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Don’t Be Weird Grow A Beard!!!

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muman613:
Then will you please explain why the Talmud, which was written so many years before the Innovations of the Chassidim, contains mention about not cutting the peyot? That is not explained by your explaination.

Also as Sephardic Panther has stated, the Temeni Jews also grew their peyot long and they have, what you consider, the most authentic remnant of original Jewish observance around today. Did they have contact with the Chassids in Ukraine?

I am not trying to argue, and maybe I sounded emotional, and I am not trying to prove that every Jew must wear them... But I do believe it is something a proud Jew should do in order to proclaim his love of the mitzvot.

 

Kahane-Was-Right BT:

--- Quote from: muman613 on December 21, 2009, 02:42:13 PM ---Then will you please explain why the Talmud, which was written so many years before the Innovations of the Chassidim, contains mention about not cutting the peyot? That is not explained by your explaination. 
--- End quote ---

The Talmud is explaining the pasuk from Torah, and explaining it the same way the Torah relates.  Paya (plural payoth) refers to the corners of the head.  You can't "round" the corners which means remove all the hair there.  It is a negative commandment.   

The machloketh in Talmud is over what consitutes the "corner."  It does not mean that hair from the top of the head or at the top of the corner must hang all the way down to the bottom of the corner and/or below it, or to never be cut at all.  It means that any place within the "corner" that hair grows cannot be shaved off with a razor and according to strict opinion it cannot be so short that you can't bend it with the fingertips.   This is why I said not to get closer than a #2 haircut because that is the strict view le'hathila.  Leaving a little length falls in line with the strict view.

BTW, about sources, the Chatham Sofer says explicitly that they have no makor (source) for the chassidic way of payoth, it is purely a minhag that was originated by some Jews.  There is no source in chazal or Talmud, rishonim etc.


--- Quote ---Also as Sephardic Panther has stated, the Temeni Jews also grew their peyot long and they have, what you consider, the most authentic remnant of original Jewish observance around today. Did they have contact with the Chassids in Ukraine?
--- End quote ---

Interestingly they never called them payoth, they called them simanim, which in English means "Signs."  They were signs to distinguish them by their haircut from nonJews in appearance, and the Muslim ruler demanded that they adopt simanim.  In any case, they don't have a makor (source) either, even if they claim the tradition goes back, but who among Yemenites claims that?   It seems it is you guys that are claiming that in their name.   Did Rav Kapach ZT'L the greatest Teymani Gadol of the recent generation sport chassidic-style payoth?  NO.



I don't see any there, do you?


--- Quote ---I am not trying to argue, and maybe I sounded emotional, and I am not trying to prove that every Jew must wear them ... 
--- End quote ---

Now you are saying something different.  Can you see that you have changed your argument here?   I reacted to the phony claims here that every Jew must sport chassidic-style Payoth, which is completely false, and also the very weak attempts to claim that this action dates back to Biblical times (no proof of that) or that the deoraissa commandment in the Torah is obligating that.   FALSE.    It is a recent innovation and a beautification of the mitzvah that the Chassidic movement spearheaded.


--- Quote ---But I do believe it is something a proud Jew should do in order to proclaim his love of the mitzvot.

--- End quote ---

You are free to believe that and no one can begrudge you such a belief.  Neither would I attempt to begrudge you that.  But don't claim it's a halachic statement or that there is any source to such a belief.   It is fair for you to hold that way.  But Jews here must know that the real requirement is not as such.   The requirements they need to know about include being Shomer Shabbath, eating only with kashruth, laying tefillin, etc.   If they wish to beautify a mitzvah like payoth - bevakasha, go right ahead, but don't pretend that a person is not a kosher Jew if he has normal sideburns without any chassidic-style payoth.

Sefardic Panther:

--- Quote from: muman613 on December 20, 2009, 09:35:52 PM ---Many Ashkenazic Jews had Peyot and the Germans made many of the Jews shave them off

--- End quote ---

Also lets not forget that ben gurion’s hiloni stormtroopers cut the beards and payoth off all the Temanim under some phony “hygiene regulation”. Any Temani who refused was beaten up and thrown in jail. Beards and payoth should be a badge of honor in memory of events like this.

Muman613 that is an extremely interesting article from Chabad.org. Hair does indeed have a lot of power. Note that all of Samson's powers came from his hair and after the shiksa cut all his hair off he had no power at all. Nazarites have the power of prophecy and all their power comes from letting their hair grow. And it would be interesting if Yitshaq, Yaqov, Yosef and Eliyahu HaNavi had payoth. Because they were all noted for having the power of prophecy.

Sefardic Panther:

--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 21, 2009, 12:44:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 20, 2009, 07:10:22 PM ---Men curling their hair to be stylish sounds a bit boy george. And indeed Yosef HaTsadiq and Eliyahu HaNavi were ridiculed for curling their hair. I am sure they had spiritual reasons for this practice which would otherwise be fairly effeminate.


--- End quote ---

Culturally it may be considered "effeminate" to do so nowadays, but back then it was likely different.  Cultural norms change.   Men used to wear jewelry in Biblical times as well, and that was not considered feminine.

--- End quote ---

Well the people who ridiculed Yosef and Eliyahu HaNavi were the people in that era who knew them. So that is fairly good evidence for my point.


--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 21, 2009, 12:46:52 PM ---Like I said, Teymanim were forced to wear "payoth" by the Muslim govt to separate them from the Non-Jews
--- End quote ---

And like I said I find that hard to believe because the Hasidim who lived half way across the world had the exact same hairstyle even though the Temanim and the Hasidim had never seen each other. Or do you think the king of Yemen traveled to eastern europe and after seeing the Jews there he thought it would be a good idea to make the Jews in Yemen grow the same hairstyle? Or did the king of Yemen study the Torah and decide to make the Jews grow a distinguishing hairstyle based on the Mitswa not to round off the corners of the head? I never knew that goy leaders derived their aparteid laws for Jews from the Torah.


--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 21, 2009, 12:50:59 PM ---What do you mean hasidim "have always" had the exact same style?   "Hasidim" (those followers of Hasidic Judaism) have only been in existence for about 300 years (or less).

--- End quote ---

Even 300 years ago there was little or no contact between east and west. Did the Baal Shem Tov travel to Yemen and get the idea for payoth from the king’s aparteid laws?

There are a lot of Temanim in Israel who still have payoth even though there is no muslim government to force it on them.


Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak

Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak Shlita is extremely knowledgeable in every field and he has brought thousands of secular Israeli youth back to Judaism.



Mori Michael Shelomo Bar-Ron

I think Mori Michael is a rationalistic/non Hasidic staunch follower of the Rambam like yourself and Rav Kapach. Check his website – http://www.torathmoshe.com/

And he still has payoth!!

Kahane-Was-Right BT:
WOW!  This is astounding!    Normally I do not get into games about saying who is a greater/etc rabbi than whom, but this is absolutely ridiculous!   Truly unbelievable what my eyes behold in this thread. 

With all due respect to Rabbi Amnon Yisshaq shlita, I cannot believe that you even dare suggest he is somehow above the level of Rabbi Yosef Kapach ZT"L or even in his league!   As if it somehow matters that he wears simanim, whereas Rabbi Kapach did not, and we should trust one over the other.   This is beyond absurd. 

As far as I know, Rabbi Yitzhak does not even pasken halacha.  Of course Rabbi Kapach was quite obviously a posek par excellence.   Not to mention Rabbi Amnon Yisshaq's relative youth (certainly he was even younger during Rabbi Kapach's time - Rav Kapach passed away in 2000), and his focus has been kiruv, which prevents as much scholarship or publication.  Rabbi Yosef Kapach ZT"L was a dayan on the beit din hagadol of Yerushalayim, and not only was he the greatest Teymani Gadol of his time, I question whether any of the non-Teymani gedolim even approach him in wisdom aside from a very select few who were/are very exceptional who were/are likely in a class with Rav Kapach.   Perhaps the Chazon Ish and Rav Kook (both more like a prior generation), and more contemporary Rav Kanievsky, Rav Ovadia, maybe less than a handful of others.  That is a very very select few.   In Yemen, Rav Kapach became the authority and teacher of the Sana'a community at the age of 14! 

Wikipedia has this to say:  "He wrote and studied extensively on the heritage of Yemenite Jews. He published a book under the title of “Halichot Teman”, and edited the “Shivat Tzion” tiklal, a Yemenite prayer book reflecting the views of Maimonides in three volumes. In 1993 he published a new version under the title of “Siach Yerushalayim” in four volumes (most other editions now have six)."

His scholarship is truly unparalleled.   Wikipedia lists many of his other numerous achievements and reflects his tireless efforts throughout his life to preserve and spread the Holy Torah.

Would he not wear payoth if this indeed was to him not only the custom, but binding obligation of Yemenite Judaism?   For some reason he would just omit that mitzvah from his arsenal?   What a complete joke and total stupidity.  And he obviously knew whether it was a custom or not, and in what way it became so.

It also says there:
"In his leadership of the Yemenite community in Israel he endeavored to maintain peace between the main factions in the community and worked to preserve Yemenite customs."

Apparently not the 'custom' of simanim?

It is truly ironic that you also cite Mori Michael Bar-Ron who will be the first to tell you that he is nowhere near the level of his esteemed teacher Rabbi Kapach ZT"L whom he learned under for years.  I'm sure it would take many decades before Mori Bar-Ron could even ask the question whether he has come CLOSE to the level of his rebbe, Rav Kapach.   Although I'm sure he'd be too modest to even consider such a stupid and silly question which is beneath him to do such a thing.  But for someone who speaks ignorantly in his name, ie you, for sure they would have to wait many many years before they could even postulate about that question, let alone suggest that he had reached the level of his teacher!   Unbelievable is the astouding ignorance displayed in this thread.

So the fact that some Teymani Jews wear simanim to this day, even great Jews like Mori Bar-Ron and Rabbi Yisshaq, has no bearing on the discussion.   Rav Kapach had universal recognition as a gadol and did not wear them.  That just goes to prove to you that you cannot pretend anymore.   All I even need is one great rabbi to disprove you. 

The fact remains that there are no chassidic-payoth or simanim in that picture (or others of the rabbi) and the fact that you would actually attack the gadluth of a talmid chacham (a truly wise and unique one at that) to try to degrade his status relative to others who behave differently, in order to push your dishonest agenda in the name of Torah, over how you FEEL people should do things, proves that you are merely distorting the truth and desecrating Hashem's Torah with no interest in halacha or reality, rather than approaching things with an open mind.  What a disgrace.

Like I have already pointed out, no less than the Chatham Sofer writes explicitly that the chassidic Jews who wear these elaborate style payoth developed their own custom and have no makor for it (no source).   Meaning it does not go back to biblical times in his opinion, not even close.   Purely custom.  So can you drop the lies now and stop claiming that every Jew is Biblically required to wear chassidic-style payoth, or will you keep trying to deceive people with smoke and mirrors and by playing games about elevating rabbis who wear them and disrespecting those rabbis who do not?    Please cease this rubbish and save yourself from sinning further.




I think enough has been said in this thread and I request the moderators of the forum to lock this thread in order to prevent anyone from purveying any additional sheker.  I wish to protect my friends on the forum from going astray with their distortions, and I wish to protect also those I don't know on the forum from being led astray by their distortions.    What needed to be said has been said, and both sides had their voice.   This should end now.

Actually I retract the request to lock the thread, as it should be left open to give you an opportunity to do teshuva here.   Otherwise I request a stop to this discussion if for anything other than a retraction/act of teshuva.

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