Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
People Kept Kosher Even Before The Torah Was Given!!!
Sefardic Panther:
These earlier Toranic references are evidence that the difference between Kosher animals and treif animals is a scientific reality it is not simply because G-d said so in Wayiqra ch.11.
In Bereishith ch.7 Hashem commanded Noah to bring 7 (not 2) of every Kosher animal on the tevat (ark). Noah and his family were not even Jewish so this implys that Gentiles should keep Kosher.
The Midrash on Bereishith 43:16 says Yosef ordered a Kosher animal to be slaughtered when his 11 brothers visited him in egypt.
The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher. Remember that Hashem controls everything that happens in the world. So whenever we suffer it is a punishment from Hashem. That is exactly why the Egyptians originally welcomed Yosef’s family but then as Tehillim 105:25 says Hashem turned their heart to hate them.
muman613:
This is well known from the story of Noah. The commentary clearly explains this.
I don't know if there is any implication that non-Jews should keep kosher. Remember that before Noah mankind was only allowed to eat vegetation and not eat meat. So I don't think it can be argued that there was any requirement for mankind to keep kosher. The laws of Kashrut are meant to make the Jewish nation separate {one of many explanations}.
The definition of Kosher is defined clearly in Torah but before it was given there was no command. You do know the Talmud which says one who does something which they are not commanded is not as great as one who does something when they are commanded.
http://www.vbm-torah.org/shavuot/shav63-ek.htm
--- Quote ---OBLIGATION AND INITIATIVE
"Greater is one who is commanded [to perform a mitzva] and fulfills, than one who is not commanded but fulfills." (Bava Kama 87a and elsewhere)
Several reasons have been proposed for the above principle. Some say that a person who is actually commanded to fulfill the mitzva is burdened with responsibility and takes greater care to fulfill it properly. Others claim that the evil inclination attacks one with greater force if he is commanded, and one who is commanded must consequently exert greater effort to resist his inner rebellious urgings.
Despite the logic of these explanations, the statement itself still sounds problematic. The great figures of our history, who paved new paths in divine service, exercised personal initiative, and fall into the category of those who were "not commanded." Our obligations are listed in the Shulchan Arukh, and they are uniform and common to all of Israel. But what obligation did R. Chaim of Volozhin fulfill when he established his yeshiva, or the Ba'al Shem Tov when he founded Chassidism? Was it not the spirit of volunteerism that inspired them to perform their great deeds? Are we really meant to evaluate such a person's life's mission - bearing the stamp of originality and private initiative - as being worth less than his recitation of "birkat ha-mazon" or the fact that he donned tefillin?
..
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Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 13, 2009, 08:01:00 AM ---The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher.
--- End quote ---
Because they didn't keep kosher? Please cite the midrash.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 13, 2009, 10:23:09 AM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 13, 2009, 08:01:00 AM ---The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher.
--- End quote ---
Because they didn't keep kosher? Please cite the midrash.
--- End quote ---
I am not sure what he is referring to here. We do know that Hashem told Abraham that his descendants would be strangers in a strange land.
http://www.tfdixie.com/parshat/kiteitzei/008.htm
--- Quote ---
Although the Children of Israel may not have been considered a nation until we received the Torah at Mt. Sinai, the events that led up to that point were integral in our spiritual growth and sensitivity towards others. Hashem wants us to remember our experience in Egypt, so that we can internalize the beauty of the Torah. Hashem told Abraham right from the start that we would be slaves in a foreign land (Genesis 15:13). The reason for slavery was not a punishment; it was actually a blessing. It gave us the opportunity to grow both physically and spiritually. We acquired an awareness for people who are in the most desperate of situations. At the time of our bondage it surely did not feel like a blessing, but in hindsight we can see how we have benefited from that predicament. Hashem has done a kindness to us by teaching our nation sensitivity, and thereby making it easier to fulfill these types of mitzvot.
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Sefardic Panther:
Well even if Noah and his family didn’t eat the extra Kosher animals (although in Bereishith ch.9 Hashem did specifically tell them not to eat blood) the point is there was still a distinction between Kosher and treif animals long before the Torah was given.
I think the implication is that Hashem wants the Gentiles to convert to Judaism. Why did Hashem create the Gentiles if He did not want them to convert to Judaism.
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 13, 2009, 10:23:09 AM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 13, 2009, 08:01:00 AM ---The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher.
--- End quote ---
Because they didn't keep kosher? Please cite the midrash.
--- End quote ---
The Midrash is the Zohar. I know you don’t accept the Zohar or maybe you have since changed your mind about it. But this is certainly a consistent explanation. Why were the Jews so extremely persecuted in egypt? Hashem would never send such a severe punishment on the entire Jewish people for nothing.
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