Learn history - youtube comments are not a good source of accurate information

[Spectator]

I really never discredited the contribution that Soviet Russia made to the war they fought a hard won battles. My problem in the original thread and then in this one was the fact that America was made to seem like a side player. This was simply not the case. Manch needs to remember that Russia was fighting for the home turf and if the sacrifice was bigger in blood it needed to be. Lets not forget that America also had to split its resources between the Atlantic and Pacific war something Russia did not have to do. I always thought it was great that the three main players in the game were able to put their differences aside for a while to prosecute the war. I always felt each country did what it was able to to bring the war to a successful close. My hat is off to both your grandfathers they deserve all the respect in the world. I went over to my parents house while we were going through the debate last night and my father who was in Patton's army was quite amused over the tread. He spent some time telling me some interesting accounts about the German and Russian troops and how they fought the war.

Yes it was great that the three sides put the differences aside to fight the Nazi plague.
All respect to you father! What did he tell you about Russians and Germans?

[cjd]

I really never discredited the contribution that Soviet Russia made to the war they fought a hard won battles. My problem in the original thread and then in this one was the fact that America was made to seem like a side player. This was simply not the case. Manch needs to remember that Russia was fighting for the home turf and if the sacrifice was bigger in blood it needed to be. Lets not forget that America also had to split its resources between the Atlantic and Pacific war something Russia did not have to do. I always thought it was great that the three main players in the game were able to put their differences aside for a while to prosecute the war. I always felt each country did what it was able to to bring the war to a successful close. My hat is off to both your grandfathers they deserve all the respect in the world. I went over to my parents house while we were going through the debate last night and my father who was in Patton's army was quite amused over the tread. He spent some time telling me some interesting accounts about the German and Russian troops and how they fought the war.

Yes it was great that the three sides put the differences aside to fight the Nazi plague.
All respect to you father! What did he tell you about Russians and Germans?

Well he told me a story about how the Germans did use horses to move their artillery around and how the would hear them doing it at night. He said that one night they were on patrol  they actually captured about 10 pieces of equipment. He said that one of the guys they were on patrol with who was Jewish jumped out and startled the Germans. He was able to speak German and convinced them that they were surrounded. They took the Germans prisoner but when they got back to camp with them the officers did not know what to do with them and were slightly pissed. He told me another story about a Russian woman who was a sniper  near the end of the war she spent time in the American camp. She would talk about the Germans killing Russians and how she would go out and try to pick off an equal amount of Germans. My father said he asked her how she hoped to win the war like that and he said she told him Russia had plenty of people. My father is having some problems with his eye sight right now but I am sure he would have had more to say if he was able to read the thread yesterday.

[Zelhar]

I saw some here quoting the Soviet estimated losses on the war, excluding civilians of course, is 6.6 million. It is an under estimate by at least 2 million.

Also, the significant of the western fronts, beside the actual number of German casualties and troops occupied with that front, was logistically and operatively immense.
The Naval blockade on Germany forced created critical shortages in many types of resources and commodities and almost shut completely their international trade. It is true that thanks to the so called neutral countries Sweden and Switzerland The Germans could keep trading with the outside world but only to a very limited and crippling level. Moreover, the sea war took immense resources and casualties from Germany. On the other hand, the soviet could get supply for free, including the shipping.

The air campaign severely crippled the German industrial production and transportation. They managed to increase production despite that, but it was still a huge handicap. Without it they could produce and ship to the front allot more supplies and allot faster.

There were Immense logistical losses to the Germans in the African front. Most of the equipment the Germans sent was sunk on the way. And the battle of Britain also took a huge price for the Luftwaffe.

If the Germans had to fight a single front war with no blockade, my opinion is they would have subdue Russia by 1942 at the latest.

[MarZutra]

Jaanai, that is the best example of Muslim cowardice there is.  May the West, and Israel, soon awake and throw out EVERY Muhammadan savage from dar al harb. 

[Manch]

While I don't agree with many of cjd's views, I understand him very well. He is an American patriot and he doesn't like when the traditional understanding of his country's contribution to WW2 is challenged. If I were American, I would react in the same way. After all, that's an American forum.

Manch, leave the task of proving that the Soviets won the war to the powerful Russian propaganda machine. Why should we do their job? Would Russians care about Israeli Defence Forces as you care about the Red Army?

That's a good point Spectator. On the Russian sides there are plenty of imbeciles and ignoramuses who, like cjd, completely deny any contributions by Allies and argue that Soviet Union won the war alone. Yes, most Russians, not all, think that IDF never won a war - it was arabs who lost it. I am not defending Russia, trust me, but it is utterly moronic to make ignorant statements that cjd made.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

cjd, try also to understand Manch. His support of the Soviet version has nothing to do with love of Russia or communism. His grandfathers were Soviet soldiers during the WW2 who fought Nazi beasts on the Eastern front. Soviet victory was also their and, consequently, his victory. Therefore, he takes all attacks on Soviet version personally. One of my grandfathers also fought in the Red Army against the Nazis and finished the war in Berlin. I am very proud of that.

No matter what quality of command and equipment Soviet soldiers had, their personal contribution to the victory and self-sacrifice are enormus.

There is a difference between Soviet Jewish freedom fighters and the bulk of the Red Army. One could even argue that the Soviet army won in large part due to the efforts of Jewish soldiers. By and large the Russian military was not good in WWII until the Nazi war machine had already been worn down by years of fighting. This is indisputable.

[Manch]

The soviets fought an obsolete war they fought on horse back at some points against a modern German army. The Russians made up the defecency in human numbers.

Please prove it.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/cavalry/index.html
I am on a HP mini at the moment thats the best I can do until I am at home.

Great, you never bothered even to read the link you provided?! How does it make you intelligent and honest debater!


This whole article defends the merits of limited use of horse on the Eastern front. In particular, in 1942, when most of the soviet armor was destroyed, Soviet commanders relied on cavalry corps as the only available mobile reserve. That makes them backward?! Perhaps you should read all the the books that you have and get some German, Russian and English ones. At the very least, read the article you provided!

CONCLUSION

The U.S.S.R., with vast distances and few roads, and with severe climatic conditions during much of the year, has used horse cavalry to great advantage during World War II.

By the results achieved, the Soviets have justified the use of cavalry, not as a substitute for armor and mechanized forces, but as an independent arm and as a supplement to armor and mechanized might in operations over severe terrain.

Russian cavalry has great power in supporting weapons. The organization is so designed as to provide a small and mobile striking force with adequate support of artillery, mortars, and automatic weapons. Cavalry and tanks have been combined into a smooth working and effective organization.

BTW, each cavalry corp, at later stages of the war, had two tank and tank destroyer regiments and the most famous Soviet Cavalry Corp commander was Lev Dovator, yes you guessed it - a Jewish general, a hero of the Soviet Union (highest award in USSR), KIA in 1941 while counter attacking Germans, after 150 km raid into Germans rear.

[Manch]

There is a difference between Soviet Jewish freedom fighters and the bulk of the Red Army. One could even argue that the Soviet army won in large part due to the efforts of Jewish soldiers. By and large the Russian military was not good in WWII until the Nazi war machine had already been worn down by years of fighting. This is indisputable.

My friend, what you wrote here is very, very disputable.

[cjd]

While I don't agree with many of cjd's views, I understand him very well. He is an American patriot and he doesn't like when the traditional understanding of his country's contribution to WW2 is challenged. If I were American, I would react in the same way. After all, that's an American forum.

Manch, leave the task of proving that the Soviets won the war to the powerful Russian propaganda machine. Why should we do their job? Would Russians care about Israeli Defence Forces as you care about the Red Army?

That's a good point Spectator. On the Russian sides there are plenty of imbeciles and ignoramuses who, like cjd, completely deny any contributions by Allies and argue that Soviet Union won the war alone. Yes, most Russians, not all, think that IDF never won a war - it was arabs who lost it. I am not defending Russia, trust me, but it is utterly moronic to make ignorant statements that cjd made.

I have seen some story twisters in my day but you Manch take the prize. You should go into politics. You would fit in well with all the low life double talking scum like yourself. Have a great night my friend. 

[Manch]

I have seen some story twisters in my day but you Manch take the prize. You should go into politics. You would fit in well with all the low life double talking scum like yourself. Have a great night my friend. 

Instead of proving you point and providing sources for your statement you just proved how stupid and ignorant you are. Don't get too emotional - get yourself some reading glasses and take some reading and comprehension courses at the nearest city college.

[t_h_j]

There is a difference between Soviet Jewish freedom fighters and the bulk of the Red Army. One could even argue that the Soviet army won in large part due to the efforts of Jewish soldiers. By and large the Russian military was not good in WWII until the Nazi war machine had already been worn down by years of fighting. This is indisputable.

that's so absurd it's laughable

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yes t_h_j, those fine Soviet fighters that died at like a 9:1 ratio to Nazis in '41-42.

[Manch]

Yes t_h_j, those fine Soviet fighters that died at like a 9:1 ratio to Nazis in '41-42.

The tragedy of 1941 and 1942 is the reason to celebrate and to sneer?! Let's have a laugh then at over 3 mil Red Army soldiers captured and tortured by nazis in 1941! Do you have similar datafor hapless British and French troops of 1940s or Poles of 1939? Any combat statistics there?
Bones, you have not provided one source for any of the asinine statements you've made in this thread. You should have checked the references I provided or provide your sources before making new uninformed statements.