First 5 Pasuqim Of Bereishith The Way It Should Be Read!!!

[Sefardic Panther]

A Temani cantor reads the first 5 verses of Bereishith in Hebrew, Aramaic (Targum Onqelus) and Arabic (Saadia Gaon’s Tafsir) –



This is how the Torah should be read. The Sefer Yetsirah says there are only 7 Hebrew letters with 2 pronounciations the BeGeD KaPoReT. Unfortunately most Jews pronounce the letter Waw like it’s an undotted Bet, they pronounce Het like its an undotted Kaf and they pronounce Qof like it’s a dotted Kaf and they make no distinction between a dotted and undotted Taw. The Temani are the only Jews who have preserved the correct pronunciation.

[muman613]

Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?

http://www.torah.org/linkedlists/torah-forum/vol3/0875.html

member of Torah Forum wrote:
<<Scientifically and linguistically it's almost certain that Sephardic
pronounciation is closer to the original ancient Hebrew than Ashkenazic
Hebrew.>>

This assumes that the Israeli version of Sepharadit is the same as the
Sepharadi version. It is not; furthermore there are definitely some
aspects of Ashkenazi pronunciation that are more correct than even the
authentic Sepharadi way. The "true" pronunciation lies somewhere in
between. I will not speculate at what point on the continuum.

>Halachically speaking, if a person believes that it's more correct to
>pronounce the Sephardic pronounciation, perhaps he should adopt that way.

This is correct and your citation from Rav Soloveitchik and other Gedolim
bears this out - only if you are sure that your adopted version is more
correct than the one you are leaving behind. Otherwise "al titosh toras
imecha" ('don't reject the teachings of your Mother' - in other words -
'stick to your tradition') is an important rule.

<<On the other hand, there are many different Ashkenazic pronounciations.>>

As there are different Sepharadi pronunciations.

Gershon
[email protected]
http://pw2.netcom.com/~gdubin/lcs.htm

[muman613]

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/print.asp?id=3240
Hebrew pronunciation
Rabbi Elchanan Lewis

Question:
I’ve been wondering for a long time about the correct accent to use when speaking hebrew and leining etc. on the on hand Ashkenaz differentiates between Patach and Kamatz etc. which would appear to be better but then I heard the Sefaradi is better because there are contraditions in certain songs with the Ashkenaz one and Sefaradi is used as speaking Hebrew in Israel and its more authentic....so which one is the best or most correct? I know this isn’t the most important aspect about davening etc. but I learnt that the Vilna Gaon was very particular about speaking properly and correctly and I feel that it would help me and that it is important to me to be able to speak in the best way possible.


Answer:
The Poskim can't reach an agreement on what is the best and most correct pronunciation (it seems the Yemenite Jews have the most accurate version), all however agree that one should not change his family tradition.
(See Igrot Moshe OC 3 5, Yabia Omer 6 11, Heichal Yitzchak OC 3)

One should also note that an attempt to change a long practiced pronunciation may cause a Kavanah distraction which by all means is more important than the pronunciation itself.


Personally I have no desire to change my pronunciation. Everyone understands what I say and it is the tradition of my family, which all Rabbis agree is the best minhag to keep...

[Zelhar]

The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?

http://www.torah.org/linkedlists/torah-forum/vol3/0875.html

member of Torah Forum wrote:
<<Scientifically and linguistically it's almost certain that Sefardic
pronounciation is closer to the original ancient Hebrew than Ashkenazic
Hebrew.>>

This assumes that the Israeli version of Sepharadit is the same as the
Sepharadi version. It is not; furthermore there are definitely some
aspects of Ashkenazi pronunciation that are more correct than even the
authentic Sepharadi way. The "true" pronunciation lies somewhere in
between. I will not speculate at what point on the continuum.

>Halachically speaking, if a person believes that it's more correct to
>pronounce the Sefardic pronounciation, perhaps he should adopt that way.

This is correct and your citation from Rav Soloveitchik and other Gedolim
bears this out - only if you are sure that your adopted version is more
correct than the one you are leaving behind. Otherwise "al titosh toras
imecha" ('don't reject the teachings of your Mother' - in other words -
'stick to your tradition') is an important rule.

<<On the other hand, there are many different Ashkenazic pronounciations.>>

As there are different Sepharadi pronunciations.

Gershon
[email protected]
http://pw2.netcom.com/~gdubin/lcs.htm

Who in the world is "gershon Dubin" and why doesn't he source anything to back up his assertions?

Sephardi panther is right about this.   Yes a waw is a waw, and a Het is not pronounced as a chaf.   Rav Kook said that in true Lashon HaQodesh, every letter has its own unique pronunciation and that this is self-evident.   Of course the language would not have different letters making the same sounds.    The only mystery is the similarity of the "sin" and the samech.   This is also reported on by earlier sources, that we at some point lost the pronunciation and that there must have been some subtle difference between the two originally.   

Muman, I'll take Rav Kook's words over "gershon dubin"  random guy on a forum.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Muman, this is not an issue of "Sephardi vs. Ashkenazi, who's better" or "who's more accurate" ....   Nobody is discrediting the Jewish mesorah (as a whole) of Ashkenazim or questioning the backgrounds or Jewish ancestry of any of these groups.

The fact remains, that the pronunciation of Hebrew by BOTH of these groups has it's problems.   Notice, Sephardi Panther cited the TEYMANIM - These are the Yemenite Jews - who maintained a tradition of pronunciation unique from BOTH of the current Ashkenaz and Sephardi pronunciation, although in more ways similar to Sephardic.    The bottom line is what is the correct way to speak our holy language.   Not who is right or wrong or who is the best or closest.   The point is, since the Hebrew language is the holy tongue and so important as it was crafted, let's try to adhere to its actual guidelines, be the masters of our own national language, and pronounce it properly as God intended.   

Errors and mistakes crept into the mesorah for pronunciation by different groups in different areas, and this was a natural historical process, when people ended up in places where the common language had sounds that were different from Hebrew or didn't contain some of the unique sounds of Hebrew.   This is why Ashkenazic Jews only pronounced waw as an undotted Bet, a bh or V sound, because in Ashkenaz and Europe they did not produce this sound W in the local languages, for x amount of time, enough that it passed out from the spoken dialect of the Jews in their prayers, etc.      There is nothing wrong with acknowledging these mistakes and adjusting accordingly, and the work of linguists and grammaticists elucidates the proper Hebrew format.   Chief among them is the great Grammarian and one of the greatest, most learned rabbis of all time, the Saadiah Gaon.   He gave us explicit instructions and explanations regarding pronunciation that other later sources did not necessarily take time to explain.   And given the early era he lived in, he can be relied upon for the bulk of this linguistic analysis.

[muman613]

Yes, why would the Torah be read in Arabic? I don't know what Jewish communities would adopt such a language... Why not read it in Greek or Yiddish?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/print.asp?id=3240
Hebrew pronunciation
Rabbi Elchanan Lewis

Question:
I’ve been wondering for a long time about the correct accent to use when speaking hebrew and leining etc. on the on hand Ashkenaz differentiates between Patach and Kamatz etc. which would appear to be better but then I heard the Sefaradi is better because there are contraditions in certain songs with the Ashkenaz one and Sefaradi is used as speaking Hebrew in Israel and its more authentic....so which one is the best or most correct? I know this isn’t the most important aspect about davening etc. but I learnt that the Vilna Gaon was very particular about speaking properly and correctly and I feel that it would help me and that it is important to me to be able to speak in the best way possible.


Answer:
The Poskim can't reach an agreement on what is the best and most correct pronunciation (it seems the Yemenite Jews have the most accurate version), all however agree that one should not change his family tradition.
(See Igrot Moshe OC 3 5, Yabia Omer 6 11, Heichal Yitzchak OC 3) 

Why not?  In reality, there is no harm in doing so.    And there is a choice between saying something a person knows is wrong, but to maintain a family tradition of saying it incorrectly, vs. adopting the correct way, which there is no sin or anything wrong in doing, in fact it has great merit because it is the true way of connecting to lashon hakodesh and bringing out the beauty of the language.    People take on new chumrahs all the time that my grandfather never heard of, and that a person's family never kept, so the whole idea about "not changing family custom" is not entirely true.

One should also note that an attempt to change a long practiced pronunciation may cause a Kavanah distraction which by all means is more important than the pronunciation itself. 

I learned to pronounce the waw as a "vav" as a kid in hebrew school, yet I changed to a waw in my davening pronunciation, and find it is so much more natural and a more flowing way to speak and daven.  I have never had a distraction in kavanah based on pronunciation.

which all Rabbis agree is the best minhag to keep... 

It is always a mistake to say "all rabbis" Muman, because that statement is not true.   Rabbi Daweed Bar Hayim is a rabbi, and he does NOT agree that the best minhag to keep is a family tradition of mistaken pronunciation.   But you are of course free to choose to say whatever you want, even if you insist on Ashkenazic pronunciation error like so many others do.   Just don't mislead people into the idea that no rabbi on earth believes one should adopt proper pronunciation if he thinks one way is more correct than another.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yes, why would the Torah be read in Arabic? I don't know what Jewish communities would adopt such a language... Why not read it in Greek or Yiddish?

Ones who lived in Arabic speaking areas of the Middle east.   That of course includes Yemenites who lived in Yemen which is on the Arabian peninsula.     Why would one read it in Yiddish except that that is the vernacular spoken by Jews in a given place?   Well, same reason for Arabic.   People knew and understood at least one if not all 3 of these languages.... And especially in Teyman, they were probably fluent in all 3, if they were literate, otherwise probably knew and could speak 2 of the 3 at least....

[muman613]

Im sorry for saying "All Rabbis"... As always such a statement is an exaggeration. I meant to say that most Rabbis have said that keeping a family custom is important. The problem is that I enjoy davening with a minyan which sings some of the prayers, and if I was using this pronunciation it would be very distracting to others {I believe}. If this is the 'correct' pronunciation then some Rabbis should proclaim it as such and then the Jewish education system should be adapted to teach this correct pronunciation.

[Spectator]

It is true that Sepharadi pronunciation is most likely closer to the original Hebrew but this is true only regarding the consonants. As to vowels, Ashkenazi one is more diverse and I heard some rabbis say that it is more accurate in this aspect. It does make difference between "kamatz" {o} and "patach" {a}, "segol" {e} and "tzere" {ei}, etc. while in Sepahardi version the difference is almost lost. (In Teimani "segol" is pronounced like {a} though, but it is their specific thing and they have to prove it is correct not only to Ashkenazim but also to the other Oriental Jews  )

Regarding the Teimani pronunciation, with all due respect to it and the tradition it was taught, there are things that seem purely Arabic influence, like saying "jimmel" instead of "gimmel". No other version of Sepharadi Hebrew doesn't have such things while in Arabic "g" is always replaced with "j" (for example Arabs say "Jalil" instead of Hebrew "Galil" - Galilee).

I agree with Muman that most rabbis say that one should cling to the tradition of one's own fathers. It is really so. And Ashkenazi pronunciation, with all its variations(Ashkenazi proper, Lita'i and Chassidi), is not error, it is a legitimate variation (dialect if you wish) of Hebrew!   Another thing that sometimes Ashkenazi Jews pronounce Hebrew words incorrectly even according the Ashkenazi pronunciation (like saying "mItzvois" instead of "mitzvOis").

That tradition thing is very actual for those who were born in religious families and heard the pronunciation of their fathers from childhood. In case of those who returned to the Torah observance form non-religious families it is less relevant. (I am such person and though I'm Ashkenazi, I was taught modern Hebrew first - which is closer to the Sepharadi one - therefore I pray in Sepharadi pronunciation. One more reason is that Sepharadi was the custom of the Land of Israel (minhag Eretz Yisrael) and many Ashkenazim that came to Israel in past centuries adopted it too)

When Eliyahu ha-Navi returns, he will teach us the correct version of Hebrew. I am almost sure it will include elements from both Ashkenazi and Sepharadi pronunciations, and maybe something that was lost by both.

With that being said, when we speak Hebrew in Israel, we use the pronunciation close to the Sepharadi one. It is a norm of modern spoken Hebrew and even religious Ashkenazi Jews use it in evreyday speech (but not in prayers or Torah-specific items or concepts).

[Spectator]

The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.

It is highly subjective thing. I guess the reason you feel so is because you were born in Israel and all your life spoke and heard modern Hebrew - which is much closer to the Sepharadi pronunciation.

Regarding Yiddish, almost opposite is true: Yiddish is one of the dialects of Old German with some percentage of Hebrew words pronounced with German accent 

[Sefardic Panther]

Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?

In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.

Saadia Gaon said in his commentary on the Sefer Yetsirah that the Hebrew letter sounds are practically identical to the Arabic letter sounds. This is not surprising since both are after all Semitic languages unlike Yiddish.

Also it is obvious that the Ashkenazim only pronounce the Waw as an undotted Bet (V sound) because with germanic pronounciation all W sounds are pronounced with a V.

The Torah should not be read partially in Arabic, if that is what that video implies,

Yes, why would the Torah be read in Arabic? I don't know what Jewish communities would adopt such a language... Why not read it in Greek or Yiddish?

The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir. It was written by Saadia Gaon. I assume you are saying that the Torah should not be read in Arabic just because the Arabs are our enemy. Well likewise I could say to you that the Lashon HaQodesh should not be pronounced with a european accent because the europeans are far worse than the Arabs. Need I remind you that the europeans have sadistically tortured and murdered far far more Jews than the Arabs!!!!!

Anyway this is a more valid point since Saadia Gaon himself said Arabic (not Yidddish or Greek) is practically identical to Hebrew. The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture. Just listen to the Hebrew-Arabic songs of the many great Sefardic and Temani singers. They are by far the best singers in the world!!! Their music is music and if you heard it you would not be able to listen to any other type of music again.

[Spectator]

Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?

In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.

This is quite possible with Ashkenazi pronunciation too and Ashkenazi Jews successfully do it. Moreover, what is meant by prolonging the word "ehad"? You can prolong only the vowel ("kamatz" in this case), not the whole word. But according to the Ashkenazi pronunciation, kamatz is rendered as {o}, not {a}. So the prolonged word will sound as "eho-o-od". And as I said, there are good reasons to suppose that namely Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct when it comes to the vowels.

[Spectator]

The Torah should not be read partially in Arabic, if that is what that video implies,

Yes, why would the Torah be read in Arabic? I don't know what Jewish communities would adopt such a language... Why not read it in Greek or Yiddish?

The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir. It was written by Saadia Gaon. I assume you are saying that the Torah should not be read in Arabic just because the Arabs are our enemy. Well likewise I could say to you that the Lashon HaQodesh should not be pronounced with a european accent because the europeans are far worse than the Arabs. Need I remind you that the europeans have sadistically tortured and murdered far far more Jews than the Arabs!!!!!

Yes, the relations with the other peoples have nothing to do with the Hebrew pronunciation.

[Spectator]

The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir.

The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture.

Many Ashkenazi rabbis said that since the world center of Torah study was in Eastern Europe for many latest centuries, and the language Torah was taught to students there was Yiddish, the best language to teach and study Torah is Yiddish. Yiddish is a very rich language and when you translate some Torah lessons of great Sages of Ashkenaz to Hebrew, part of the meaning is lost.

[Spectator]

The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture. Just listen to the Hebrew-Arabic songs of the many great Sefardic and Temani singers. They are by far the best singers in the world!!! Their music is music and if you heard it you would not be able to listen to any other type of music again.

I listened to Hebrew-Arabic songs a lot. In particular, when I served in IDF I listened to Moroccan Jewish songs in the Moroccan dialect of Arabic. I must admit they are great songs and their tunes come over and over again to my mind. Nevertheless, I still like Ashkenazi songs and I can't say they are worse than those Sepharadi ones. It is impossible to say which is better, they are completely different and incomparable realms.

[Spectator]

I would add that arguing which pronunciation or culture in general is better, is highly counterproductive!

Ashkenazi one represents the experience Jews have acquired in the West.
Sepharadi one represents the experience Jews have acquired in the East.

No other people on the Earth has such great linguistic and cultural scope. It is a great wealth. We must thank G-d that we have learnt both these great realms without losing our identity and national unity.

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.

I agree 100% I am Ashkenazi but I learned to speak Hebrew the Israeli way and now that I am in Israel it makes it much easier for me.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If this is the 'correct' pronunciation then some Rabbis should proclaim it as such and then the Jewish education system should be adapted to teach this correct pronunciation.

Yes I agree.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?

In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.

This is quite possible with Ashkenazi pronunciation too and Ashkenazi Jews successfully do it. Moreover, what is meant by prolonging the word "ehad"? You can prolong only the vowel ("kamatz" in this case), not the whole word. But according to the Ashkenazi pronunciation, kamatz is rendered as {o}, not {a}. So the prolonged word will sound as "eho-o-od". And as I said, there are good reasons to suppose that namely Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct when it comes to the vowels.

The gemara says to prolong the DALETH, not the vowels.   The only way to prolong the daleth is if it does NOT sound like an english language "d"     And indeed, without the dagesh, it is not a "d" but rather a "dth"  like you would say at the beginning of a word like "THis"    Not to be confused with the aspirated "th" for a word like "thigh"      The daleth without dagesh is a hard sounding dth   which has an equivalent sound to a letter in the arabic alphabet

With the dagesh, daleth sounds like an english language "d" - Notice in your prayer book that in the Shema, the large daleth at the end has no dagesh (dot) in it.     You cannot extend a daleth with a dagesh in it (a d sound), it is not physically possible.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.

It is highly subjective thing. I guess the reason you feel so is because you were born in Israel and all your life spoke and heard modern Hebrew - which is much closer to the Sepharadi pronunciation.

Regarding Yiddish, almost opposite is true: Yiddish is one of the dialects of Old German with some percentage of Hebrew words pronounced with German accent 

If anything, the Israeli Hebrew sounds more like Yiddish than Sephardi dialect.   The only exception is the taw which is pronounced as a "T" instead of "s" like Ashkenazim say it.   Other than that, most letters sound European influenced.  The resh is completely butchered into something Russian/East European, the het was completely replaced and duplicated into a khaf even though Sephardim always pronounced het properly.... until they came to Israel that is.   As to the vowels, I don't find that Ashkenazi Jews are actually consistent about distinguishing between them, it is only in a few words it seems.   Even in davening, it's certain well known oft-repeated words that might have a stronger kamatz sound, but most don't.  (Yes, that's still more than Sephardim distinguish those vowel sounds).


I'm not sure what point you are making by saying the Ashkenazi pronunciation does the vowels better.   Didn't we already say in this thread that this is not a "competition" and that it does not matter who is better or worse?  Like I've said, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, both have had influence from the galut, but there is still only one ideal lashon hakodesh , even if it is some combination of 3 or 4 different dialects that have preserved different aspects of it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Also, even though I've used the same language as you here, I don't think it's accurate to call these "dialects" of Hebrew because they developed in the galut due to errors, and they were not local differences that sprouted organically in Eretz Yisrael where the language was spoken.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I would add that arguing which pronunciation or culture in general is better, is highly counterproductive!

Nobody here is arguing something is better or worse.  The point is what is correct.   Aspects from either side are correct and incorrect.

Ashkenazi one represents the experience Jews have acquired in the West.
Sepharadi one represents the experience Jews have acquired in the East.

Yes exactly, but prior to that "experience" before there was even such a thing as Ashkenazi and Sephardi, Jews spoke Hebrew, their national language, in our homeland.   And that that language was corrupted by "experience" in the east and west, is tragic, not something to be celebrated.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir.

The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture.

Many Ashkenazi rabbis said that since the world center of Torah study was in Eastern Europe for many latest centuries

That was their world center of Torah study, but there were other Jews in other parts of the world who also learned Torah.   I don't buy into the concept of European Torah superiority.