Author Topic: question about debating other religions  (Read 5080 times)

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2009, 04:03:53 PM »
Yes.

I was posting to show that even Christians have been persecuted. I am not sure what you are getting at.

I have much respect for the Jewish faith. People went to concentration camps for hiding the Jews during the holocaust. They were not fighting amongst each other at all, they managed to agree on the things they agreed with ...and let G-d be G-d. 

 I was responding to madmarv.  I did not take issue with what you wrote (although I'm not an expert on that aspect of history you were discussing).


Offline Madmarv

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2009, 04:19:41 PM »
Alright then, you are right, we do disagree on this one :) so let's move on
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Offline ~Hanna~

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2009, 04:24:55 PM »
 :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:
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Offline Hyades

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2009, 05:39:38 PM »
And if I consider worshipping and throwing down to a black stone in Mecca as avoda zara, I have all rights to see it that way. For me it is avoda zara also. And the Muslims do not pray the same G-d we pray to. The quranic description, and allahs commandments (if called so) are clearly contradictory to our Torah. Thus he cannot be our Hashem! Thus all prayer done in a mosque is avoda zara also. At least for me. I do respect our rabbinical authorities, but this doesn't mean that their opinion is 100% right on some issues. Mosques and islam have not existed in Biblical times. So we have no clear prescription from the Torah and thus no 100% sure opinion about it.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2009, 06:08:33 PM »
It seems to be subject to dispute.

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/print.asp?id=2625

Quote from: Yeshiva.org
Entering a Moslem mosque is subject to dispute.
The Tzitz Eliezer (14, 91) prohibits like any other idol worshiping place and most other opinions allow (Yabia Omer 7 YD 12)
For the other religions, I don't know what they believe in or how their temples operate but I assume they are also a form of idol worshiping and as such, entry to their temples is strictly prohibited.

I do believe, though, that Jews are allowed to pretend to convert to Islam to save their lives (but not Christianity). Chaim has said that.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2009, 06:19:15 PM »
It seems to be subject to dispute.

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/print.asp?id=2625

Quote from: Yeshiva.org
Entering a Moslem mosque is subject to dispute.
The Tzitz Eliezer (14, 91) prohibits like any other idol worshiping place and most other opinions allow (Yabia Omer 7 YD 12)
For the other religions, I don't know what they believe in or how their temples operate but I assume they are also a form of idol worshiping and as such, entry to their temples is strictly prohibited.


Very interesting post, I did not know that opinion existed.  It may be that European-based scholars came down more strongly on muslamic religion than did the Middle-east/north africa based scholars such as Rambam.

Quote
I do believe, though, that Jews are allowed to pretend to convert to Islam to save their lives (but not Christianity). Chaim has said that.

That's true, but the likely source of that opinion Chaim cites (Rambam) is also of the opinion that Islam is NOT avoda zara.    Anyway, good points.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2009, 06:24:52 PM »
Very interesting post, I did not know that opinion existed.  It may be that European-based scholars came down more strongly on muslamic religion than did the Middle-east/north africa based scholars such as Rambam.
What did the Vilna Gaon, source of most of HaRav Kahane's theology and by extension Chaim's, say about this?

Quote
That's true, but the likely source of that opinion Chaim cites (Rambam) is also of the opinion that Islam is NOT avoda zara.    Anyway, good points.
Throughout the Middle Ages, Christianity was more anti-Semitic than Islam. There wasn't a whole lot of Christian Zionism back then. The Islamic world tolerated Jews as dhimmis at many times in this period because they wanted Jews to enrich their kingdoms and contribute their great expertise in technical, legal, and educational areas. Could it be that this explains why Jewish scholars living in Islamic lands would be more tolerant of Islam than those living outside of them?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2009, 06:44:23 PM »
Very interesting post, I did not know that opinion existed.  It may be that European-based scholars came down more strongly on muslamic religion than did the Middle-east/north africa based scholars such as Rambam.
What did the Vilna Gaon, source of most of HaRav Kahane's theology and by extension Chaim's, say about this?

Again, I've posted about this before, but the Vilna Gaon is not the primary source of Rabbi Kahane, and he selected from a variety of sources in his writings.  There are certain haredim who are claiming to base themselves entirely on the halachic approach of the Gaon, and their hashkafa is far from Rabbi Kahane's.  But I think that is because Rav Kahane was not a 'primarily' anything rabbi, but drew from all areas of truth.  His opinions on warfare and running a Jewish state were undoubtedly predominantly based on Rambam, who was one of the few Jewish sages who even wrote on such subjects in any detail.   But he did of course draw from Vilna Gaon, because how could one not do so! 

A good question though, and I cannot find anything at the moment.   I did see something interesting, but sort of tangential.  It does imply that Vilna Gaon did not believe the Muslim belief in Allah was pagan or non-monotheistic belief.  But I hesitate to quote it.  It is a secondary account of a student in the name of the Gaon, and it is also a tangentially related case.   However it is a prominant student who became a big authority himself.  In such cases it is assumed he is authentically making a claim in his rabbi's name.  He would not falsify that, and otherwise he could simply claim it in his own name.

Quote
Quote
That's true, but the likely source of that opinion Chaim cites (Rambam) is also of the opinion that Islam is NOT avoda zara.    Anyway, good points.
Throughout the Middle Ages, Christianity was more anti-Semitic than Islam. There wasn't a whole lot of Christian Zionism back then. The Islamic world tolerated Jews as dhimmis at many times in this period because they wanted Jews to enrich their kingdoms and contribute their great expertise in technical, legal, and educational areas. Could it be that this explains why Jewish scholars living in Islamic lands would be more tolerant of Islam than those living outside of them?

It might be for some, but not in the case of Rambam.   He based his opinion on his conception of pure monotheism (he was unique in Judaism in some of his views here), and that Islam also fit the bill of said monotheism despite being evil and a heretical faith for a Jew.   And of course he does assert that Islam is complete falsehood, forbidden to adopt and other such statements.   He refers to Muhammad as the madman.   

But I do accept the idea in general that the environment/treatment can influence the opinions on the surrounding group in question.   It will influence how we will be instructed to interact with such groups in many complicated halachot, no doubt.

Rambam however, had no misconceptions about the treatment of Jews by Islam.   He and his family personally experienced the persecution of Islam and fled his home country, and he consoled those Jews of areas in North Africa and in Yemen who were put to the sword of Islam and faced massive forced conversion attacks.   They sent Rambam letters appealing for halachic guidance amidst their turmoil.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2009, 06:51:50 PM »
בס"ד

I might add the tower of every mosque with the crescent on top of it is a typical sign of Avodah Zara, Bernard Louis has already stated that that symbolizes what is mentioned in the Tanach as "Tzalmei Zachar" with a sign of Avodah Zara on top it, and Islam as a religion is Avodah Zara since it's Kffira in Toraht Moshe.

Offline AsheDina

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2009, 07:28:07 PM »
אַל־תַּשְׁלִיכֵ֥נִי מִלְּפָנֶ֑יךָ וְר֥וּחַ קָ֝דְשְׁךָ֗ אַל־תִּקַּ֥ח מִמֶּֽנִּי׃

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Offline Hyades

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2009, 05:13:46 AM »
It seems to be subject to dispute.

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/print.asp?id=2625

Quote from: Yeshiva.org
Entering a Moslem mosque is subject to dispute.
The Tzitz Eliezer (14, 91) prohibits like any other idol worshiping place and most other opinions allow (Yabia Omer 7 YD 12)
For the other religions, I don't know what they believe in or how their temples operate but I assume they are also a form of idol worshiping and as such, entry to their temples is strictly prohibited.

I do believe, though, that Jews are allowed to pretend to convert to Islam to save their lives (but not Christianity). Chaim has said that.

WHAT? Denying Hashem in order to survive?! NEVER, then I'd prefer to die. Honestly!

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2009, 05:49:12 AM »
בס"ד

I might add the tower of every mosque with the crescent on top of it is a typical sign of Avodah Zara, Bernard Louis has already stated that that symbolizes what is mentioned in the Tanach as "Tzalmei Zachar" with a sign of Avodah Zara on top it, and Islam as a religion is Avodah Zara since it's Kffira in Toraht Moshe.

Kefira and avoda zara are not the same things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2009, 05:50:49 AM »
It seems to be subject to dispute.

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/print.asp?id=2625

Quote from: Yeshiva.org
Entering a Moslem mosque is subject to dispute.
The Tzitz Eliezer (14, 91) prohibits like any other idol worshiping place and most other opinions allow (Yabia Omer 7 YD 12)
For the other religions, I don't know what they believe in or how their temples operate but I assume they are also a form of idol worshiping and as such, entry to their temples is strictly prohibited.

I do believe, though, that Jews are allowed to pretend to convert to Islam to save their lives (but not Christianity). Chaim has said that.

WHAT? Denying Hashem in order to survive?! NEVER, then I'd prefer to die. Honestly!

Doing so was NOT the equivalent of denying Hashem.   To the Muslims, the God was the same.   They were forcing people to accept their false "prophet."    To say a meaningless formula that one doesn't actually believe, was according to Rambam not only completely permitted to save one's life, but also has no halachic ramifications by doing so.   It was NOT a denial of God to do so.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2009, 05:53:54 AM »
Christians are not permitted to deny our religion under any circumstances, although we may remain silent when asked. We all hope we will have more strength than Peter though if put to the test. I hope I'm never tested in that way.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2009, 07:00:10 AM »
בס"ד

בס"ד

I might add the tower of every mosque with the crescent on top of it is a typical sign of Avodah Zara, Bernard Louis has already stated that that symbolizes what is mentioned in the Tanach as "Tzalmei Zachar" with a sign of Avodah Zara on top it, and Islam as a religion is Avodah Zara since it's Kffira in Toraht Moshe.

Kefira and avoda zara are not the same things.

http://www.kipa.co.il/ask/show/34823
1.) For A Jew, it is Avodah Zara, any religious belief besides Judaism is Avodah Zara for a Jew.
2.) Islam shares too much with Paganism, and "Allah" is the name of the Babylonian mythological idol, also the crescent as a symbol of Islam and that same that is on top of the mosque is a symbol of idolatry.

Offline Madmarv

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2009, 07:09:26 AM »
בס"ד

בס"ד

I might add the tower of every mosque with the crescent on top of it is a typical sign of Avodah Zara, Bernard Louis has already stated that that symbolizes what is mentioned in the Tanach as "Tzalmei Zachar" with a sign of Avodah Zara on top it, and Islam as a religion is Avodah Zara since it's Kffira in Toraht Moshe.

Kefira and avoda zara are not the same things.

http://www.kipa.co.il/ask/show/34823
1.) For A Jew, it is Avodah Zara, any religious belief besides Judaism is Avodah Zara for a Jew.
2.) Islam shares too much with Paganism, and "Allah" is the name of the Babylonian mythological idol, also the crescent as a symbol of Islam and that same that is on top of the mosque is a symbol of idolatry.

True.
These are facts denied by muslims today, to avoid questioning the bond and the relationship with the pagans throughout the history.
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Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2009, 07:16:02 AM »
בס"ד

KWRBT, if you are able to read Hebrew, then I recommend you to read this discussion about the issue.
http://www.myehudit.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1075&p=4754#p4754

Offline syyuge

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2009, 07:47:50 AM »
A single muslamic in the crowd of infidels says that: G_d is one called with different names.

5% muslamics among the crowd of infidels say that  G_d is one called with different names such as Allah.

10% muslamics among the crowd of infidels say that  G_d is one, also called as Allah.

15% muslamics among the crowd of infidels say that  G_d is one and is called as Allah.

20% muslamics among the crowd of infidels say that Allah is one and is called as Allah.

25% muslamics among the crowd of infidels say that the Allah only is the only Allah.

Clearly it is a replacement theology, wherein they attempt to gradually replace the concept of G_d with Allah. It must be an antithesis to all and may not be comparable to any theological concept.

I consider them to be cruel, separatist and hardliner pagan.
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Offline ~Hanna~

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2009, 09:18:22 AM »
Same here....

It seems to be subject to dispute.

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/print.asp?id=2625

Quote from: Yeshiva.org
Entering a Moslem mosque is subject to dispute.
The Tzitz Eliezer (14, 91) prohibits like any other idol worshiping place and most other opinions allow (Yabia Omer 7 YD 12)
For the other religions, I don't know what they believe in or how their temples operate but I assume they are also a form of idol worshiping and as such, entry to their temples is strictly prohibited.

I do believe, though, that Jews are allowed to pretend to convert to Islam to save their lives (but not Christianity). Chaim has said that.

WHAT? Denying Hashem in order to survive?! NEVER, then I'd prefer to die. Honestly!
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2009, 01:55:08 PM »
בס"ד

בס"ד

I might add the tower of every mosque with the crescent on top of it is a typical sign of Avodah Zara, Bernard Louis has already stated that that symbolizes what is mentioned in the Tanach as "Tzalmei Zachar" with a sign of Avodah Zara on top it, and Islam as a religion is Avodah Zara since it's Kffira in Toraht Moshe.

Kefira and avoda zara are not the same things.

http://www.kipa.co.il/ask/show/34823
1.) For A Jew, it is Avodah Zara, any religious belief besides Judaism is Avodah Zara for a Jew.
2.) Islam shares too much with Paganism, and "Allah" is the name of the Babylonian mythological idol, also the crescent as a symbol of Islam and that same that is on top of the mosque is a symbol of idolatry.

Like I said, kefira and avoda zara are not the same things.

As to the rest of what you write, Rambam disagrees with you.    The people who "converted" to save their lives did not REALLY practice Islam.   They did not really believe the meaningless formula they said.  As such, they did not practice kefira OR avoda zara.   And according to Rambam's conception of monotheism, no, Islam was not avoda zara.

Offline briann

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2009, 03:08:56 PM »
My two cents.

You can argue debate about Islam as much as you want, just as you could do the same with Satanism, or Communism, or Naziism.   Islam is NOT a valid religion, it is an ideology of hate and world domination... so debate away!!!!


Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: question about debating other religions
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2009, 04:24:08 PM »
My two cents.

You can argue debate about Islam as much as you want, just as you could do the same with Satanism, or Communism, or Naziism.   Islam is NOT a valid religion, it is an ideology of hate and world domination... so debate away!!!!



Did I say it was "valid" ?  No.  But that does not make it avoda zara.   When people argue halachic principles they cannot be so vague as to just label something "I don't like" as whatever label they want.    None of us here likes Islam, nor does any of us consider Muhammad anything more than a lying pedophile.   So what?