pondering on what will come to pass when the Moshiach appears has only theoretical value. In practice we must perform G-d's commandments, one of which is to live in Eretz Israel.

As Oral Torah says, let us do our share, G-d will do the rest!