Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
What you fail to realize is that Jews were in places like Italy, France, and Germany well before any Khazar King or his conversion or that of his govt ministers. Afterall, how would they have any idea what to CONVERT TO if there were no Jews around anywhere in Europe? LOL. You people operate in a illogic vacuum.
REAL HISTORIANS show that likely there was a mixed population of Jew and gentile in Khazaria (before the famous 3-religion "dispute") who were friendly with each other, and Jews there had more assimilationist tendency, there were also Muslims in Khazaria, but the kingdom bordered the edges of the Moslem and Xtian empires on either side and identified with neither. They decided to turn their kingdom into a modified Jewish state to compete with their neighbors. Yes there was some type of rabbinic dispute/competition as the legend of the Kuzari records and khazarian historical records indicate, but likely the conversion and choice of Judaism was also politically motivated. Many of the people converted, but the Jews didn't need to, obviously. This society interacted with Jews in Egypt and other places, they didn't last very long because of overambition in conquest, and like I said, Jews already existed firmly in other places in Europe before (and after) the rise and fall of the tiny Jewish khazarian empire. (To its credit, the little Khazar kingdom blocked the spread of Islam in Europe!) If many of those who converted did so without sincerity, it is unlikely they kept their newfound faith after the fall and destruction of the khazar empire.
Of course if they converted sincerely, then they are - get this - REAL JEWS! That being said, it is likely that there was sincerity involved as the khazarian documents indicate a real faith, and that they even paid expert Talmudic rabbis to help spread the religion and educate the masses in real Judaism. Where do you think those rabbis came from? LOL
muman613:
I looked at my family tree and it is 100% Jewish going back at least 100+ years {after that we lose track}. My family was established in Jewish communities in Poland and in Ukraine in the 1800s.
Harzel:
Dúnadan, first you must understand that Jews have a long established definition of who is a Jew, as we explained here before. It is based on The female lineage and allows for conversions. In theory, even if most of the Ashkenazi gene pool was Kazar rather than ethnic Hebrew, it wouldn't make a difference for us Jews, as long as those Khazars were properly and truthfully converted. But the Khazar theory is completely wrong. I am not sure if you believe it yourself because first you said the Jews from Russia are "totally Russians" then you said Ashkenazi Jews (and without a doubt the russian Jews are ashkenazi Jews) are Khazars.
In any case, the Kazar theory is a total lie. The Ashkenazi jews originate (as a distinct sub group of Jewry) from western Europe, from communities in the Rhine region that is now part of France and Germany. These Jews were gradually pushed out of western europe by persecutions and crusades. They settled in central and eastern Europe, in Poland, Lithuania, Prussia, Romania, Hungary etc. And they only became Russian subject due to the Russian expansion into Poland, The Ukraine, Romania and the Baltics.
The Khazar Jews didn't survive as a distinct community. Only or mostly the nobility class of the Kazars converted to Judaism. And after they have been subjugated by Russians, Mongols and Persians, they didn't survive as a distinct Jewish community.
Had Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars, they should have turko-mongol genes and look, but they surely do not.
Dúnadan:
I don't have time to all of this, I never said Koestler proved it with genes. Answer me please, how's that Kostler literally means "The Khazar" and still is not descended from Khazars?
And you change what I said with the quotes. Quote the entire thing, you're confusing people.
And I never said that there weren't Jews in Europe before the Khazar kingdom, period.
--- Quote from: Zelhar on August 12, 2009, 04:22:23 PM ---Had Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars, they should have turko-mongol genes and look, but they surely do not.
--- End quote ---
Turko-Mongol? Even when they were recognized by their "long red hair"?
Just as Ashkenazi Jews, look.
Khazars are refered as "Slavo-Turkic", though they were not ethnically Turkic (culturally Turkic, maybe)
--- Quote from: Zelhar on August 12, 2009, 04:22:23 PM ---Dúnadan, first you must understand that Jews have a long established definition of who is a Jew, as we explained here before. It is based on The female lineage and allows for conversions. In theory, even if most of the Ashkenazi gene pool was Kazar rather than ethnic Hebrew, it wouldn't make a difference for us Jews, as long as those Khazars were properly and truthfully converted
--- End quote ---
Fair, this is true
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on August 12, 2009, 04:13:09 PM ---Of course if they converted sincerely, then they are - get this - REAL JEWS! That being said, it is likely that there was sincerity involved as the khazarian documents indicate a real faith, and that they even paid expert Talmudic rabbis to help spread the religion and educate the masses in real Judaism. Where do you think those rabbis came from? LOL
--- End quote ---
And did I never denied this?
My point is: Ashkenazis are descended from Sorbians, Polabians, Khazars, Germanic tribes, and Western Jewish influence (from France, Italy, etc). The percentage of Hebrew blood in them is probably quite little.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Dúnadan on August 12, 2009, 05:43:09 PM ---I don't have time to all of this, I never said Koestler proved it with genes. Answer me please, how's that Kostler literally means "The Khazar" and still is not descended from Khazars?
And you change what I said with the quotes. Quote the entire thing, you're confusing people.
And I never said that there weren't Jews in Europe before the Khazar kingdom, period.
--- Quote from: Zelhar on August 12, 2009, 04:22:23 PM ---Had Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars, they should have turko-mongol genes and look, but they surely do not.
--- End quote ---
Turko-Mongol? Even when they were recognized by their "long red hair"?
Just as Ashkenazi Jews, look.
Khazars are refered as "Slavo-Turkic", though they were not ethnically Turkic (culturally Turkic, maybe)
My point is: Ashkenazis are descended from Sorbians, Polabians, Khazars, Germanic tribes, and Western Jewish influence (from France, Italy, etc). The percentage of Hebrew blood in them is probably quite little.
--- End quote ---
So what is your point?
Ashkenazi Jews are Jews as much as any other Jew. The lineage of Jews have been kept throughout the ages. Your hypothesizing about things doesn't accomplish much.
We are Jews because our mothers were Jews, this has been the law since the Torah was accepted. We also allow others to convert if they go through a conversion process.
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