The heart of the matter, is it not?

[rhodescholar]

First, let me introduce myself.

I am born conservative jewish to jewish parents, who sent me to hebrew school, and hebrew high school. 

I no longer practice the religion - but would fight to the death to defend the right of israel to exist, as I am a supporter on political grounds, which are more than sufficient to justify its existence. 

This is because I view jews as a race, not a religion.

That being said, I am no friend of muslims, and would enjoy watching them deported en masse from the West entirely.

As of more recent years, I have come to not only cease practicing or believing in religion in general, as even judaism, which is perhaps the oldest on earth, simply falls apart in a certain context.

What I refer to, is the discovery and confirmation that the earth is the most insignificant of planets, and that the known Universe itself has some 100 trillion stars, with probably 100 times that number of inhabited planets.

If that is the case, much of what judaism and the other organized religions have taught simply falls apart, as it becomes obvious that the tenets of the religion are simply inapplicable when considering the nearly infinite (to a human mind) volume of sentient species out there.

I would suspect that none of these species practice judaism, or any known religion to us, so the strictures that we jews are the chosen - chosen, amongst 1 quadrillion species? - ones, just becomes absurd.

I initiated this thread with an open mind, to learn if there are some answers to my thoughts...

[Moshe92]

I think that if anything, the fact that the universe is so large and so complex shows that there must have been a G-d who created it.

[Lisa]

If G-d doesn't exsit, then who created the universe.  As Chaim asks, how can something come from nothing? 

[rhodescholar]

I think that if anything, the fact that the universe is so large and so complex shows that there must have been a G-d who created it.

The other side of that coin is that the universe exists simply because it is comprised of chemical substances that CAN survive inside it.

To my point, there is no elements or description in judaism that address the undeniable fact that there are trillions of other sentient species out there.

[rhodescholar]

If G-d doesn't exsit, then who created the universe.  As Chaim asks, how can something come from nothing? 

If you follow the Big Bang theory, the Universe merely destroys itself and is reborn about every 20 trillion years.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

the undeniable fact that there are trillions of other sentient species out there.

Evidence please?

To date, not even extraterrestrial bacteria have been discovered.

[rhodescholar]

Those aren't facts.  Facts are something that's proven.  Those are just assumptions.  Plus, the existence of "sentient species" anywhere does not have anything to do with the Jews' chosenness since they were only chosen PEOPLE to observe G-d's Torah and be a light to the nations.  G-d has different paths for Jews and non-Jews, so if there are intelligent aliens he would probably have a different path for them too.  None of this is grounds to stop practicing Judaism.

The laws of physics are quite sturdy, and the FACT that you can see billions of stars with an unaided eye from your front lawn - and that is only the Milky Way galaxy, which itself is one of BILLIONS of galaxies in the Universe - is pretty strong evidence to most people.

Again, there is no mention in judaism describing our existence - or really to be honest, insignificance - amongst quadrillions of other species.

[rhodescholar]

the undeniable fact that there are trillions of other sentient species out there.

Evidence please?

To date, not even extraterrestrial bacteria have been discovered.

You are incorrect, as traces of Martian microbes were discovered a while back inside meteorites found in arctic ice.

[rhodescholar]

Those aren't facts.  Facts are something that's proven.  Those are just assumptions.  Plus, the existence of "sentient species" anywhere does not have anything to do with the Jews' chosenness since they were only chosen PEOPLE to observe G-d's Torah and be a light to the nations.  G-d has different paths for Jews and non-Jews, so if there are intelligent aliens he would probably have a different path for them too.  None of this is grounds to stop practicing Judaism.

The laws of physics are quite sturdy, and the FACT that you can see billions of stars with an unaided eye from your front lawn - and that is only the Milky Way galaxy, which itself is one of BILLIONS of galaxies in the Universe - is pretty strong evidence to most people.

Again, there is no mention in judaism describing our existence - or really to be honest, insignificance - amongst quadrillions of other species.

You said that it is an indeniable fact that sentient beings exist.  Obviously I wasn't talking about the existence of stars.  Stars don't prove the existence of beings.  And you're using an assumption to make judgements about Judaism.

Over the past 10 years, several hundred planets orbiting stars, with about 50 earth-size planets included amongst them, have been discovered.

Only the most closed-minded individual would believe that humans on earth, out of trillions of star systems, could possibly be the only intelligent life in the universe.

It just doesn't fly, even if sentient life occurs on 1 out of every 100 million planets - an absurdity in and of itself - that would still lead to billions of inhabited worlds.

[rhodescholar]

Those aren't facts.  That's just assumptions.  You can't prove someone wrong by saying they're close-minded to a theory, isn't science supposed to be skeptical?  But I guess it's ok to have faith in anything as long as it's not G-d, right?

Didn't I read somewhere that judaism was the most rational-based of all religions?

I am beginning to feel like Galileo did before the pope, explaining that the sun did not rotate around the earth...

[The One and Only Mo]

If you really want answers, ask your local ORTHODOX rabbi.

[rhodescholar]

If you really want answers, ask your local ORTHODOX rabbi.

Sadly and predictably, the rabbinical answers received were no better than the static, rigid doctrine I am witnessing here...

[The One and Only Mo]

If you really want answers, ask your local ORTHODOX rabbi.

Sadly and predictably, the rabbinical answers received were no better than the static, rigid doctrine I am witnessing here...

You can take it or leave it. Nothing in life is easy. Nothing is clear. If you really want to know, you CAN learn. If you choose not to, you are risking going in front of the Master of the Universe when you die and pleading for your soul. If you are Jewish, ask yourself, what makes you Jewish? Who created "Jewish people?"

[rhodescholar]

If you really want answers, ask your local ORTHODOX rabbi.

Sadly and predictably, the rabbinical answers received were no better than the static, rigid doctrine I am witnessing here...

You can take it or leave it. Nothing in life is easy. Nothing is clear. If you really want to know, you CAN learn. If you choose not to, you are risking going in front of the Master of the Universe when you die and pleading for your soul. If you are Jewish, ask yourself, what makes you Jewish? Who created "Jewish people?"

Welllll....I can easily turn this around and say, ok PROVE to me g-d exists, He wrote the Torah, etc. etc. - that goes both ways. 

Though to a scientifically-trained mind, my evidence is alot stronger... 

[rhodescholar]

If you really want answers, ask your local ORTHODOX rabbi.

Sadly and predictably, the rabbinical answers received were no better than the static, rigid doctrine I am witnessing here...

You can take it or leave it. Nothing in life is easy. Nothing is clear. If you really want to know, you CAN learn. If you choose not to, you are risking going in front of the Master of the Universe when you die and pleading for your soul. If you are Jewish, ask yourself, what makes you Jewish? Who created "Jewish people?"

Welllll....I can easily turn this around and say, ok PROVE to me g-d exists, He wrote the Torah, etc. etc. - that goes both ways. 

Though to a scientifically-trained mind, my evidence is alot stronger... 

We're still waiting for your evidence.  Are you saying your assumption that there are billions of "sentient creatures" (a.k.a. aliens) is proof that G-d does not exist?  Even if there are aliens, that does not prove that G-d doesn't exist.  Why is it you've only been a member here a few hours and you're already showing more outrage against Judaism than terrorism?

Where in the torah does it mention that the earth is one of billions of planets, or anyone else in judaic literature?

How could a religion so founded in legitimacy fail to mention, that "oh by the way, you are one amongst billions"? 

Until you or someone else can show me how the religion is still applicable when the fact that the earth is a tiny, insignificant nothing, and that we as humans are far from alone - you have no more "evidence" than I do, if not far less.  Especially since each day the scientific world emerges with further proof that We are Not Alone...

[Muck DeFuslims]

No, it is not the heart of the matter.

Your basic premise is founded on faulty logic.

Even if as you say, there are quadrillions of other beings and civilizations in the universe, in no way does that disprove or mitigate the validity of the Torah or of Judaism as a religion.

The Torah gives us an account of Creation and the origin of the universe. It gives us a set of laws and standards to live by.

It says nothing about the existence of life elsewhere in the universe. It is mute on the question of whether other universes exist.

How you extrapolate this silence into a disbelief of what it does say is mystifying.

I can appreciate your reluctance to believe the Torah is divine. I can appreciate that you're probably an agnostic or maybe even an atheist. I honestly have no problem whatsoever with that.

I just don't see how the probability of life elsewhere in the universe disproves anything the Torah says about how the universe was created, or the legitimacy of Judaism as a religion.

[rhodescholar]

Even if as you say, there are quadrillions of other beings and civilizations in the universe, in no way does that disprove or mitigate the validity of the Torah or of Judaism as a religion.

How could it not?  What if large numbers of those beings arrive, and prove that there is no being as "G-d" as we have perceived it through OUR religions?

Think of it this way, when native americans or other ancient, backwards cultures came into contact with earlier colonial europeans, they took their religion as a replacement for their own, because they easily were able to see how much more closely it followed reality.

Were we as humans, who given how short our existence has been, eventually encounter other species, many of whom will no doubt be far more advanced technologically, it is quite likely that they too will show us how incorrect in our beliefs we have been.

For the religion to simply mention, "there are alot of stars out there - and oh by the way, there are alot of beings living amongst them" is just too far a stretch for me to accept at this point.

I mean really, you can show a man waving his hand and the ocean separates, but telling him that those points of light in the sky are other planets would be too scary for ancient people?

The Torah gives us an account of Creation and the origin of the universe. It gives us a set of laws and standards to live by.

Yes, in 6 days. which if true, the pc you are typing on could not exist, as the laws of physics would have to be eliminated entirely.

It says nothing about the existence of life elsewhere in the universe. It is mute on the question of whether other universes exist.

Was it because perhaps the human authors of the religion had no clue whatsoever about space?

I just don't see how the probability of life elsewhere in the universe disproves anything the Torah says about how the universe was created, or the legitimacy of Judaism as a religion.

The points I made above address this...

[Muck DeFuslims]

Even if as you say, there are quadrillions of other beings and civilizations in the universe, in no way does that disprove or mitigate the validity of the Torah or of Judaism as a religion.

How could it not?  What if large numbers of those beings arrive, and prove that there is no being as "G-d" as we have perceived it through OUR religions?

Think of it this way, when native americans or other ancient, backwards cultures came into contact with earlier colonial europeans, they took their religion as a replacement for their own, because they easily were able to see how much more closely it followed reality.

Were we as humans, who given how short our existence has been, eventually encounter other species, many of whom will no doubt be far more advanced technologically, it is quite likely that they too will show us how incorrect in our beliefs we have been.

For the religion to simply mention, "there are alot of stars out there - and oh by the way, there are alot of beings living amongst them" is just too far a stretch for me to accept at this point.

I mean really, you can show a man waving his hand and the ocean separates, but telling him that those points of light in the sky are other planets would be too scary for ancient people?

The Torah gives us an account of Creation and the origin of the universe. It gives us a set of laws and standards to live by.

Yes, in 6 days. which if true, the pc you are typing on could not exist, as the laws of physics would have to be eliminated entirely.

It says nothing about the existence of life elsewhere in the universe. It is mute on the question of whether other universes exist.

Was it because perhaps the human authors of the religion had no clue whatsoever about space?

I just don't see how the probability of life elsewhere in the universe disproves anything the Torah says about how the universe was created, or the legitimacy of Judaism as a religion.

The points I made above address this...

Sorry, basing the assumption that the Torah can not be Divine, that Judaism isn't legitimate, and that G-d probably doesn't exist, on the premise of aliens coming to Earth and revealing some other universal truth to humankind is not scientific thinking.

One could easily ask 'what if aliens came to Earth and confirmed the Biblical account of Creation as depicted in Genesis ?'.

'What if ?' is not a scientific observation. It is speculation.

Scientific observations are based on empirical evidence, not speculation.

Now of course, asking you to show this forum empirical evidence that G-d doesn't exist would be unfair. It's almost impossible to prove a 'negative' of this type. That is why I have absolutely no problem with you being an agnostic, atheist or whatever.

Belief in G-d and religion is based on faith. Obviously you don't incorporate faith in your belief system and choose instead to rely on what can be scientifically proven. Again, that is perfectly understandable.

But don't delude yourself into thinking that speculation about aliens arriving on Earth and proclaiming 'there is no G-d and the Torah is wrong' is scientific thinking. For it is not.

As far as the apparent contradiction between the Torah and science regarding the age of the universe ( 6 days of creation versus billions of years), that is a reasonable argument based on scientific evidence.

So the question would be 'is the Biblical account of creation and story of '6 days' of creation incompatible with modern scientific knowlege ?'

Surprisingly, the answer to this question is a resounding no.

If you're truly open minded and interested in how 6 days can be equivalent to billions of years, and why the scientific evidence showing the evolution of the universe from chaos to cosmos isn't incompatible with the account given in Genesis, I would refer you to the works of Dr. Gerald Schroeder.

He's an actual scientist, not merely someone who professes to think like a scientist. He's an MIT professor with a PHd in physics and molecular biology. He's also a devout Jew.

If you're interested, I will provide an audio link to a seminar he gave in Jerusalem regarding the age of the universe and Torah.

You might be very surprised by what you hear.

[rhodescholar]

I can't believe you are still basing your whole argument on "what if there are aliens".  Out of all the arguments I've heard against G-d and Torah, that is actually one of the lamest.  It's pathetic that you base your lack of faith on a different faith--aliens instead of G-d.  You are at an unacceptable level in your spiritual journey.  My advice to you is to get rid of the tin foil hat and put on a kipa.

You seem to be unable to expand your thinking and step up to the platform where I am standing; so let me repeat it yet again, in the most basic terms possible:

#1-there is NOTHING in judiasm referring to life on other planets - or even the existence of other planets whatsoever, this leads to my next point...

#2-if judaism is a religion that only exists here on earth, and we meet beings from other worlds who do not believe in religion or practice it, where does that leave judaism?

Especially if these other beings are infinitely more advanced, how could jews possibly be considered "guiding lights" to them?

The fundamental point here is that judaism is simply not applicable when you include the fact of billions of other sentient species, some vastly more advanced than ours.

[muman613]

Where are these aliens? They are so sophisticated we cant see them? I dont believe in aliens...

I do believe in Hashem. I also know that everything which exists was created by Hashem, even any lifeforms on other planets. The entire physicality was created by Hashem and he has shown through public revelation his love for the Jewish people.

BTW, I dont think this kind of discussion should be in the Torah and Jewish idea section. It is denial of the truth of Torah to believe that anything in the entire creation was not created by the Holy One, blessed is he.

[HiWarp]

I can't believe you are still basing your whole argument on "what if there are aliens".  Out of all the arguments I've heard against G-d and Torah, that is actually one of the lamest.  It's pathetic that you base your lack of faith on a different faith--aliens instead of G-d.  You are at an unacceptable level in your spiritual journey.  My advice to you is to get rid of the tin foil hat and put on a kipa.

You seem to be unable to expand your thinking and step up to the platform where I am standing; so let me repeat it yet again, in the most basic terms possible:

#1-there is NOTHING in judiasm referring to life on other planets - or even the existence of other planets whatsoever, this leads to my next point...

#2-if judaism is a religion that only exists here on earth, and we meet beings from other worlds who do not believe in religion or practice it, where does that leave judaism?

Especially if these other beings are infinitely more advanced, how could jews possibly be considered "guiding lights" to them?

The fundamental point here is that judaism is simply not applicable when you include the fact of billions of other sentient species, some vastly more advanced than ours.

Suppose there are millions of aliens on other planets, and I don't doubt there is life on other worlds. And suppose that in a few hundred or thousand years we attain the technology to travel to other stars. And suppose that we encounter other life forms there but it turns out that we are the advanced aliens and they are comparatively primitive. Does this scenario actually prove that G-d exists and that Judaism is applicable?

[cjd]

This is an interesting topic for debate however I honestly believe if life exists on other planets G-d in all his wisdom put it so far away it would be almost impossible to ever travel to. Mankind can't even get along with itself here on Earth  how are we ever going to get along with creatures from other planets should such a thing exist.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What I refer to, is the discovery and confirmation that the earth is the most insignificant of planets, and that the known Universe itself has some 100 trillion stars, with probably 100 times that number of inhabited planets.

Where?  Where are these planets? 

As to earth being the "most insignificant" who defines what is significant and what isn't?    On the one hand, out of the KNOWN planets in our solar system, Earth is the only one known to have water and life on it, so a person could call that the most significant, but even if there WAS life on other planets, how does that contradict Judaism?   The Torah was given to the Jews... On this planet.  About how to live life on earth.   Not on Planet X or a faraway galaxy.  Even if those places exist, people still need instructions from God as to how to live a moral life on earth.

If that is the case, much of what judaism and the other organized religions have taught simply falls apart,

  How so?

as it becomes obvious that the tenets of the religion are simply inapplicable when considering the nearly infinite (to a human mind) volume of sentient species out there.   

Which tenet(s)?  What exactly falls apart if there is life out in other planets?   And where did they find all of these "species" ?  Or are you making that up because a science fiction writer theorizes that they "might be" out there?   I have not heard of this before.

I would suspect that none of these species practice judaism, or any known religion to us, so the strictures that we jews are the chosen - chosen, amongst 1 quadrillion species? - ones, just becomes absurd.   

Cows also do not practice Judaism.   There are so many cows on earth.  And so many elephants.    Jews being "chosen" has nothing to do with our quantity, or relative to other animals.   Ever read what the Torah actually says?   You will see there, it is not about size or strength.

Devarim Ch. 7 verse 7-8
7. Not because you are more numerous than any people did the Lord delight in you and choose you, for you are the least of all the peoples.

8. But because of the Lord's love for you, and because He keeps the oath He swore to your forefathers, the Lord took you out with a strong hand and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt.



Also verse 6 shows that this is talking about choosing from people on earth, not from other creatures.
6. For you are a holy people to the Lord, your God: the Lord your God has chosen you to be His treasured people, out of all the peoples upon the face of the earth.


quotes taken from chabad.org

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Those aren't facts.  Facts are something that's proven.  Those are just assumptions.  Plus, the existence of "sentient species" anywhere does not have anything to do with the Jews' chosenness since they were only chosen PEOPLE to observe G-d's Torah and be a light to the nations.  G-d has different paths for Jews and non-Jews, so if there are intelligent aliens he would probably have a different path for them too.  None of this is grounds to stop practicing Judaism.

The laws of physics are quite sturdy, and the FACT that you can see billions of stars with an unaided eye from your front lawn - and that is only the Milky Way galaxy, which itself is one of BILLIONS of galaxies in the Universe - is pretty strong evidence to most people.

Since when are stars and galaxies sentient living beings?
Perhaps you don't really understand astrology.   You should study these things before you speak about them, and certainly before you use related information to make lifechanging decisions.

Again, there is no mention in judaism describing our existence - or really to be honest, insignificance - amongst quadrillions of other species.

What would be the point of saying so?   That would only make people feel unimportant as if their actions don't matter.  Judaism is coming to teach the exact opposite.  Despite what you might think, despite that it might seem humans are insignificant (say compared to G-d, or in your case compared to billions of stars that so dazzle you), nonetheless, human behavior and the actions we do are of utmost importance and have a huge impact.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Where in the torah does it mention that the earth is one of billions of planets, or anyone else in judaic literature?

Why does it have to?   It's not a science textbook.    It's not coming to teach you biology or other disciplines.

How could a religion so founded in legitimacy fail to mention, that "oh by the way, you are one amongst billions"? 

 
Because it's irrelevant, and we at that time and even now have no way of interacting with these supposed billions if they do actually exist.   So of what use is it to know they are there.    The Torah also didn't predict the rainfall estimates for the year 2004.   Because it was not the intention of the Torah to tell you every possible fact that there is.   A farmer's almanac teaches you about next year's estimated rainfall, and a physics book tells you about newton's theorems.   The Torah is something different which is coming to teach you relevant facts and relevant behaviors to do G-d's will in the world and elevate yourself.   It is teaching morality and insights into human nature (not hypothetical imaginary alien nature).

Until you or someone else can show me how the religion is still applicable when the fact that the earth is a tiny, insignificant nothing, and that we as humans are far from alone -

There is no indication that this would be any reason to make religion less relevant or valuable.

Not only all of this, but in addition, I'm sure the kabalah does include for the possibilities of these other worlds.   But that is neither here nor there.  The fact is that none of this is relevant to Judaism.    That earth is tiny does not make G-d less great or humans less important.    We already knew that man was tiny.   And that things on earth were like nothingness compared to G-d, even the most vast ocean, is nothing compared to Him.   Judaism teaches that despite that obvious observation one could make, it is important what we do and don't do.