Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I split this thread from a different thread...


The question we are asking of Chaim is whether this is a mitzvah {command/good deed} for non-Jews to do?

Specifically whether Hashem commanded righteous gentiles to 'be fruitful and multiply' as he commanded Adam and Chava in Gan Eden.

I would be interested in the sources for this understanding.

muman613

Very eloquently put, and actually correct.. The Noachide laws were given to Noah after the world had become foul with theft and immorality. Many things changed at that time as Hashem wanted to start over again... But Noah was a disappointment. It is interesting that he was considered the most righteous of his generation, yet he was lowered in stature by the end of his story. The nations got the seven Noachide laws in order to maintain order in the world. The mitzvah of procreation was a gift given by Hashem to the Jewish nation at mount Sinai along with the 612 others.

If the nations were to have this mitzvah then the world may once again be overflowing with theft and immorality.

I don't want to argue with a religious Jew, and that is not what I am trying to do here, but I don't follow this reasoning. The Noahide Laws are basic rules for civilized behavior that are mandatory on all mankind, although very few live by them. Surely G-d knew that the vast majority would never live by the Noahide Laws, so therefore it's kind of moot to fear that increased procreation caused by all mankind abiding by the 7NLs would lead to a planet even more debased than the current one. If somebody is going to procreate because G-d commanded it of everyone, then they are probably going to obey the other NLs like not murdering, not committing immorality or animal torture, etc. too.

Also, the proclamation to be fruitful (I would not call it a commandment, personally, based on my readings of Genesis, it appears to be a gift/blessing proclamation--I thought the only true commandment pre-Fall is not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge) comes before the Fall of Man and LONG before the address on Mount Sinai. If there is some Scripture that I am missing or overlooking here please feel free to share it, but that's what I have always gotten out of this part of the Bible. If it is indeed a mitzvah, though, it would seem only logical that it applies to all of humankind, or at least all humans that are interested in righteousness, based on its placement in human history. Have there been any Torah sages who have argued that Gen 1:28 applies to all mankind? I do believe Chaim thinks it does (all righteous people, at least).

[The One and Only Mo]

Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.

And everything in between that and Orthodoxy. When did the term "Orthodox Judaism" get coined, anyway?

When Reform was 'invented'

But Reform Judaism was created to by Moses Mendelsohn as an attempt to integrate Jews into secular society. He wanted everybody to be frum but just to join the working world and pretend to not be frum on the outside with all the anti-semites. It was his followers that pissed away Judaism and took it to a worse level. His intentions were for partial assimilation ie. on the outside. But he maintained every Jew should still keep the 613. I forgot the follower of his that took it farther.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

How long did it take after Mendelsohn before Jews started bowing down to the holy and sacred negro gd?

[The One and Only Mo]

Very eloquently put, and actually correct.. The Noachide laws were given to Noah after the world had become foul with theft and immorality. Many things changed at that time as Hashem wanted to start over again... But Noah was a disappointment. It is interesting that he was considered the most righteous of his generation, yet he was lowered in stature by the end of his story. The nations got the seven Noachide laws in order to maintain order in the world. The mitzvah of procreation was a gift given by Hashem to the Jewish nation at mount Sinai along with the 612 others.

If the nations were to have this mitzvah then the world may once again be overflowing with theft and immorality.

I don't want to argue with a religious Jew, and that is not what I am trying to do here, but I don't follow this reasoning. The Noahide Laws are basic rules for civilized behavior that are mandatory on all mankind, although very few live by them. Surely G-d knew that the vast majority would never live by the Noahide Laws, so therefore it's kind of moot to fear that increased procreation caused by all mankind abiding by the 7NLs would lead to a planet even more debased than the current one. If somebody is going to procreate because G-d commanded it of everyone, then they are probably going to obey the other NLs like not murdering, not committing immorality or animal torture, etc. too.

Also, the proclamation to be fruitful (I would not call it a commandment, personally, based on my readings of Genesis, it appears to be a gift/blessing proclamation--I thought the only true commandment pre-Fall is not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge) comes before the Fall of Man and LONG before the address on Mount Sinai. If there is some Scripture that I am missing or overlooking here please feel free to share it, but that's what I have always gotten out of this part of the Bible. If it is indeed a mitzvah, though, it would seem only logical that it applies to all of humankind, or at least all humans that are interested in righteousness, based on its placement in human history. Have there been any Torah sages who have argued that Gen 1:28 applies to all mankind? I do believe Chaim thinks it does (all righteous people, at least).

The entire point of the mitzvah is to create Jews and to fill the world with Torah and mitzvos. Goyim aren't commanded for this because no matter what, they have no Torah and Mitzvos.

[The One and Only Mo]

How long did it take after Mendelsohn before Jews started bowing down to the holy and sacred negro gd?

No clue.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Goyim are still expected to conform to basic standards of civility and to believe in and worship the one true G-d though. Why wouldn't God insist that righteous Gentiles increase in number? Chaim believes that RGs must be fruitful and multiply after all.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

No clue.

I don't understand what it is with people-groups becoming so insanely self-hating. American Jews worship the holy negro, who is responsible for more murders of American Jews than any other group. Negroes worship the holy Arab, who is responsible for more enslavement and murder of blacks than every other ethnicity combined.

[The One and Only Mo]

Goyim are still expected to conform to basic standards of civility and to believe in and worship the one true G-d though. Why wouldn't G-d insist that righteous Gentiles increase in number? Chaim believes that RGs must be fruitful and multiply after all.

In the first Rashi of the Torah in Beresheit, Rashi points out that the world was created for the sake of the Jewish people. Therefore, in my opinion, there shouldn't be a commandment for goyim to multiply when the world wasn't created for them. The point is for Jews to be numerous.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

How can the world be created just for Jewish people when Jews were only given Eretz Yisrael? Are there other lands that Jews are supposed to fill someday?

[The One and Only Mo]

No clue.

I don't understand what it is with people-groups becoming so insanely self-hating. American Jews worship the holy negro, who is responsible for more murders of American Jews than any other group. Negroes worship the holy Arab, who is responsible for more enslavement and murder of blacks than every other ethnicity combined.

If we understood it, we wouldn't be here right now, would we?

[muman613]

Goyim are still expected to conform to basic standards of civility and to believe in and worship the one true G-d though. Why wouldn't G-d insist that righteous Gentiles increase in number? Chaim believes that RGs must be fruitful and multiply after all.

In the first Rashi of the Torah in Beresheit, Rashi points out that the world was created for the sake of the Jewish people. Therefore, in my opinion, there shouldn't be a commandment for goyim to multiply when the world wasn't created for them. The point is for Jews to be numerous.

Thats a bit forthright but it is what some of our sages have said.

The Jews bring blessing to the world we are supposed to be a light to the nations.

When Moshiach comes we will bring the world together in peace, to worship Hashem in the Holy Temple.

This is what the Prophets of Israel prophecied in Tanakh.

It is also what Matisyahu is alluding to in the song One Day.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).

I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.

[The One and Only Mo]

I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).

I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.

Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Hopefully he will. I have heard this topic before on Ask JTF and he was very clear about it.

[muman613]

I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).

I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.

Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.

It is possible that he may... It would be interesting to hear his opinion on this topic. I would like to know the source for this opinion.

I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.

[The One and Only Mo]

I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).

I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.

Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.

K now I'll never be able to get to sleep without having a definitive answer. Can we make a new thread to get his attention to look at this one?
It is possible that he may... It would be interesting to hear his opinion on this topic. I would like to know the source for this opinion.

I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.

[muman613]

Maybe Ill split this thread...

[The One and Only Mo]

Thanks.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Oh, I see it now.

BTW, I thought mitzvot were only for Jews. I thought commandments for Gentiles are called Noahide Laws.

[The One and Only Mo]

Oh, I see it now.

BTW, I thought mitzvot were only for Jews. I thought commandments for Gentiles are called Noahide Laws.

mitzvot is hebrew for commandments.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.

The Shabbat commandment was given specifically to the Jews, but Gen 1:28 was given to all mankind (at the time).

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

mitzvot is hebrew for commandments.

How then do you say Jewish commandments?

[The One and Only Mo]

mitzvot is hebrew for commandments.

How then do you say Jewish commandments?

Mitzvot La'Yehudim. or Taryag Mitzvot which means the 613 mitzvot.

[muman613]

In the meanwhile I will do some searches on a kosher search engine for some answers to this issue..

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/2/Q1/

AT&T Bell Laboratories, in Columbus, Ohio asks:

n Parshat Vayishlach, you wrote that "There are only three mitzvot in Sefer Bereishit. The first mitzvah, to be fruitful and multiply, is essential to the survival of all of Mankind..." And yet, on the surface, "p'ru ur'vu" is not one of the commandments for the Bnei Noach. Why not?

Dear AT&T,

There are 7 commandments from Hashem for the Bnei Noach to govern their behavior. They are:

Prohibition against Prohibition against adultery.
idolatry. Prohibition against eating a limb
Prohibition against of a live animal.
blasphemy. The commandment to establish courts
Prohibition against of law.
murder.
Prohibition against
theft.

The Sefer HaChinuch lists the three mitzvot taught in the Book of Bereishit, and writes that they apply only to the Jewish People.

   1. "Be fruitful and multiply" in Parshat Bereishit.
   2. "Brit mila" in Parshat Lech Lecha.
   3. "Don't eat the gid hanashe" in Vayishlach.

Brit mila is a covenant "between Me and you [Avraham] and your seed after you" (Bereishit 17:10). Thus, the Bnei Noach are excluded from this mitzvah.

In Vayishlach, the Torah states "The children of Israel shall not eat the gid hanashe" (Bereishit 31:33). Once again the Bnei Noach are exempted.

The mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply was given to the first Man (Bereishit 1:28) and repeated to Noach (Bereishit 9:1). It would appear equally incumbent upon all Mankind. Yet, this is *not* one of the 7 Noachide Laws.

The Talmud explains that:

"All mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach and *repeated* at Sinai, apply to both Jews and non-Jews. Those mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach but *not* repeated at Sinai were given only to the Jews."

"P'ru ur'vu" was not repeated at Sinai. So, even though Adam and Noach had been personally commanded to reproduce, the mitzvah did not become one of the 7 Noachide Laws.

It should be noted, however, that there is a special obligation to ensure that the world is fully populated, and that this obligation is equally applicable to Jew and Gentile. It is derived from a verse in the writings of the Prophets which calls upon Mankind inhabit as much of the Creation as possible:

"He [Hashem] did not create the world to be desolate; [rather] to be settled he formed it."

Sources:

    * Tractate Sanhedrin, 59a.
    * Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim ch. 9.
    * Sefer HaChinuch.
    * The Path of the Righteous Gentile, by Chaim Clorfene and Yakov Regalsky (Targum Press).
    * Isaiah 45.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

So basically, you are saying that righteous Gentiles are commanded to multiply, but that it's not one of the Noahide Laws?