Serbs in Turkey

[Spectator]

SRP, I always enjoy reading your posts, even if I don't agree with them. I only want to ask you one thing. Please not only put forward facts and your opinions but also try to answer the counter arguments posted by the other members. I notice that you always avoid hard questions. If you want that the others consider you seriously and not as a propaganda machine, you must at least try to answer them.

Vujo told you:

Let me tell you something, in 1878. during the II Serbo-Turkish war, our army and Chetnik units drove out more than 70000 Albanians and muslims from southern Serbia which we liberated. In those days, the European powers complained about it, and also our "bleeding hearts" in Serbia like yourself. They said it's not civilized and moral, just like you told me.

What is your opinion on that? Is it true? Are there other facts that should be mentioned in relation to it? Was it justified? Can it be called "ethnic cleansing"? You cannot continue your point about Serbian-Muslim alliance without answering these questions.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Spectator

If somebody calles me this and that, than I will aviod such person.

[Spectator]

Spectator

If somebody calles me this and that, than I will aviod such person.

Well maybe he exaggerated a bit. You used to call him names too in the past. I hope you both will make peace.

But now I ask you the same question, about those events of 1878. What is your opinion?

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Spectator,

Is not that I am advocating a some kind of Serbian-Islamic alliance.
I want to have normal relations with Muslims, who do not have anything against Serbs. Just like I want to have normal relations with Jews who support Serbia, the same counts for others. If Jews or Muslims reject Serbophobia, than I am prepared to talk to them. The same counts for Croats and others.
If Croats condemn Serbophobia, than we can have a conversation.
I want to convince people to reject Serbophobia.

What is your opinion on that? Is it true? Are there other facts that should be mentioned in relation to it? Was it justified? Can it be called "ethnic cleansing"? You cannot continue your point about Serbian-Muslim alliance without answering these questions.

It is true that after the collapse of the Ottomanic Empire which also occupied Serbian territories, many Muslims left the Balkans. That is a fact and I recognize that. I do not agree with Voojoo who spreads Western-propaganda, calming that Serbs are guilty for the fact that also many civilian Muslims left the Balkans after the Balkan wars.

Everybody knows that the Turkish authorities were the occupying forces of the Balkans. Turks arrived to the Balkans, by using violence and aggression.
The Serbs did not arrive to Turkish territory, but Turks arrived to Serbian national territory. The Serbs fought on their own territories and they were fighting against Turkish occupying forces and not against some kind of civilians.
When the Serbs overpowered, with help from Russia, the Turkish occupying forces, the Turkish authorities started to withdraw towards the lands of origin.
The Serbian rebellion caused the withdraw of Turks from the Balkan towards their land of origin, but that was a consequence of the Turkish oppression and occupation over Serbian territories.

This does not prove that Serbs cleansed Muslim civilians during the Serbian rebellion against the occupying forces. The Turkish army and authorities started to withdraw to their land of origin, after the Serbs liberated their territories.
The families of the occupying forces did not want to stay on the Balkans after the collapse of the Ottomanic Empire. The Serbs could not force the families of the Turkish authorities to remain in Serbia, during the withdrawing of the Turskih army.

Those Muslims who did not want to leave Serbia, after the liberation, were not cleansed by Serbs. These Muslims still live in Serbia and their human rights have always been guaranteed by Serbian authorities.  

Serbs are not responsible for the fact that some Muslim families did not want to live on the Balkans after the Turkish authorities have been expelled.
It is logical that Turkish/Muslim families of the  members of the Turkish authorities did not want to stay in Serba, after the expelling of the Turkish authorities [occupying forces].

[Spectator]

I want to have normal relations with Muslims, who do not have anything against Serbs. Just like I want to have normal relations with Jews who support Serbia, the same counts for others. If Jews or Muslims reject Serbophobia, than I am prepared to talk to them. The same counts for Croats and others.
If Croats condemn Serbophobia, than we can have a conversation.
I want to convince people to reject Serbophobio.

This is a normal nationalistic approach. I understand it.

[Spectator]

Serbs are not responsible for the fact that some Muslim families did not want to live on the Balkans after the Turkish authorities have been expelled.
It is logical that Turkish/Muslim families of the  members of the Turkish authorities did not want to stay in Serba, after the expelling of the Turkish authorities [occupying forces].

In other words you want to say that the overwhelming majority of Muslims who left Serbia together with the Turks were not expelled by force but left because they didn't want to tolerate the fact that the Serbs restored their rights in Serbia? And those who agreed with it stayed and their personal rights are respected? Did I understand you right?

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

In other words you want to say that the overwhelming majority of Muslims who left Serbia together with the Turks were not expelled by force but left because they didn't want to tolerate the fact that the Serbs restored their rights in Serbia? And those who agreed with it stayed and their personal rights are respected? Did I understand you right?

Correct.

The overwhelming majority of the Turkish Muslims decided to leave Serbia and Bosnia, because they wanted to live in Turkey and not in Serbia. That's correct.

Among those Turkish Muslims you had also converted ex-Serbs who also left Serbia, together with the Turks. But some Muslim Serbs [converts] accepted the Serbian authority and they remained in Serbia, after the withdraw of the Turkish occupying forces.

Who wanted to say in liberated Serbia was not not prosecuted by the Serbian authorities. The Muslims who wanted to stay in Serbia were respected and not prosecuted. Those who did not want to accept the collapse of the Turkish Empire, which was a colonial Empire, left Serbia and went to Turkey.

The Serbs did not use ethnic cleansing or genocide in order to liberate Serbia and end the Turkish oppression. That's is Western-propaganda.

[Spectator]

Ok. Vujo also said:  "In those days, the European powers complained about it, and also our "bleeding hearts" in Serbia".

I can believe that European powers probably lied about Serbs, as they did before and after that. But why there were Serbs whose hearts "bled" about the departure of the Muslims? If the Muslims left by their own will, why worry?

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

I can believe that European powers probably lied about Serbs, as they did before and after that.

Voojoo said that our forefather carried out ethnic cleansing during liberation of Serbia. That is a Wester lie!

But why there were Serbs whose hearts "bled" about the departure of the Muslims? If the Muslims left by their own will, why worry?

Who said that the Serbs hearts bled? ? ? ?
Serbs wanted to liberate Serbia, that's all!
Serbs were happy that the Turkish oppressors left the Balkans!

It was a legitimate action.

[Spectator]

Who said that the Serbs hearts bled? ? ? ?
Serbs wanted to liberate Serbia, that's all!
Serbs were happy that the Turkish oppressors left the Balkans!

It was a legitimate action.

Don't worry, I certainly understand the liberation of Serbia was legitimate. The Serbs liberated their land from foreign rule, that is legitimate. Any normal person will rejoice when his land is liberated.

But Vujo said that there were some Serbs who complained about the way how the Muslims had to leave, and they called it "immoral and uncivilized". 

Let me tell you something, in 1878. during the II Serbo-Turkish war, our army and Chetnik units drove out more than 70000 Albanians and muslims from southern Serbia which we liberated. In those days, the European powers complained about it, and also our "bleeding hearts" in Serbia like yourself. They said it's not civilized and moral, just like you told me.

Who were these people? And why did they say so?

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Who were these people? And why did they say so?

I do not think that these people existed. Vojoo is propably making something up.
I never heard that ridiculous claim before, which Vojoo is claiming !!
This is the first time that I hear something funny like that.

Muslims wo accepted the new Serbian rule were not forced to leave.
Why would Serbs cry for the departure of Turks and others who did not want to recognize the fall of the Turkish colonial Empire?

[Spectator]

Who were these people? And why did they say so?

I do not think that these people existed. Vojoo is propably making something up.
I never heard that ridiculous claim before, which Vojoo is claiming !!
This is the first time that I hear something funny like that.

Muslims wo accepted the new Serbian rule were not forced to leave.
Why would Serbs cry for the departure of Turks and others who did not want to recognize the fall of the Turkish colonial Empire?

I don't think Vujo would make something up, he is a serious person and Serbian patriot. I suppose you and he have different interpretation of the same historical event. Well, I have to go, thank you for explanations

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Serbs will agree that libaration of Serbia was achived with ethnic cleansing.
I reject that interpretation of Vojoo. Thats a false interpretation.

[voo-yo]

Hello Levi. Another day of educating ignoramuses like SRP, huh?
So I see his latest "brilliant" theory is that they left voluntarily. They couldn't look at Serbs as equals, and they yearned for the splendid architecture of Turkey, so they left. Levi, if you're not laughing, I congratulate you. I would like SRP to explain why haven't then muslims and Albanians left Serbia after the 1912. war.
Well, here is the list of those bleeding hearts:
General Jovan Belimarkovic opposed the deportation and offered his resignation to the government over this issue and
journalist Manojlo Djordjevic also condemned these policies and argued that Serbia should have pursued a policy of peaceful reconciliation towards the Albanians:
In Toplica the Albanians were encountered, and we had nothing more important to do but to expel these warlike, but hard-working people from
their homes. Instead of making a peace with them as the defeated side – they were without any good reason pushed across the border – so that they’ll settle on the other side as the enemies of everything Serbian, to become the avengers towards those who pushed them from their homes.
Despite some voices of dissent, the Serbian regime ‘encouraged’ about 71,000 Muslims, including 49,000 Albanians, ‘to leave’. The regime then gradually settled Serbs and Montenegrins in these territories. Prior to 1878, the Serbs comprised not more than one half of the population of Nis, the largest city in the region; by 1884 the Serbian share rose to 80 per cent. According to Ottoman sources, Serbian forces also destroyed mosques in Leskovac, Prokuplje, and Vranje. 
The ‘cleansing’ of Toplica and Kosanica would have long-term negative effects on Serbian-Albanian relations. The Albanians expelled from these regions moved over the new border to Kosovo, where the Ottoman authorities forced the Serb population out of the border region and settled the refugees there. Janjicije Popovic, a Kosovo Serb community leader in the period prior to the Balkan Wars, noted that after the 1876–8 wars, the hatred of the Turks and Albanians towards the Serbs ‘tripled’.A number of Albanian refugees from Toplica region, radicalized by their experience, engaged in retaliatory violence against the Serbian minority in Kosovo.In 1900 Zivojin Peric´, a Belgrade Professor of Law, noted that in retrospect, ‘this unbearable situation probably would not have occurred had the Serbian government allowed Albanians to stay in Serbia’. He also argued that conciliatory treatment towards Albanians in Serbia could have helped the Serbian government to gain the sympathies of Albanians of the Ottoman Empire.
You can also read on the internet about social-democratic traitors like Dimitrije Tucovic, Svetozar Markovic and what they were saying about Serbian-Albanian relations.

[voo-yo]

I would also like to add, that our government had a plan of expelling the Albanians from Kosovo to Turkey (see Vaso Cubrilovic), but unfortunately the II Second World War stoped it. For example, our Nobel prize winner, Ivo Andric was also working on that.
The plan was very much like Rav Kahane's plan, with compensation and all that.

[Mehmetce]

SRP,the fact that you don't understand,people who are at this forum are extremely muslim haters and don't refer to them as human beings.
Even if you say the bible tells to people to not kill or lie to other people without considering if he/she is your religious brother but generally all mankind,then they would say ; Muslims are not even human beings.So what's the point of not killing,slaying,raping or nuking them?
You think you've come to a democratic forum,yes you did.This is a democtratic place but you can't change anybody's mind here regarding muslims or Islam.They even get excited or enjoyed when a muslim family's underage baby killed by somehow,saying ; One less muslim from this world :S
Therefore I don't think this is a forum for you.   

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Mehmetce

Komsi, Komsi 

Are you my komsi or not? You know what komsi means?

I just want to convince these people, that Serbian nationalism does not support hate towards people of the Islamic religion. If people of the Islamic religion do not support Serbophobia, than these Muslims have my honnest respect!

[Mehmetce]

Mehmetce

Komsi, Komsi 

Are you my komsi or not? You know what komsi means?

I just want to convince these people, that Serbian nationalism does not support hate towards people of the Islamic religion. If people of the Islamic religion do not support Serbophobia, than these Muslims have my honnest respect!

You mean Komşu ? Neighbour ?

[Spectator]

Vujo, thank you for educating me of these very interesting facts. I wonder, what SRP will reply to them. I suppose he will say you made it all up, including names

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Yes Komsija: neighbour!
We are komsijas, are not we  

[voo-yo]

SRP,the fact that you don't understand,people who are at this forum are extremely muslim haters and don't refer to them as human beings.
Even if you say the bible tells to people to not kill or lie to other people without considering if he/she is your religious brother but generally all mankind,then they would say ; Muslims are not even human beings.So what's the point of not killing,slaying,raping or nuking them?
You think you've come to a democratic forum,yes you did.This is a democtratic place but you can't change anybody's mind here regarding muslims or Islam.They even get excited or enjoyed when a muslim family's underage baby killed by somehow,saying ; One less muslim from this world :S
Therefore I don't think this is a forum for you.   

This is what your people did to mine. Don't twist the facts, it wasn't Serbia which invaded Turkey, it was the other way round. We have every right to remove your spawn from our land, who uses every opportunity to try subjecting us to another 500 years of slavery and darkness.

[Spectator]

SRP,the fact that you don't understand,people who are at this forum are extremely muslim haters and don't refer to them as human beings.

There is no need to generalize. Even if somebody says extreme and untrue things, there is no need to transfer such views to everybody here. If you don't hate me, I don't hate you. If you refer to me as human being, I will refer to you so too. We condemn people here not for what they are but for what they do. So don't spread lies, please.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Vujo, thank you for educating me of these very interesting facts. I wonder, what SRP will reply to them. I suppose he will say you made it all up, including names

Why would I say that? What are you trying to prove now? I do not get your piont.
I think that it is not relevant to discuss about some people who though this or though that. It does not bother me. I am glad that the Serbs are liberated from the Ottoman rule. That is relevant  

Serbs were occupied 500 years long and they aimed for liberation.
You have always people who want to interpret this as something alse.
I know that real Serbs will not say that Serbs cleanse people in order to create Serbia. Voojoo even says that Karadzic was cleansing so you can expect everything from that kind of people.

Serbian historians and other regular sources will not claim like Voojoo, that Serbs used ethnic cleansing to libarete Serbia. Serbs liberate their territories in order to prevent ethnic cleansing! You must always have that in mind.  

[Mehmetce]

SRP,the fact that you don't understand,people who are at this forum are extremely muslim haters and don't refer to them as human beings.

There is no need to generalize. Even if somebody says extreme and untrue things, there is no need to transfer such views to everybody here. If you don't hate me, I don't hate you. If you refer to me as human being, I will refer to you so too. We condemn people here not for what they are but for what they do. So don't spread lies, please.

I am not lieying,
If I do,We'll see how many people will oppose to my statement.

[voo-yo]

Vujo, thank you for educating me of these very interesting facts. I wonder, what SRP will reply to them. I suppose he will say you made it all up, including names

Why would I say that? What are you trying to prove now? I do not get your piont.
I think that it is not relevant to discuss about some people who though this or though that. It does not bother me. I am glad that the Serbs are liberated from the Ottoman rule. That is relevant  

Serbs were occupied 500 years long and they aimed for liberation.
You have always people who want to interpret this as something alse.
I know that real Serbs will not say that Serbs cleanse people in order to create Serbia. Voojoo even says that Karadzic was cleansing so you can expect everything from that kind of people.

Serbian historians and other regular sources will not claim like Voojoo, that Serbs used ethnic cleansing to libarete Serbia. Serbs liberate their territories in order to prevent ethnic cleansing! You must always have that in mind.  

What else can I say. You're thick as a brick, and blind as a bat.
Karadzic and Mladic were cleansing, and they were cleansing good. Serbian people is forever grateful to them.