The next time you feel like God can't use you remember...............

[pennyjangle]

NOAH was a drunk.
ABRAHAM was too old.
ISAAC was a daydreamer.
JACOB was a liar.
JOSEPH was abused.
MOSES had a stuttering problem.
GIDEON was afraid.
SAMSON had long hair and was a womanizer!
RAHAB was a prostitute!
JEREMIAH and TIMOTHY were too young.
DAVID had an affair and was a murderer.
ELIJAH was suicidal.
ISAIAH preached naked.
JONAH ran from God.
NAOMI was a widow.
JOB went bankrupt.
JOHN the Baptist ate bugs.
PETER denied Christ.
The DISCIPLES fell asleep while praying.
MARTHA worried about everything.
The SAMARITAN WOMAN was divorced............more than once!
ZACCHEUS was too small.
PAUL was too religious.
TIMOTHY had an ulcer ...
LAZARUS WAS DEAD!

... No more excuses now.

[muman613]

That is not a very nice assesment of our forefathers... We cant even begin to pass judgment on them.

What Torah teaches is that everyone has issues which we must deal with... But to use those issues to put them down is not what the sages ever wanted us to do. I don't think that this list is good...

And how can anyone even begin to judge King David... While his problems are well known the sages have said that he did not sin...

Samson had long hair because he was raised a Nazarite and a Nazarite is not permitted to cut his hair...

Each and every one of those on the list was created with the situation in life... This is not a put down to them but the reason they were put here. Jacob did not lie... He was sold the birthright... Joseph was not abused, his brothers were jealous of him. Abraham was not too old, he had his son when it was the proper time. And Job was tested by Hashem and Satan... To say he went bankrupt is missing the whole point of Iyov.

[pennyjangle]

it goes to show you that we all fall short of God's glory, that is why God is God and man is man and we are to keep are eyes on God!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

That is not a very nice assesment of our forefathers... We cant even begin to pass judgment on them.

What Torah teaches is that everyone has issues which we must deal with... But to use those issues to put them down is not what the sages ever wanted us to do. I don't think that this list is good...

And how can anyone even begin to judge King David... While his problems are well known the sages have said that he did not sin...

Samson had long hair because he was raised a Nazarite and a Nazarite is not permitted to cut his hair...

Each and every one of those on the list was created with the situation in life... This is not a put down to them but the reason they were put here. Jacob did not lie... He was sold the birthright... Joseph was not abused, his brothers were jealous of him. Abraham was not too old, he had his son when it was the proper time. And Job was tested by Hashem and Satan... To say he went bankrupt is missing the whole point of Iyov.

Muman, Penny was seeking to illustrate that some of G-d's mightiest men were imperfect, some of them very much so. I know that she did not intend to offend anybody.

BTW the Jewish position on King David is that he asked G-d to send him the ultimate test of character, and He did, and David failed at it. As far as I am concerned that does count as sin.

[muman613]

it goes to show you that we all fall short of G-d's glory, that is why G-d is G-d and man is man and we are to keep are eyes on G-d!

True... That is basically what I was saying... I understand the intention of saying these things... But I hope that someone will learn why these great men had these problems...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

But I hope that someone will learn why these great men had these problems...

They were imperfect because every single human being is imperfect, and has the free will to choose to indulge or resist sin, and all humans choose to indulge sin at some point.

[muman613]

Bones,

Previously I have posted in another thread why the Jewish sages explain that David was not a sinner... He is one of our greatest Jewish kings which is one reason his family will always be the source of the Moshiach... Why would Hashem have the Moshiach come from the sons of David if he were a sinner?

[muman613]

But I hope that someone will learn why these great men had these problems...

They were imperfect because every single human being is imperfect, and has the free will to choose to indulge or resist sin, and all humans choose to indulge sin at some point.

Hashem called Noah the Tzadik of his Generation... Iyob was a man whos sin is hard to discern... Abraham and Moses were called Servants of Hashem... Obviously their human frailties are to be understood in light of their greatness. We learn that the greater a man becomes the greater his inclination toward sin becomes...

[pennyjangle]

My heart went out to Musha when he said " my prayers never work " Most people feel they are not good enough for God to bless them but God uses the weak for His glory. His power shows up best in the weak because self-righteous people don't need a God.

[muman613]

My heart went out to Musha when he said " my prayers never work " Most people feel they are not good enough for G-d to bless them but G-d uses the weak for His glory. His power shows up best in the weak because self-righteous people don't need a G-d.

Hello Pennyjangle,

I think you are expressing a basic Jewish idea from the Talmud... It is written that when a person is Arrogant there is no room for Hashem in the world. He cannot co-exist with a person who is arrogant.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/97543/jewish/Vayechi-A-Priest-in-G-ds-Sanctuary.htm

A man’s service easily leads to arrogance. It is a terrible pitfall. Look what a good davening I did today! I learned so much. I’m so holy. I daven , I learn, I do so many mitzvos. Arrogance is something that is very detestable to HaShem. Arrogance in Yiddishkeit is the worst of all negative traits. If a person is arrogant, there is no room for HaShem. HaShem says, “I cannot dwell together with an arrogant person.” It is much less likely that a woman will be arrogant. She just doesn’t have time to think about herself and how wonderful she is. People are constantly asking her to do things for them. So she is much less likely to regard herself as the holiest and the wisest. Her service is deeper and much more humble.

And also @ http://www.torah.org/learning/beyond-pshat/5763/vayeitzei.html

As the Gemara states Hashem says that there is not enough room in the world for Him and an arrogant person. Haughtiness drives away Hashem because the egoist is consumed with his own self worth and has little concern for anything else. Adultery is also similar to loshon hora because the adulterer justifies his behavior by believing that the married individual's partner is valueless and therefore almost non-existent. Where does the undermining of human value begin which ultimately can led to murder, adultery and idol worship? The answer is loshon hora. Yaakov understood that the destructive cycle does not begin with murder but rather with loshon hora. Yaakov understood the subtle influences of loshon hora and this is why he asks Hashem to protect him from evil speech.

The Talmud which discusses this is Sotah 5a...
http://www.yutorah.org/daf.cfm/6020/Sotah/5/a

[Dr. Dan]

Bones,

Previously I have posted in another thread why the Jewish sages explain that David was not a sinner... He is one of our greatest Jewish kings which is one reason his family will always be the source of the Moshiach... Why would Hashem have the Moshiach come from the sons of David if he were a sinner?

you say that King David was ONE of our greatest kings...then who was the greatest (human) king?

[muman613]

Bones,

Previously I have posted in another thread why the Jewish sages explain that David was not a sinner... He is one of our greatest Jewish kings which is one reason his family will always be the source of the Moshiach... Why would Hashem have the Moshiach come from the sons of David if he were a sinner?

you say that King David was ONE of our greatest kings...then who was the greatest (human) king?

I think this is a trick question. I love King David, and my hebrew name is Michael Ben David. He was a great one, he wrote the Psalms and his life was tragic and yet he was beloved by Hashem. Yet he was not permitted to build the Holy Beit HaMikdash... Between David HaMelech and Shlomo HaMelech it is difficult to name the greatest. Each has his strengths and also has his weakness.

According to Aish.com's article Solomon was considered one of the greatest kings of the Jewish people.

http://www.aish.com/jl/h/48937102.html
One of the greatest leaders of the Jewish people, a man on his spiritual level -- who wrote the Song of Songs, the Book of Ecclesiastes, and the Book of Proverbs -- must be suffering eternal pain in heaven knowing what has been written about him in the Bible.4

I hope that the descendant of David is sent soon so that we can once again bring Hashems Shechina into the world at the site of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem.

BTW: I listened to the Sotah 5a lecture and it contains a lot of great wisdom which is relevant to this conversation. I am looking for a transcript of it...

מיכאל בן דוד

[pennyjangle]

Muman613,
 I agree with you about king David and his Psalms are beautiful, I sing and dance before the Lord! I even have a star of David necklace. God is a Spirit and if you yield to Him we are His hands, His feet.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Bones,

Previously I have posted in another thread why the Jewish sages explain that David was not a sinner... He is one of our greatest Jewish kings which is one reason his family will always be the source of the Moshiach... Why would Hashem have the Moshiach come from the sons of David if he were a sinner?

Can you explain using Jewish scripture the means by which a mortal human being can be without sin?

To my background and upbringing, that seems an awful lot like blasphemy.

[muman613]

Bones,

Previously I have posted in another thread why the Jewish sages explain that David was not a sinner... He is one of our greatest Jewish kings which is one reason his family will always be the source of the Moshiach... Why would Hashem have the Moshiach come from the sons of David if he were a sinner?

Can you explain using Jewish scripture the means by which a mortal human being can be without sin?

To my background and upbringing, that seems an awful lot like blasphemy.

I am not saying that he was not without sin... I am saying that he is not guilty of murder nor adultery. Nor was King Solomon an Idolator... As I said earlier, every great man in Jewish scripture has his weakness and flaw... That is a good thing...

There is only one religion which believes that it's leader was free of sin... contrary to Jewish beliefs.


BTW, could you name for me the sin which Moses committed which is why he was not permitted to enter the land of Israel?

EDIT: The Jewish position on Christianity is clear.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Muman, I understand that Judaism does not agree with Christian theology but just for the record, Christians do not define Jesus as a human being, but rather G-d in human form, so there is not a real analogy between him and David or Moses. The Jewish position on David is that he became such an outstanding and rare tzaddik that he asked G-d to send him the ultimate test of character, that he would be able to prove himself by passing this ultimate test. He was not able to pass that test. I'm not sure what one would call this exercise (pride?), but either way, he did not meet it. He certainly is guilty of sin, as he acknowledged such to the prophet Nathan with no pretense.

I do not think that King David's transgression, as severe as it was, makes him even less of a great or holy man--in fact, I relate to him a lot more knowing that he stumbled badly (and repented of it, and was forgiven) than I would have if he had been sinless or nearly so.

As for Moses' sin, if I understand correctly from church commentaries and what Chaim has said, he lost his temper and cool with the Israelite people he was the shepherd of.

[~Hanna~]

Yes, there was anaology between Him and at least David. The Tanach scriptures say he was to be from the line of David, the tribe of Judah. There is at least one right there. Also, if you are going to be speaking for all Christians about theology, you should provide scripture or show where you got that from. He prayed to His Father in heaven, He came from His father in heaven, yet they were one. Another paradox, I know.

Muman, I understand that Judaism does not agree with Christian theology but just for the record, Christians do not define Jesus as a human being, but rather G-d in human form, so there is not a real analogy between him and David or Moses. The Jewish position on David is that he became such an outstanding and rare tzaddik that he asked G-d to send him the ultimate test of character, that he would be able to prove himself by passing this ultimate test. He was not able to pass that test. I'm not sure what one would call this exercise (pride?), but either way, he did not meet it. He certainly is guilty of sin, as he acknowledged such to the prophet Nathan with no pretense.

I do not think that King David's transgression, as severe as it was, makes him even less of a great or holy man--in fact, I relate to him a lot more knowing that he stumbled badly (and repented of it, and was forgiven) than I would have if he had been sinless or nearly so.

As for Moses' sin, if I understand correctly from church commentaries and what Chaim has said, he lost his temper and cool with the Israelite people he was the shepherd of.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yes, there was anaology between Him and at least David. The Tanach scriptures say he was to be from the line of David, the tribe of Judah. There is at least one right there. Also, if you are going to be speaking for all Christians about theology, you should provide scripture or show where you got that from. He prayed to His Father in heaven, He came from His father in heaven, yet they were one. Another paradox, I know.

Yes, I know where Jesus was descended from, but I did not want to look like I am missionizing.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

However, it is possible to sin and not be considered a sinner overall:

1 Kings 15:5
5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life—except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

I know what you mean; despite his severe transgressions at one point overwhelmingly David was a righteous man. But in actuality, every single human being is a sinner--righteous or evil.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Without the Talmud, it is impossible to understand many parts of the Tanach (the Bible).

In the Talmud, we learn that Uriah the Hittite was part of a group which was conspiring to murder King David and stage a coup. Therefore David was fully justified in what he did to Uriah and his fellow conspirators. David did not sin against Uriah, and David was not guilty of murder, G-d forbid.

David also was not guilty of adultery. In Torah Judaism, adultery occurs only when both sexual partners are married. Bat Sheva was not married to Uriah. Because all married men automatically gave a temporary "get" (divorce) to their spouses before they went out to battle. This way if the man was missing or captured for years, his wife would not be agunah ("chained" to her missing husband and unable to remarry). So Bat Sheva and Uriah got a temporary divorce before the battle as was the custom with all men going out to battle in ancient Israel.

David's sole sin was that he had an affair with a woman whom he was not married to.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Thank you very much for the explanation about King David, Chaim. He committed adultery in the commonplace Western definition. That is what I meant.

[~Hanna~]

ok.

Yes, there was anaology between Him and at least David. The Tanach scriptures say he was to be from the line of David, the tribe of Judah. There is at least one right there. Also, if you are going to be speaking for all Christians about theology, you should provide scripture or show where you got that from. He prayed to His Father in heaven, He came from His father in heaven, yet they were one. Another paradox, I know.

Yes, I know where Jesus was descended from, but I did not want to look like I am missionizing.

[Debbie Shafer]

All of us are sinners and imperfect, but we should all remember to pull the stick out of our own eye, and see if we can do more to make lives better.

[~Hanna~]

Very true...

All of us are sinners and imperfect, but we should all remember to pull the stick out of our own eye, and see if we can do more to make lives better.