Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
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IsraeliGovtAreKapos:
בס"ד
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 22, 2009, 06:37:47 PM ---
--- Quote from: JNA on December 22, 2009, 06:33:47 PM --- בס"ד
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 22, 2009, 06:19:14 PM ---I cannot understand why Natory Qarta gets there pictures taken with the leaders of the PLO and hamas even though a few years ago a subhuman savage from hamas detonated himself on a bus full of children from Meah Shearim.
Do they do this to annoy the hiloni government?
--- End quote ---
Not all of them are like this. They're the "religious" form of self-hating Jews.
--- End quote ---
Are you so sure? There is a religious reason that the NK is anti-Zionist... I have looked into their reasoning and it is not self-hatred, according to what I learned. Their problem is that they don't think that Jews can occupy the land without Hashem first giving us permission through the nations of the world. As it is written in Torah that if the Jews don't keep Torah that the land will vomit them out... That for Jews to fight to stay in the land when they are exiled, like the time after the golden calf incident in the midbar, they will be defeated by their inferior enemies. All those Jews who tried to go into the promised land from the midbar, against Moses command, died trying to enter the land...
Of course I don't agree with what NK does and I am not making any excuse.... But to simply call them self-hating is a very gross oversimplification of the reason NK is anti-zionist.
--- End quote ---
I wasn't talking about NK as a group. I was talking about these specific people who literally betray the Jewish people and HaShem, support the Arab muderers, etc (like those who are pictured). There is a Halachic debate, that's true (you already know on what side I am), but that does NOT justify the support for murder of fellow Jews, and support the desecration of the Name of Heaven, ceou tout.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Muman,
The Satmar chassidim are the paragon of anti-zionism and even the Satmar do not find halachic justification for the insanity of the Naturei Karta and even the Satmar excommunicated the Naturei Karta. I cannot see any room to justify anything an NK does or says. For crying out loud, the NK's go on national tv wearing the PLO flag. These are evil traitors whom we pray for their destruction 3 times every day.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 22, 2009, 06:43:41 PM ---Muman,
The Satmar chassidim are the paragon of anti-zionism and even the Satmar do not find halachic justification for the insanity of the Naturei Karta and even the Satmar excommunicated the Naturei Karta. I cannot see any room to justify anything an NK does or says. For crying out loud, the NK's go on national tv wearing the PLO flag. These are evil traitors whom we pray for their destruction 3 times every day.
--- End quote ---
Did I bring up Satmar? I didn't intend to... And the closest I have come to NK is Satmar, but there are certainly differences...
But if you read the wiki page for NK this is what it says that they believe:
--- Quote ---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_karta
Neturei Karta stresses what is said in the mussaf Shemona Esrei of Yom Tov, that because of their sins the Jewish people went into exile from the Land of Israel ("umipnei chatoeinu golinu meiartzeinu"). Additionally, they maintain the view - basing it on the Babylonian Talmud [8] - that any form of forceful recapture of the Land of Israel is a violation of divine will. They believe that the restoration of the Land of Israel to the Jews should only happen with the coming of the Messiah, not by self-determination.
Neturei Karta believes that the exile of the Jews can only end with the arrival of the Messiah, and that human attempts to establish Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel are sinful. In Neturei Karta's view, Zionism is a presumptuous affront against G-d.
Rabbi Moshe Hirsch, a leader of the smaller and more radical group within Neturei Karta,[4] has endorsed Yasser Arafat, the Palestine Liberation Organization and later, the Palestinian Authority as the rightful rulers of the Land of Israel, which includes the modern-day State of Israel. Other Jewish groups, including anti-Zionist ones, have criticized this alignment, describing it as condoning or even abetting Palestinian political violence or using Palestinians as a tool for the destruction of Israel.[9][10][11]
The Neturei Karta synagogues follow the customs of the Gaon of Vilna, due to Neturei Karta's origin within the Lithuanian rather than Chasidic branch of ultra-Orthodox Judaism. Neturei Karta is not a Hasidic but a Litvish group, they are often mistaken for Hasidim because their style of dress (including a shtreimel on Shabbos) is very similar to that of Hasidim. This style of dress is not unique to Neturei Karta, but is also the style of other Jerusalem Litvaks, such as Rabbi Yosef Sholom Eliashiv and his followers. Furthermore, Shomer Emunim a Hasidic group but with a similar anti-Zionist ideology, is often bundled together with Neturei Karta. Typically, the Jerusalem Neturei Karta will keep the customs of the "Old Yishuv" of the city of Jerusalem even when living outside of Jerusalem or even when living abroad, as a demonstration of their love and connection to the Holy Land.
--- End quote ---
I OBVIOUSLY AM ZIONIST AND STAND FIRM AGAINST NK. I SIMPLY POINT OUT WHAT THEY SAY THEY BELIEVE. I HAVE REBUKED THEM NUMEROUS TIMES
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
No Muman, you did not bring up Satmar. I did.
I did so for a reason. If you read my post carefully you'll understand why.
It seems you attempted to justify the NK group because their supposed ideology has 'Torah basis.' This cannot be further from the truth.
I brought the example of Satmar, whom I find misguided in their hashkafa, but whom are halachic Jews nonetheless, because Satmar EXCOMMUNICATED Naturei Karta. This means that not even Satmar, staunch anti-zionists can find a grounds to justify Naturie Karta or its beliefs, and yet for some reason you try to do that here in this thread on the basis of "legitimate" antizionist hashkafa. Do you not see a problem here?
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 22, 2009, 06:47:38 PM ---No Muman, you did not bring up Satmar. I did.
I did so for a reason. If you read my post carefully you'll understand why.
It seems you attempted to justify the NK group because their supposed ideology has 'Torah basis.' This cannot be further from the truth.
I brought the example of Satmar, whom I find misguided in their hashkafa, but whom are halachic Jews nonetheless, because Satmar EXCOMMUNICATED Naturei Karta. This means that not even Satmar, staunch anti-zionists can find a grounds to justify Naturie Karta or its beliefs, and yet for some reason you try to do that here in this thread on the basis of "legitimate" antizionist hashkafa. Do you not see a problem here?
--- End quote ---
I know Satmar Chassids and they are good people. I don't know NK and I hope to never know any one of them. I do not forgive them for their position. To me the Mitzvah "Do not stand idle as your brother bleeds" overrides the anti-state stance they take. Also the Torah gives us commandments "So that we may live", which is why we can violate even Shabbat in order to save a life. Ahavat Yisroel is another important mitzvah which even overrides saving a non-Jew. There are so many Torah reasons I abhor what NK does that I could go on and on with reasons NK is wrong.
But when we look at how rotten the state of Israel has become because of secular-zionism I sometimes wonder in my mind why Hashem has allowed this to happen. Secular Zionism is not good for the Jewish people, it leads to the problems we are seeing today in Israel, such as the Barak VS Har Bracha Yeshiva....
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