Author Topic: Being Gay  (Read 11926 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline tron77

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 65
Being Gay
« on: August 18, 2009, 09:55:49 PM »
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 09:57:00 PM »
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?

LOL. Judaism is against homosexuality. If somebody decides they are done with men and want women, then that's a GOOD THING!!! Dix belong in CHIX!!

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 09:57:27 PM »
ROTFLMAO  :::D :::D :::D

Offline tron77

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 65
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 10:03:21 PM »
so only islam throws them off buildings. but doing a goat is ok so long as you dont eat its meat.... swear i didnt make this up

Offline takebackourtemple

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 2449
  • May this be the year that the temple is liberated.
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2009, 10:05:03 PM »
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?

LOL. Judaism is against homosexuality. If somebody decides they are done with men and want women, then that's a GOOD THING!!! Dix belong in CHIX!!

I'm going to rephrase what you said since it is not ok for a faggot to start sleeping around with women just because he stopped sleeping with men. If a faggot decides to stop sleeping around with men and to pursue finding an appropriate wife they have taken the first step towards betshuva. I won't go far enough to say that they should have children after commiting such horrible sins, but if they are truly repentant and change to the point where the can be responsible parents, that might be possible.
Does it bother you that you have to face the dome and the rock to say the sh'ma?

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2009, 10:28:36 PM »
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?

LOL. Judaism is against homosexuality. If somebody decides they are done with men and want women, then that's a GOOD THING!!! Dix belong in CHIX!!

I'm going to rephrase what you said since it is not ok for a faggot to start sleeping around with women just because he stopped sleeping with men. If a faggot decides to stop sleeping around with men and to pursue finding an appropriate wife they have taken the first step towards betshuva. I won't go far enough to say that they should have children after commiting such horrible sins, but if they are truly repentant and change to the point where the can be responsible parents, that might be possible.
Thanks. I meant that :soldier:

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2009, 10:49:30 PM »
Torah doesn't say anything about being 'gay'... Torah expressly forbids the male-male sexual intercourse... But there is nothing about being 'gay' in Torah...

Here is the information from jewfaq.org

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm



 Homosexuality

Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.

I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.

Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.



Leviticus 18

20 And thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 
21 And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. 
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.
23 And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto; it is perversion. 
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out from before you.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2009, 11:10:20 PM »
I agree with you to a point on this issue, Muman. Somebody who refrains from a sin they are not tempted by is not really struggling and resisting anything. In one married couple I know, the husband has a much greater sex drive than his wife, and has at times stumbled into sexual sin such as pornography. His wife, who has a vastly lower libido and is not visually tempted like he is, has at times bragged about "controlling herself". BS. She has never been sexually tempted.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2009, 11:11:40 PM »
I agree with you to a point on this issue, Muman. Somebody who refrains from a sin they are not tempted by is not really struggling and resisting anything. In one married couple I know, the husband has a much greater sex drive than his wife, and has at times stumbled into sexual sin such as pornography. His wife, who has a vastly lower libido and is not visually tempted like he is, has at times bragged about "controlling herself". BS. She has never been sexually tempted.


So you understand where Mo and I were coming from in the thread about Kosher food... We both have a desire for Cheeseburgers, or bacon cheeseburgers, and we have overcome that desire... We don't eat it because Hashem commanded it, not because we don't like the food...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2009, 11:17:45 PM »
Yes, of course I give you credit for that. But I did not start any of the cheeseburger topics.

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 12:07:52 AM »
Torah doesn't say anything about being 'gay'... Torah expressly forbids the male-male sexual intercourse... But there is nothing about being 'gay' in Torah...

Here is the information from jewfaq.org

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm



 Homosexuality

Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.

I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.

Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.



Leviticus 18

20 And thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 
21 And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy G-d: I am the LORD. 
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.
23 And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto; it is perversion. 
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out from before you.


When I was much younger in Yeshiva day school and we learned that "a man shouldn't lie with another man as he lies with a woman" I always wondered what that meant. The only (kosher) way for a man and woman to have intercourse is with a body part that only a woman has. So therefore it is impossible for a man to lie with another man the same way a man lies with a woman. Is it 'lies' or 'lays'?

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2009, 12:24:09 AM »

<snip>

When I was much younger in Yeshiva day school and we learned that "a man shouldn't lie with another man as he lies with a woman" I always wondered what that meant. The only (kosher) way for a man and woman to have intercourse is with a body part that only a woman has. So therefore it is impossible for a man to lie with another man the same way a man lies with a woman. Is it 'lies' or 'lays'?

I am not an authority on homosexual sex, but from what I understand the Torah is talking about one person being the penetrator, and the other being the penetrated. When a man lies with a woman the man is obviously the one who must penetrate, while the woman is penetrated. In a Kabbalistic sense this is related to the concept of the giver, and the receiver. The man is usually the giver, the giver of seed and of making a living. The woman is the receiver, who nurtures the seed till it blooms as a baby human being. In the unnatural case of homosexual sex, the seed is wasted, the receiver and the giver are not fufilling the command of being fruitful, the completion {Shalem} of unifying the male and female souls is prevented because a man and another man cannot be complete souls.

There are many reasons this act is an abomination to Hashem. I have only briefly touched on some of those issues...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Confederate Kahanist

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 10771
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2009, 12:25:07 AM »
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?

LOL. Judaism is against homosexuality. If somebody decides they are done with men and want women, then that's a GOOD THING!!! Dix belong in CHIX!!

ROFL your funny Mo  :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D
Chad M ~ Your rebel against white guilt

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2009, 12:35:16 AM »
Maybe in Islam.  All bestiality is forbidden in Judaism, and although there may be punishments by a Torah state for homosexuals caught in the act, I doubt that "throwing them off a building" would be the form of execution used.

How on earth do you catch a homosexual in the act? I don't think I want to know.

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2009, 12:45:08 AM »

<snip>

When I was much younger in Yeshiva day school and we learned that "a man shouldn't lie with another man as he lies with a woman" I always wondered what that meant. The only (kosher) way for a man and woman to have intercourse is with a body part that only a woman has. So therefore it is impossible for a man to lie with another man the same way a man lies with a woman. Is it 'lies' or 'lays'?

I am not an authority on homosexual sex, but from what I understand the Torah is talking about one person being the penetrator, and the other being the penetrated. When a man lies with a woman the man is obviously the one who must penetrate, while the woman is penetrated. In a Kabbalistic sense this is related to the concept of the giver, and the receiver. The man is usually the giver, the giver of seed and of making a living. The woman is the receiver, who nurtures the seed till it blooms as a baby human being. In the unnatural case of homosexual sex, the seed is wasted, the receiver and the giver are not fufilling the command of being fruitful, the completion {Shalem} of unifying the male and female souls is prevented because a man and another man cannot be complete souls.

There are many reasons this act is an abomination to Hashem. I have only briefly touched on some of those issues...



Is Judaism against condom use?

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2009, 12:46:30 AM »

<snip>

Is Judaism against condom use?

I believe so...

From that site I quoted before on Sex...


http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm

Birth Control

In principle, birth control is permitted, so long as the couple is committed to eventually fulfilling the mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply (which, at a minimum, consists of having two children, one of each gender). The issue in birth control is not whether it is permitted, but what method is permitted, and under what circumstances.

Birth control is rather clearly permitted in circumstances where pregnancy would pose a medical risk to the mother or her other children. For example, the Talmud recognizes the use of birth control by very young women, pregnant women or nursing women. However, there is some variance of opinion as to what other circumstances might permit birth control. If this is an issue for you, you should consult a competent rabbinic authority.

It is well-established that methods that destroy the seed or block the passage of the seed are not permitted, thus condoms are not permitted for birth control. However, the pill is well-recognized as an acceptable form of birth control under Jewish law. I have also heard some say that a condom would be permitted under Jewish law to prevent the transmission of AIDS or similar diseases, because preserving the life of the uninfected spouse takes priority; however, I am not certain how authoritative this view is. If this is an issue for you, you should consult a competent rabbinic authority.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2009, 12:47:18 AM »

<snip>

When I was much younger in Yeshiva day school and we learned that "a man shouldn't lie with another man as he lies with a woman" I always wondered what that meant. The only (kosher) way for a man and woman to have intercourse is with a body part that only a woman has. So therefore it is impossible for a man to lie with another man the same way a man lies with a woman. Is it 'lies' or 'lays'?

I am not an authority on homosexual sex, but from what I understand the Torah is talking about one person being the penetrator, and the other being the penetrated. When a man lies with a woman the man is obviously the one who must penetrate, while the woman is penetrated. In a Kabbalistic sense this is related to the concept of the giver, and the receiver. The man is usually the giver, the giver of seed and of making a living. The woman is the receiver, who nurtures the seed till it blooms as a baby human being. In the unnatural case of homosexual sex, the seed is wasted, the receiver and the giver are not fufilling the command of being fruitful, the completion {Shalem} of unifying the male and female souls is prevented because a man and another man cannot be complete souls.

There are many reasons this act is an abomination to Hashem. I have only briefly touched on some of those issues...



Is Judaism against condom use?

Unless you get permission from a Rabbi.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2009, 12:48:42 AM »
Muman,

I am curious as to why "be fruitful and increase in number" is not part of the Noahide laws. G-d spoke this to Adam and Eve, who were the first humans on earth and obviously predated the Jews.

Personally I don't believe everyone needs to reproduce, but that is just my own opinion and I know Torah Judaism disagrees.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2009, 12:49:52 AM »
How on earth do you catch a homosexual in the act? I don't think I want to know.
Lurk on StørmFrønt long enough.  :laugh:

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2009, 12:50:10 AM »
Muman,

I am curious as to why "be fruitful and increase in number" is not part of the Noahide laws. G-d spoke this to Adam and Eve, who were the first humans on earth and obviously predated the Jews.

Personally I don't believe everyone needs to reproduce, but that is just my own opinion and I know Torah Judaism disagrees.

Because G-d knew how many shvartze chalariyas there would be and did NOT want THEM multiplying.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2009, 12:51:50 AM »
I thought the Noahide Laws were for righteous people.

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2009, 12:52:05 AM »
Thanks for the insight Muman. I don't really think a few lost sperm are that important, considering the fact that most of them will not fertilize an egg anyway, and most sexual encounters between a man and a wife will not result in pregnancy anyway. I'm not sure why this is considered to be of such importance.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2009, 12:53:16 AM »
Thanks for the insight Muman. I don't really think a few lost sperm are that important, considering the fact that most of them will not fertilize an egg anyway, and most sexual encounters between a man and a wife will not result in pregnancy anyway. I'm not sure why this is considered to be of such importance.
I think this is just an area where Torah Judaism and other religions differ. We'll just have to leave it at that.

Edit: Catholicism believes something similar--even stricter actually.

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2009, 12:54:29 AM »
Thanks for the insight Muman. I don't really think a few lost sperm are that important, considering the fact that most of them will not fertilize an egg anyway, and most sexual encounters between a man and a wife will not result in pregnancy anyway. I'm not sure why this is considered to be of such importance.
I think this is just an area where Torah Judaism and other religions differ. We'll just have to leave it at that.

Torah Judaism is a shtickl redundant no? I mean what other Judaism is there? NON-TORAH Judaism? :::D :::D :::D :::D

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Being Gay
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2009, 12:55:10 AM »
Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.