Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Don’t Be Weird Grow A Beard!!!
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 20, 2009, 07:52:45 PM ---Yes a lot of Jews do not have payot. But the Temani (who have lived in isolation in the Arabian peninsula since Shlomo HaMelekh’s time and who practice a purer form of Judaism) have payot...
--- End quote ---
Like I said, Teymanim were forced to wear "payoth" by the Muslim govt to separate them from the Non-Jews, and they were actually called "Simanim" (not payoth. Payoth are the corners of your field that you leave for the poor) for that very reason. Ask a Yemenite about it, maybe he'll know. If not, look it up. I've seen that there are sources about this.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 20, 2009, 08:50:08 PM ---Last week I asked a Hasidic friend did people in the Tanach have payot. That was one thing he told me. I wish I could confirm if it was true.
--- End quote ---
First mistake. Sometimes people just make stuff up to justify their own practice. There are also nutty people who will tell you that Moshe Rebenu wore a black hat and/or a kipa.
--- Quote ---The Temani and the Hasidim always had the exact same style of payot even though they lived on opposite sides of the world and never seen each other.
--- End quote ---
What do you mean hasidim "have always" had the exact same style? "Hasidim" (those followers of Hasidic Judaism) have only been in existence for about 300 years (or less).
--- Quote ---
My topic here is aimed at Jews in huts l’arets. They are the ones who must distinguish themselves from goyim especially the Jews in America. Assimilation is an extremely big problem there. B’ezrath Hashem it will soon stop!!!
--- End quote ---
Good luck trying to get them to sport payoth. Most of them don't even know why they should stay Jewish at all, let alone wear a "Jewish" hairstyle.
muman613:
KWRBT,
I disagree with you on this topic. There is much evidence that biblical men wore peyot, this is why it is one of the commandments. We have argued about this several times and you have yet to prove your point. It seems you are arguing from the point of your own opinion and not based on scripture or any teaching of any respected Rabbi.
I have heard it said from several rabbis, both Chassidic and Non-Chassidic that peyot are a commandment. And there is much evidence I can produce which shows that this is a distinctive Jewish hair-style which was kept by all the Patriarchs and Jews for many centuries.
I dont know why you are so opposed to them? What is the purpose of denying a commandment?
muman613:
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/5/Q1/
Our first reader from University of Maryland writes:
Dear Rabbi,
I've always been fascinated by the dress of Hassidic Jews and wondered why it is that the men grow long sidelocks?
signed,
Curious in College Park
Dear Curious,
Let us approach this question in two parts, briefly.
First of all, the Torah commandment is not only for Hassidim, but intended for every Jewish male. The Torah teaches:
"Do not cut off the hair on the sides of your head..."
Vayikra 19:27.
A Jewish male must leave sideburns (peyot) down to the joints of the jaw that are opposite the ear, approximately a third of the way down the ear.
Secondly, the custom to wear _long_ peyot is mentioned in the Talmudic commentary of Tosefot (compiled in Touques, France, approx. 1300 CE :
"One has to be exceedingly careful not to remove his Peyot even with a scissors because they are like a razor; therefore the accepted custom has been to leave long peyot on children when they have their first haircut."
(Nazir 41b)
Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch in his commentary on the Torah suggests that peyot form a symbolic separation between the front part of the brain and the rear part. The front part is the intellectual, the rear part is the more physical, the more sensual. The wearer of peyot is thus making a statement that he is aware of both facets of his mind, and intends to keep them to their appointed tasks.
The previous answer first appeared on soc.culture.jewish, before the ASK THE RABBI list began. When it did, Howard at Mt. Holyoke wrote to us asking:
If the Torah commands that men (I assume there's another passage somewhere that makes this commandment refer only to males) "not cut off their hair on the sides of [their] heads," then why are the sideburns cut off "approximately a third of the way down the ear?" Either we are commanded to not cut the hair, or we are commanded to let it grow to a certain length.
Where did the length interpretation come from?
Good question!
The length interpretation is based on the word "peyot", which means "corners", referring to the corners of the head. See Rashi on the verse in Vayikra 19:27; Rashi also gives a lengthy description (sorry!) of the locations of the "corners", and why they are called "corners".
The reader in Mt. Holyoke is correct in his assumption that only MEN are obligated to wear peyot. This is further explained in the Gemara in Kiddushin 35b.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 21, 2009, 01:52:50 PM ---KWRBT,
I disagree with you on this topic. There is much evidence that biblical men wore peyot, this is why it is one of the commandments.
--- End quote ---
Muman, it is not ME you disagree with, but it is the facts that you disagree with. I am only presenting the facts, uncomfortable as they may be to some of you.
The Chassidic movement began with the Baal Shem Tov who lived until around 1760. There was no such thing as a "chassidic" guy before that time. Their unique style of dress and even their haircut was an elaboration of certain mitzvot that already existed but which were NOT practiced in that way up until that time. They INNOVATED. It was a movement of INNOVATION. Innovation is not forbidden by the Torah. Often it is even encouraged. A Chiddush is innovation. Innovation is only bad if it is against Torah. To extend one's payoth well beyond the required length is not a violation of Torah. However it is not the requirement to be yotzi the mitzvah! So while innovation is not forbidden by Torah, what is forbidden is to distort the truth. And to claim that a recent innovation goes back to Mt. Sinai is a distortion.
"There is much evidence that biblical men wore peyot,"
No, there is none. And none has been shown in this thread. Only some vague speculation that had nothing to do with the verse cited.
--- Quote --- We have argued about this several times and you have yet to prove your point. It seems you are arguing from the point of your own opinion and not based on scripture or any teaching of any respected Rabbi.
--- End quote ---
Here we go, the "argument from authority" stuff.... I have met many "respected rabbis" who do not wear chassidic style "payoth." In fact, MY ROSH YESHIVA does not wear them. He has a standard haircut with hair long enough to not violate the prohibition. No hanging or curling or dangling. If you claim that my rosh yeshiva is "not respected" you'll have to take it up with Rav Eliyashiv, Rav Shteinman, Rav Shternbuch, and countless other gedolim he is personally friends with (not to mention the many he was close with in his life who are no longer with us, such as Rav Wolbe ZT"L and Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ZT"L) and ask them why they respect my rosh yeshiva. My gemara rabbi (a genius and well respected) also does not sport "payoth" like you describe.
While we are on the subject of sources, can you show me in Shas where it says to dangle your payoth down to your neck?
--- Quote ---I have heard it said from several rabbis, both Chassidic and Non-Chassidic that peyot are a commandment.
--- End quote ---
The commandment is a negative commandment (a prohibition) that says: in Vayikra (Leviticus) ch 19 verse 27
. לֹא תַקִּפוּ פְּאַת רֹאשְׁכֶם וְלֹא תַשְׁחִית אֵת פְּאַת זְקָנֶךָ
27. You shall not round off the corner of your head, and you shall not destroy the edge of your beard.
(from Chabad.org)
Not rounding the corner of your head is achieved by a very thinly trimmed sideburn.
There are those like the chassidic sects who innovatively "beautified" the mitzvah by extending the payoth very long and some of them not cutting them at all. But the mitzvah itself does not require that. If you were told that, you were misled.
This issue is so pashut that there shouldn't be any need to quote any sources. Alas, I bring you the pasuk which states the actual prohibition, and perhaps there are some sources who state specifically that the hasidic style payoth are not necessary. Perhaps the shas gives actual dimensions for the hair, I'm not sure. I will check with my rabbi and report back to you.
--- Quote ---And there is much evidence I can produce which shows that this is a distinctive Jewish hair-style which was kept by all the Patriarchs and Jews for many centuries.
--- End quote ---
LOL.
--- Quote ---I dont know why you are so opposed to them? What is the purpose of denying a commandment?
--- End quote ---
Here you go again with your misinterpretations. Did I ever say I'm "opposed" to chassidic-style payoth? NO! Did I ever deny the existence of the negative commandment? NO.
In fact I said earlier in this very thread:
" Any type of sideburn that is long enough to grasp with the fingertips (go with a #2 or higher, a #1 or a buzz cut probably is too short) is sufficient to be called "payoth" or in reality, to fit with the negative commandment that a person should not shave the corners of his head."
And
"That is what the Torah speaks about. A prohibition to shave the corners of the head (in the area of the so-called "payoth" but it is not termed that way). If you have thin trimmed sideburns (and they don't have to go below the ear, either), you have successfully avoided this transgression. What you are speaking about is a custom that developed later in Jewish history and is not necessary for a Jew to keep in order to be a practicing and kosher Jew."
And
"Payoth? It seems that halachically any small sideburns suffice for that. Nowhere does it say you have to grow them like chassidim do, although those are good too."
Muman, it is very tiresome to have to go back and cut and paste from my own statements. Please read more carefully or at least do not overreact in an emotional way to my position and then distort it.
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