Author Topic: The Minimum Wage  (Read 5615 times)

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Offline dawntreader

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The Minimum Wage
« on: April 23, 2007, 08:56:27 PM »
During this past Ask JTF broadcast, Chaim made the assertion that a Kahanist government (And Chaim in particular) do not agree with nor support a minimum wage.

I have to disagree with Chaim on this issue. I don't believe that a total free market would be beneficial. Corporations in general, and even small businesses have not ever in the past, nor do I believe they would in the future EVER pay people what they are worth.

This is because a free market (While mostly a good concept) also leads to unbridled greed among those who are the leaders in the market. What it really creates is a class system...those who are extremely wealthy, and those who are dirt poor eking out the meagerest existence.

America has gone more and more down this road and the dying out of the so-called Middle Class is evidence that all the "Free Trade" policies that have been enacted over the past 30 years are not good...but BAD for America, and would no doubt be BAD for Israel as well.

There SHOULD be a free Market...but one where Corporations have some kind of accountability so that the  average worker never becomes a complete and utter serf, a wage slave even worse than the average worker is right now, and so that Corporate leaders are held absolutely to the same standards as those they step upon.

(By the way, if the American Corporations followed the Japanese model, while not perfect, the average worker would no doubt be infinitely happier with the exception of the work hours the Japanese are required to put in.)
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Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2007, 09:06:18 PM »

This is because a free market (While mostly a good concept) also leads to unbridled greed among those who are the leaders in the market. What it really creates is a class system...those who are extremely wealthy, and those who are dirt poor eking out the meagerest existence.


Dirty Commie!  ;D

Offline dawntreader

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2007, 09:21:17 PM »
LOL!

Nope, not a commie.

Not close. But I don't believe in unbridled commerce either. Or more specifically, I have a problem with Corporate America.
Victory is a thing of the will. -General Ferdinand Foch

Our peace must be a peace of victors, not of the vanquished.
- General Ferdinand Foch

We have met the enemy and they are ours.
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Offline Fruit of thy loins

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2007, 07:41:29 AM »
Government and business should work hand-in-hand, like partners, and the country itself should be considered the corporation with all the economic agents (individuals, businesses, the government, foreign investors) the 'shareholders' of the country.

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Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2007, 11:23:46 AM »
Government and business should work hand-in-hand, like partners, and the country itself should be considered the corporation with all the economic agents (individuals, businesses, the government, foreign investors) the 'shareholders' of the country.



That's National Socialism, Fruit.

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2007, 05:29:05 PM »
Well it is a trade off.  Low income workers might be paid less than they will be paid in a beurocracy but in a Kahanist goverment there will be no income taxes (just sales tax) so if you compare how much money you end up in your pocket you will probably have more.  Of course there should be offices and committes to make sure workers are not abused though.  Also there will be more work available since nowadays they probably use illegal arab immigrants to do a lot of the low class work and underpay them.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 05:32:22 PM by jdl4ever »
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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2007, 05:33:00 PM »
Why would there not be an income tax? A government can't run a country without some tax.

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2007, 05:38:01 PM »
Why would there not be an income tax? A government can't run a country without some tax.
Because this is what Chaim said.  Actually, a hundred years ago the US had no income taxes and it ran fine. The government only needs sales tax to run, charge for bridges and tunnels, have a real estate and school tax.  Perhaps in our time there should be a spearate tax for a government sponsored health care system. That is it. Income tax is illegal in my opinion since it robs you of your hard earned money. 
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2007, 05:43:13 PM »
All the other forms of tax take  your "hard earned money", as well.SO it makes no difference on that front, I personally think that income tax is the fairest form of tax as it makes the people who earn the most give the most to the state. If I was running a governement, I would have income tax, import tax, and punitive taxes only. (punitive taxes are taxes on the purchase of things the governement wants to discourage e.g. cigarettes)

Offline MarZutra

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2007, 06:22:13 PM »
During this past Ask JTF broadcast, Chaim made the assertion that a Kahanist government (And Chaim in particular) do not agree with nor support a minimum wage.

I have to disagree with Chaim on this issue. I don't believe that a total free market would be beneficial. Corporations in general, and even small businesses have not ever in the past, nor do I believe they would in the future EVER pay people what they are worth.

This is because a free market (While mostly a good concept) also leads to unbridled greed among those who are the leaders in the market. What it really creates is a class system...those who are extremely wealthy, and those who are dirt poor eking out the meagerest existence.

America has gone more and more down this road and the dying out of the so-called Middle Class is evidence that all the "Free Trade" policies that have been enacted over the past 30 years are not good...but BAD for America, and would no doubt be BAD for Israel as well.

There SHOULD be a free Market...but one where Corporations have some kind of accountability so that the  average worker never becomes a complete and utter serf, a wage slave even worse than the average worker is right now, and so that Corporate leaders are held absolutely to the same standards as those they step upon.

(By the way, if the American Corporations followed the Japanese model, while not perfect, the average worker would no doubt be infinitely happier with the exception of the work hours the Japanese are required to put in.)
It is most certainly ok to disagree but “minimum wage” is a purely Marxistic/Socialistic concept that is rooted in Marx’s own writings.  It is a horrible concept. 

That is not exactly the case.  What is needed is labor legislation and a series of criminal classifications under both the labor code and the employment code to businesses.  A good example would be the anti-Child Labor legislation passed during the British Industrial Revolution days.  One should not be penalized for being successful but should be penalized if he/she enters the realm of criminality and exploitation as you have stated above.  The fact is that under Free Enterprise or controlled Capitalism America grew far more and experienced such massive expansion in personal luxuries and higher standards of living especially prior to World War 1.  Ever since Woodrow Wilson the Federal government has been stacking the Leftist Supreme Court judges passing more and more Socialistic legislations which, in fact, do exactly what you stated above, make the rich get richer and the poor become poorer.  Because behind those legislation is always a greedy "capitalist" rat...

Today with this piracy called “free trade” which is only Marxist Wealth Transfer right from the Communist Manifesto, America and the West have become increasingly dependent on the slave labor Communist/Turd World dictatorships solely because of these socialistic laws like “minimum wage”.   

What you state about “Free Trade” being bad is absolutely correct because it isn’t free trade it is another, as stated earlier, Marxist Wealth transfer.  Brian Molruney , Canada’s so-called “right wing” Prime Minister stated publicly that NAFT and GATT were the worst things that he did while Prime Minister.  That he was lied to by his advisers, which turned out to be Socialists/Globalists like Ghorge Wahabbi Bush.  You are right DT, “Free Trade” is bad.  If all things being the same value for value and production costs vs production costs, it would be Free Trade but what it actually is as of this date is “product dumping”.  The use of our materials, and far lower wages (when compared to our economy crippling unionization) these inferior but vastly cheaper products land on our shores and drive out our entire manufacturing base.  This is too directly applicable to “minimum wage”.  Minimum Wage is an artificial wage floor that is directly determined, not by economic reliability but by some Marxist Lobby group that continually wants more for nothing...  A very good example relating to this was Jimmy Hoffa and his Union scheme that literally extorted employers......

DT. You hit the nail on the head when you said there should be a way for wages offered by Corporations to its employees to be comparable to their work and not resort to wage slavery or employee exploitation.  This is why I feel, nationalism is exactly logical and moral.  This, in my opinion, could be done by bringing back the Trade Tariffs, as I have stated, there is no such thing as “free trade”, which will make domestically produced goods more appealing and competitive to slave made [censored] from China, India, Malaysia, Indonesia etc.  This would to bolster domestically produced goods.  Combine this with active internal economics catered to Free Enterprise Controlled Capitalism of small business the areas of technology, efficiency, productivity, quality etc. would all be greatly enhanced.  One need only compare the days of your great grand parents or your grandparents to the laziness and totally incapable working atmosphere today as directly influenced by all of these Marxist/Socialistic lies and economic/social platforms that continue to grow like a cancer. 

There should be employment legislation protecting both the employee and employer from being taken advantage of or exploited in any way, which minimum wage and all these other ineptitudes accomplish.  Bottom line…don’t like it…quit. 

"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline cosmokramer

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2007, 07:24:59 PM »
But then again you cant have companies taking advantage of people. Giving them bad wages. Its a hard subject to solve.

Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2007, 08:44:56 PM »
   I think that minimum wage and a higher one should apply to all labor which is outsourced. If a US company has a need for overseas labor, it should be a real need and not just cheaper labor to reduce the amount of American jobs. I'll agree that foreign work ethic is often better because of the lack of affirmative action and beaurocracy. So if a company wants to higher a foreign employee over an American one because the foreign one will do a better job at least they should have to pay for it.
   I will disagree with Chaim about the minimum wage for only one reason. Companies are stingy. A hard and productive worker might not excel in the one or two areas of negotiation or political skills to obtain a descent salary. One problem we have right now is that welfare payments exceed the salary of a 40 hour minimum wage job by about a factor of three. This is for an individual. For a crack mother of five, these payments go up.
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Offline MarZutra

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2007, 09:20:49 PM »
Yes, but many of you keep forgetting that you have the right not to work for that employer.  One can always quit.  What should be in place is Labor legislations to prevent wage slavery and poor working conditions.  If an individual is qualified and a good worker he can literally demand and receive his wage via negotiation during the hiring process. 

Minimum wage is purely Marxist in nature.  It acts against competition.  It acts against the free market.  If the wage offered is too low, no one will apply for the job as we see today in many cases....that resort to illegal aliens.  If we had border control and our Nation actually cared for its citizens and its Nationhood these illegals would not be there to work for such low wages.  If the illegals were not here, the employers would have to increase the wage level themselves to attract people to apply and fill the jobs.

Again, if you don't like it....quit and move to another higher paying job.

If one is an employer that is barely making a living and breaking even due to all of these damn communistic labor legislations minimum wage, health care, fitness rooms, paid maternity leave, sickness, affirmative action, Unions crawling up your ass, job security (even during times of recession and you are not making any money), vacation, retirement plans, employment tax, insurance, operational expenses, theft costs, sickness leave....this list is endless of what the employer has to do while the employee just has to get up in the morning and go do his job and collect a check.  If an entrepreneur fails he can't collect unemployment (another expense he pays into for his employees) but must resort to bankruptcy and the welfare line... 

Again, if someone doesn't like the work...don't apply...  If one doesn't like the Job or the Company...quit.
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline Until Shiloh Comes

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2007, 09:30:58 PM »
Why would there not be an income tax? A government can't run a country without some tax.

Hello ftf, and good day.

Government can and should be funded via the system laid out by our American Constitution, not a Marxist income tax system.  The real point here is an income tax is completely incompatible with a truly free society.   Under an income tax system the government is effectively in control of 100% of your income, as is the case here in the United States.  Under our original Constitution governments were funded via voluntary compliance, tariffs, duties, and excise taxes.  This is the only system harmonious with freedom, and autonomy.

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Offline MarZutra

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2007, 09:51:00 PM »
In all actuality, income tax is viewed under your Constitution, backed with multiple supreme court rulings that it is an extension of the individual and cannot be taxed.  That said, there is not one legal document that demands any American citizen to pay income tax.  Income tax is wholly unconstitutional and illegal...though the IRS will probably hunt you down under this current military dictatorship should you decide to challenge this fact.  A good friend of mine is with the IRS and has informed me on such specificities of Income Tax. 

The government has the right to tax many other areas that it should be able to easily collect viable funds needed to run its operations.  It is only since the days of Woodrow Wilson that there has been an ever expanding Socialistic big cumbersome and highly expensive/expansive Federal government that this income tax is actually needed to fund along with the billions and billions of dollars continually granted to various Turd World, Marxist/Communist and Islamic dictatorships around the world in "Foreign Aid" which, in all actuality, is non refundable Wealth Transfer programs which the tax payer foots the bill whenever these deprave states laps on paying their so-called loans...
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2007, 11:57:29 PM »
I think I agree, for the most part, with Dawntreader. The overriding principle of a market is "survival of the fittest". In any totally unfettered market, some business entities will always become stronger and more predatory than their weaker competitors. How else did the likes of Standard Oil, Microsoft, GE, and other oligopolies/monopolies like them get so powerful?

Offline MarZutra

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2007, 07:36:50 AM »
I think I agree, for the most part, with Dawntreader. The overriding principle of a market is "survival of the fittest". In any totally unfettered market, some business entities will always become stronger and more predatory than their weaker competitors. How else did the likes of Standard Oil, Microsoft, GE, and other oligopolies/monopolies like them get so powerful?
This is true, this is why I have stated that there needs to be strong labor legislation and also strong corruption/monopoly/insider trading etc. legislations over the employers.  Most of these companies that you have stated got that way exactly due to bribing public officials, working hand and hand with the mafia, bid fraud a good example is Armand Hammer and his dealings with Occidental Petroleum in South America and Libya. 

Aside from that it should be a Free Market controlled Capitalist economy with Conservative/Nationalistic Social programs that bolsters small business and creativity of the working/small businessman and nothing whatsoever to do with socialism.  Bring back the concept of Charities, true education and not Jon Dewey's "Progressive" education and strengthen the Family unit.  A good example is to look at the growth of America up until the 1920's compared with today.  I'd beg that the average American citizen was far better off then compared to now in nearly every facet of society.  This also is directly applicable to Canada...  The earlier days when people worked for what they had and the government was small and not in everybody's business the people were free and lived by their Constitution and their moral compass.  Today it is socialism, immorality and totally treasonous activities of those ruling elite.....  All the products of Socialism....

Here in Canada, thanks to Socialism, 48 cents of every dollar earned goes to the Government to pay for this burden while Canadians could be doing things for themselves....  Winston Churchill was correct when he stated "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Taxpayers becoming slaves for government


By Klaus Rohrich

Friday, April 20, 2007

It appears that the transformation of Canada's people into tax slaves is now complete. A report issued by the Fraser Institute just last week has determined that the average Canadian family's largest expenditure involves taxes. The authors revealed that the average annual income of the typical Canadian family is just over $63,000 per year. Of that food shelter and clothing account for approximately 35% (about $22,000), while taxes eat up an astounding 44.9%, nearly $30,000 per year.

What's so remarkable is that every single level of government from the federal to the provincial, to the county to the municipal is clamoring for more money. What's wrong with this picture?

What's worse is that most Canadians seem to have accepted both the confiscatory taxation as well as the incompetence on the part of the burgeoning bureaucracy that appears to lumber from crisis to crisis.

If you think there's something amiss with our society, then chances are you're a sentient human being whose brain hasn't been poisoned by a steady diet of "Oprah" and "American Idol". The fact that providing daycare has become such an important issue, both socially and politically, is directly related to the high level of taxation with which Canadians are currently burdened. Imagine, it takes two breadwinners in a family to make ends meet. One works solely to support the crushing taxes that government has imposed on the citizens, while the other works to provide for the needs of the family.

God help you if you are a single parent, because then the game gets interesting. For openers you are absolutely dependent on some form of child care, as without it you could never make ends meet. What's worse, your decisions at the polls on election day are not driven by what's best for the country, but what's best for you, as you depend to a large degree on the largesse of the government to provide or subsidize your daycare.

Some months ago, the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives issued an alarming report that indicated that the rich were getting richer, while the rest of us were losing ground. Somehow the report attempted to imply that the rich were getting richer on the backs of the poor. It missed the real point by a country mile. People are losing ground economically because of high taxes. In addition our tax burden is crippling us economically as it affects the overall productivity of the country.

Consider that in 1961 the average Canadian family earned around $5,000 per year. Single parents were almost unheard of and most families had a stay at home mom to raise the children. Back then that family's tax burden was $1675 per year. Today, nearly 50 years later, the average family's income has increased by a factor of 12.5, but the tax burden has increased during that same time period by a factor of 18, meaning that taxes have grown at 1.5 times the rate of income.

Want to venture a guess on where this is heading? Mathematically, with taxes continuing to rise at that rate and productivity continuing to fall, it is inevitable that someday families will be forced to pay 100% of their income in taxes in an effort to keep the bloated corpse we call a government from rotting away completely.

It seems the Liberals were looking way ahead of the curve when they enacted their gun control legislation all those years ago. If I were a Canadian politician I wouldn't be comfortable with an armed population either. Judging by the recent budget brought down by Finance Minister Jim Flaherty, I'd guess that Stephen Harper will not abolish the Gun Registry any time soon.
Klaus Rohrich is a columnist with Canada Free Press. Klaus can be reached at: [email protected].
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 07:43:11 AM by MarZutra »
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2007, 10:36:24 AM »
I think I agree, for the most part, with Dawntreader. The overriding principle of a market is "survival of the fittest". In any totally unfettered market, some business entities will always become stronger and more predatory than their weaker competitors. How else did the likes of Standard Oil, Microsoft, GE, and other oligopolies/monopolies like them get so powerful?
This is true, this is why I have stated that there needs to be strong labor legislation and also strong corruption/monopoly/insider trading etc. legislations over the employers.  Most of these companies that you have stated got that way exactly due to bribing public officials, working hand and hand with the mafia, bid fraud a good example is Armand Hammer and his dealings with Occidental Petroleum in South America and Libya. 

Aside from that it should be a Free Market controlled Capitalist economy with Conservative/Nationalistic Social programs that bolsters small business and creativity of the working/small businessman and nothing whatsoever to do with socialism.  Bring back the concept of Charities, true education and not Jon Dewey's "Progressive" education and strengthen the Family unit.  A good example is to look at the growth of America up until the 1920's compared with today.  I'd beg that the average American citizen was far better off then compared to now in nearly every facet of society.  This also is directly applicable to Canada...  The earlier days when people worked for what they had and the government was small and not in everybody's business the people were free and lived by their Constitution and their moral compass.  Today it is socialism, immorality and totally treasonous activities of those ruling elite.....  All the products of Socialism....

Here in Canada, thanks to Socialism, 48 cents of every dollar earned goes to the Government to pay for this burden while Canadians could be doing things for themselves....  Winston Churchill was correct when he stated "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Taxpayers becoming slaves for government


By Klaus Rohrich

Friday, April 20, 2007

It appears that the transformation of Canada's people into tax slaves is now complete. A report issued by the Fraser Institute just last week has determined that the average Canadian family's largest expenditure involves taxes. The authors revealed that the average annual income of the typical Canadian family is just over $63,000 per year. Of that food shelter and clothing account for approximately 35% (about $22,000), while taxes eat up an astounding 44.9%, nearly $30,000 per year.

What's so remarkable is that every single level of government from the federal to the provincial, to the county to the municipal is clamoring for more money. What's wrong with this picture?

What's worse is that most Canadians seem to have accepted both the confiscatory taxation as well as the incompetence on the part of the burgeoning bureaucracy that appears to lumber from crisis to crisis.

If you think there's something amiss with our society, then chances are you're a sentient human being whose brain hasn't been poisoned by a steady diet of "Oprah" and "American Idol". The fact that providing daycare has become such an important issue, both socially and politically, is directly related to the high level of taxation with which Canadians are currently burdened. Imagine, it takes two breadwinners in a family to make ends meet. One works solely to support the crushing taxes that government has imposed on the citizens, while the other works to provide for the needs of the family.

G-d help you if you are a single parent, because then the game gets interesting. For openers you are absolutely dependent on some form of child care, as without it you could never make ends meet. What's worse, your decisions at the polls on election day are not driven by what's best for the country, but what's best for you, as you depend to a large degree on the largesse of the government to provide or subsidize your daycare.

Some months ago, the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives issued an alarming report that indicated that the rich were getting richer, while the rest of us were losing ground. Somehow the report attempted to imply that the rich were getting richer on the backs of the poor. It missed the real point by a country mile. People are losing ground economically because of high taxes. In addition our tax burden is crippling us economically as it affects the overall productivity of the country.

Consider that in 1961 the average Canadian family earned around $5,000 per year. Single parents were almost unheard of and most families had a stay at home mom to raise the children. Back then that family's tax burden was $1675 per year. Today, nearly 50 years later, the average family's income has increased by a factor of 12.5, but the tax burden has increased during that same time period by a factor of 18, meaning that taxes have grown at 1.5 times the rate of income.

Want to venture a guess on where this is heading? Mathematically, with taxes continuing to rise at that rate and productivity continuing to fall, it is inevitable that someday families will be forced to pay 100% of their income in taxes in an effort to keep the bloated corpse we call a government from rotting away completely.

It seems the Liberals were looking way ahead of the curve when they enacted their gun control legislation all those years ago. If I were a Canadian politician I wouldn't be comfortable with an armed population either. Judging by the recent budget brought down by Finance Minister Jim Flaherty, I'd guess that Stephen Harper will not abolish the Gun Registry any time soon.
Klaus Rohrich is a columnist with Canada Free Press. Klaus can be reached at: [email protected].


What was John Dewey's system?

Offline MarZutra

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Re: The Minimum Wage
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2007, 10:45:34 AM »
Jon Dewey was a member of the Fabian Society that brought Socialism/Communism to American Academia with the aid of the Rockefeller foundation....  He was the one who introduced all of this communistic ideas, social engineering, psychological conditioning and the introduction of many of the New Age teachings like Margarette Meade's "planned parenthood", "safe sex" instead of health and every aspect of pro-abortion and population control...
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.