In Regard To Ron Ben Michael

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

There have been some unfortunate arguments recently between Ron Ben Michael and members of our great forum. Some forum members have wondered why I continue to defend Ron under these circumstances.

But first, I want to say that Ron is completely devoted to the cause of Israel and the Jewish people. He has therefore agreed to no longer engage in arguments with forum members so long as there is an emergency situation in Judea and Samaria.

Now why do I always defend Ron despite all of the past unfortunate arguing?

1. Ron is single-handedly responsible for most of the hectic activity on our Hebrew forum lately. He opens fascinating new posts, creates interesting and fun polls, makes Hebrew videos promoting Hayamin Haamiti, and even answers our Hebrew members' questions with videos which are then uploaded to youtube and flix. Ron brings life and excitement and vitality to our Hebrew forum. He is loved by everyone on the Hebrew forum. I made a Hebrew video honoring Ron, and the response from our members was very strong.

2. Ron is a 16 year old Israeli Jew. He has lived in Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) all of his life. Therefore, Hebrew is his native language. In Hebrew, Ron is a genius. He writes like a professor. In addition, Ron knows English, Russian and Arabic. So this 16 year old kid already speaks four completely different and difficult languages.

I am convinced that Ron has the potential to become a future leader. And I am sure we can all agree that on the Hebrew forum, Ron is helping enormously.

Now to all of our great members who got caught up in the unnecessary arguing that has taken place:

Please accept my personal apology. I expect things to be much better now, G-d willing. Let us work together again for this noble cause.

Thank you so much and G-d bless you.

By the way, my fever is down to 101 degrees F. this morning. Yeahhhhhhhhhhhh! Still too high but much better. I can't wait to get back to the forum!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Chaim, I don't have a problem with Ron Ben Michael arguing with me, anyway.  So no need to apologize.   I think you helped explain his point of view in ask JTF and I don't blame him for it, even if I disagree in a certain way.   There is a truth in what he is saying, but at the same time, it's important not to assume the worst about everybody, or to include everyone under the same umbrella, that's all.  There are good and bad people in all groups, including Jews including gentiles and even including Muslim gentiles (or so-called Muslims). But I agree that it is better if we focus on what we have in common and work toward common goals, rather than constantly stress the differences.  I think that is a fair and wise approach.  Refuah Sheleima.

[Spectator]

Chaim, I feel I must say some blunt words.

It seems Ron is not aware that Judaism forbids to rely on miracles. To deliberately seek conflicts with the gentiles, to alienate and enrage them against the Jews is to rely on miracles (that G-d will need to do to save us from them). It is worse than to stay in the middle of the vibrant highway and and believe that G-d will save him from the passing trucks. True, the Jews depend only on Hashem but it is forbidden to test His love to us.

Keep in mind that this site is viewed not only by our supporters. By his actions he may endanger the Jews of the Galut. This may outweigh all the most important things that he does on the Hebrew forum (he really does them and I acknowlegde his great contribution). But all the great achievements do not worth a single Jewish life.

He is 16, and in Judaism 13 year-old man is fully responsible for his actions and is obliged to follow the commandments.

Ron, you certainly have potential to become a great leader of the Jewish people but to realize it you must learn to acknowledge your mistakes. Do as Yehuda ben Yaakov did. Sacrifice your ego for the sake of the Jewish people. Ask forgiveness for the injust attacks on Gentile members of the forum. This will only bring you more respect and honor.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Chaim, I feel I must say some blunt words.

It seems Ron is not aware that Judaism forbids to rely on miracles. To deliberately seek conflicts with the gentiles, to alienate and enrage them against the Jews is to rely on miracles (that G-d will need to do to save us from them). It is worse than to stay in the middle of the vibrant highway and and believe that G-d will save him from the passing trucks. True, the Jews depend only on Hashem but it is forbidden to test His love to us.

Keep in mind that this site is viewed not only by our supporters. By his actions he may endanger the Jews of the Galut. This may outweigh all the most important things that he does on the Hebrew forum (he really does them and I acknowlegde his great contribution). But all the great achievements do not worth a single Jewish life.

He is 16, and in Judaism 13 year-old man is fully responsible for his actions and is obliged to follow the commandments.

Ron, you certainly have potential to become a great leader of the Jewish people but to realize it you must learn to acknowledge your mistakes. Do as Yehuda ben Yaakov did. Sacrifice your ego for the sake of the Jewish people. Ask forgiveness for the injust attacks on Gentile members of the forum. This will only bring you more respect and honor.

בס''ד

Spectator, I have the greatest respect for you.

But I don't believe that Ron favors intentionally seeking conflicts with Gentiles. Ron got into some heated arguments on the forum which became personal and he became very defensive. Most of the time it was Ron versus the whole forum, which can be pretty rough for a 16 year old kid. Let's give him another chance. He's agreed to stop all personal arguments.

Spectator, Ron is a lot like you. You're also a multilingual genius. In the end, you brilliant Russian Jews will be the salvation of Israel.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                             בס"ד

Chaim, I feel I must say some blunt words.

It seems Ron is not aware that Judaism forbids to rely on miracles. To deliberately seek conflicts with the gentiles, to alienate and enrage them against the Jews is to rely on miracles (that G-d will need to do to save us from them). It is worse than to stay in the middle of the vibrant highway and and believe that G-d will save him from the passing trucks. True, the Jews depend only on Hashem but it is forbidden to test His love to us.

Keep in mind that this site is viewed not only by our supporters. By his actions he may endanger the Jews of the Galut. This may outweigh all the most important things that he does on the Hebrew forum (he really does them and I acknowlegde his great contribution). But all the great achievements do not worth a single Jewish life.

He is 16, and in Judaism 13 year-old man is fully responsible for his actions and is obliged to follow the commandments.

Ron, you certainly have potential to become a great leader of the Jewish people but to realize it you must learn to acknowledge your mistakes. Do as Yehuda ben Yaakov did. Sacrifice your ego for the sake of the Jewish people. Ask forgiveness for the injust attacks on Gentile members of the forum. This will only bring you more respect and honor.

Spectator, I have to answer you cause you didn't understand me. I do not depend on miracles, not at all, I'm totally against this view, but I'm agaist depending on Gentiles and seeking for allies. Did you read Rav Kahana's Perush Ha'Maccabi?

[Every Jew AK47]

Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians..  Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron.  Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.

I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable.  My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic.  He learned at a young age.  Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.   

There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe.  I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians.  Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers.   I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here.  Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel.  Self-hating Jews are a major threat..  Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                           בס"ד

Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians..  Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron.  Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.

I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable.  My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic.  He learned at a young age.  Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.   

There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe.  I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians.  Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers.   I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here.  Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel.  Self-hating Jews are a major threat..  Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.

Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?

[Rubystars]

I hope we can all get along together as much as possible now. Ron you know four languages? That's really amazing.

Chaim I'm so happy that your fever is down! I hope you'll be completely well very soon!

[The One and Only Mo]

                                                           בס"ד

Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians..  Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron.  Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.

I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable.  My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic.  He learned at a young age.  Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.   

There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe.  I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians.  Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers.   I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here.  Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel.  Self-hating Jews are a major threat..  Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.

Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?

No man, it's over and done. Let it go and move on.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                             בס"ד

Ruby I'll guess that according to my agreement I'd answer and refute your claims later on, when the time comes.

[Rubystars]

                                                            בס"ד

Ruby I'll guess that according to my agreement I'd answer and refute your claims later on, when the time comes.

I don't feel like I've made claims but just told you how things are here. I know you have a completely different experience when dealing with Christians so I don't expect that it would be easy for you to understand where I'm coming from.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                             בס"ד

                                                            בס"ד

Ruby I'll guess that according to my agreement I'd answer and refute your claims later on, when the time comes.

I don't feel like I've made claims but just told you how things are here. I know you have a completely different experience when dealing with Christians so I don't expect that it would be easy for you to understand where I'm coming from.

I'll explain what I mean sometime else.

[The One and Only Mo]

And it's over 

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

Ron is a great patriot, if there are 1000 youths like Ron in Israel, they will help influence the israeli society as a whole. I many times miss discussing with him various topics over msn, when he is offline. At his age, the knowledge he posseses would put a 50 yr old liberal-Jew to shame.

ps:
Although Ron sometimes accuses me of supporting Russia, but still we get along very well!

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

                                                           בס"ד

Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians..  Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron.  Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.

I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable.  My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic.  He learned at a young age.  Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.   

There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe.  I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians.  Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers.   I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here.  Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel.  Self-hating Jews are a major threat..  Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.

Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?

בס''ד

No Ron, you have explained your position more than once.

On this issue of Israel supposedly "needing" allies, I agree with Ron. His view on this issue is the Torah view:

"הן עם לבדד ישכון ובגויים לא יתחשב"
(במדבר כ"ג ט)

"Lo this is a nation that shall dwell alone and not be reckoned among the nations" (Numbers 23:9).

When Israel is alone and isolated, as in the 1967 Six Day War, she wins spectacular and miraculous victories.
But when Israel depends upon international support, like in the second Lebanon war of 2006, she loses.
Why? Because if Israel has "allies", then everyone will say, "You didn't win the war because of G-d, you won because of your allies. You won because you get foreign aid from America."

However, while the Jews are forbidden to have foreign nations as allies, having the support of Gentile individuals and working with righteous Gentile individuals is certainly permitted and encouraged.

So you see, some of the things Ron stands for come right of the Bible! And all of us, Jews and Gentiles, are supposed to follow what G-d commands in the Bible.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

I hope we can all get along together as much as possible now. Ron you know four languages? That's really amazing.

Chaim I'm so happy that your fever is down! I hope you'll be completely well very soon!

בס''ד

Thank you so much Rubystars! You're the greatest!

[The One and Only Mo]

                                                           בס"ד

Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians..  Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron.  Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.

I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable.  My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic.  He learned at a young age.  Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.   

There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe.  I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians.  Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers.   I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here.  Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel.  Self-hating Jews are a major threat..  Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.

Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?

בס''ד

No Ron, you have explained your position more than once.

On this issue of Israel supposedly "needing" allies, I agree with Ron. His view on this issue is the Torah view:

"הן עם לבדד ישכון ובגויים לא יתחשב"
(במדבר כ"ג ט)

"Lo this is a nation that shall dwell alone and not be reckoned among the nations" (Numbers 23:9).

When Israel is alone and isolated, as in the 1967 Six Day War, she wins spectacular and miraculous victories.
But when Israel depends upon international support, like in the second Lebanon war of 2006, she loses.
Why? Because if Israel has "allies", then everyone will say, "You didn't win the war because of G-d, you won because of your allies. You won because you get foreign aid from America."

However, while the Jews are forbidden to have foreign nations as allies, having the support of Gentile individuals and working with righteous Gentile individuals is certainly permitted and encouraged.

So you see, some of the things Ron stands for come right of the Bible! And all of us, Jews and Gentiles, are supposed to follow what G-d commands in the Bible.

Moral of story from Chanukah, Jews are the oil, goyim are water, oil and water don't mix. Jews and goyim don't mix. In theory Ron is right, but that's not for him to decide how to run JTF. YOU make the rules here, Chaim, and you've made it abundantly clear that Gentiles are an important part of the movement, and were important even to Rav Kahane. Ron can argue all he wants, and he can bring all the proofs in the Torah, but you make the rules of JTF. In essence, he's not necessarily arguing with the Gentiles. He's arguing with your poilicies while making them feel bad. 

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

                                                           בס"ד

Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians..  Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron.  Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.

I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable.  My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic.  He learned at a young age.  Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.   

There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe.  I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians.  Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers.   I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here.  Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel.  Self-hating Jews are a major threat..  Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.

Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?

בס''ד

No Ron, you have explained your position more than once.

On this issue of Israel supposedly "needing" allies, I agree with Ron. His view on this issue is the Torah view:

"הן עם לבדד ישכון ובגויים לא יתחשב"
(במדבר כ"ג ט)

"Lo this is a nation that shall dwell alone and not be reckoned among the nations" (Numbers 23:9).

When Israel is alone and isolated, as in the 1967 Six Day War, she wins spectacular and miraculous victories.
But when Israel depends upon international support, like in the second Lebanon war of 2006, she loses.
Why? Because if Israel has "allies", then everyone will say, "You didn't win the war because of G-d, you won because of your allies. You won because you get foreign aid from America."

However, while the Jews are forbidden to have foreign nations as allies, having the support of Gentile individuals and working with righteous Gentile individuals is certainly permitted and encouraged.

So you see, some of the things Ron stands for come right of the Bible! And all of us, Jews and Gentiles, are supposed to follow what G-d commands in the Bible.

Moral of story from Chanukah, Jews are the oil, goyim are water, oil and water don't mix. Jews and goyim don't mix. In theory Ron is right, but that's not for him to decide how to run JTF. YOU make the rules here, Chaim, and you've made it abundantly clear that Gentiles are an important part of the movement, and were important even to Rav Kahane. Ron can argue all he wants, and he can bring all the proofs in the Torah, but you make the rules of JTF. In essence, he's not necessarily arguing with the Gentiles. He's arguing with your poilicies while making them feel bad. 

בס''ד

Mo, you're right, Ron disagrees with how we run JTF. Which I don't mind as long as the disagreements are civil. I agree with you, Mo, that the situation got out of hand and that's what we're changing now. There is no reason why we can't at least respect each other.
I do want to give Ron credit for something else: even though Ron thinks I'm wrong about how we run JTF, he has put that aside and invested long hours promoting our movement in Israel. When someone is willing to put aside a strong difference on an important issue because he so loves the Jewish people, that is worthy of praise in my opinion. Ron feels that all of the good that we are doing in Israel is more important than this difference of opinion that we have.

[Spectator]

Chaim, I don't have anything against Ron. Just as you treat him as your son, I treat him as my younger brother. He is not like the majority of Israeli youth who don't care about G-d and Eretz Yisrael, he is our real hope. We need more people like Ron. He certainly deserves a second, a third and a tenth chance. All I want is to help him not fall into some serious transgressions.

Therefore it is very painful to see how he's making a terrible mistake when he turns our friends to enemies and adds fuel to the fire of Jew-hatred of the devout antisemites.

Ron, nobody is going to depend on Gentiles. But there is absolutely no reason to increase the quantity and "quality" of the antisemites in the world. As I said, it is forbidden to test G-d's love to us. You say you don't intentionally provoke the gentiles and rely on miracles, well then you do it unintentionally. The difference is not that big, in any case, what you say may serve a good excuse and inspiration for a bunch of harlem negros or nazis to beat some New York Jews to half-death. I don't advocate cowardness, I advocate wisdom. Before waging war, a Jew needs to try some other methods. Hint to Yaakov Avinu.

Moreover, those goyim who are here are not our enemies, they are our friends. Torah does not allow us to be injust even to regular goyim, let alone to those who support us. To be injust to our gentile friends is a great Hillul Hashem, desecration of G-d's name. We don't want Gentiles think that Judaism teaches to disregard and humiliate them. It is not true.

Even if a gentile who supports us has some other weird or wrong ideas, we shouldn't shun his/her friendship. Nodoby is perfect. If he/she is not going to missionize or compromise the Jewish people, we must gratefully accept his friendship. After all, G-d is the one who sends us such person.

Ron, I recommend that you consult some respected National-Religious Rabbi concerning this issue, for example Rabbi Melamed. Only present the situation in full detail, including the facts that may be inconvinient to you.

I wish G-d bless us all, Jews and Righteous Gentiles.

 


 

[The One and Only Mo]

                                                           בס"ד

Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians..  Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron.  Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.

I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable.  My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic.  He learned at a young age.  Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.   

There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe.  I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians.  Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers.   I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here.  Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel.  Self-hating Jews are a major threat..  Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.

Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?

בס''ד

No Ron, you have explained your position more than once.

On this issue of Israel supposedly "needing" allies, I agree with Ron. His view on this issue is the Torah view:

"הן עם לבדד ישכון ובגויים לא יתחשב"
(במדבר כ"ג ט)

"Lo this is a nation that shall dwell alone and not be reckoned among the nations" (Numbers 23:9).

When Israel is alone and isolated, as in the 1967 Six Day War, she wins spectacular and miraculous victories.
But when Israel depends upon international support, like in the second Lebanon war of 2006, she loses.
Why? Because if Israel has "allies", then everyone will say, "You didn't win the war because of G-d, you won because of your allies. You won because you get foreign aid from America."

However, while the Jews are forbidden to have foreign nations as allies, having the support of Gentile individuals and working with righteous Gentile individuals is certainly permitted and encouraged.

So you see, some of the things Ron stands for come right of the Bible! And all of us, Jews and Gentiles, are supposed to follow what G-d commands in the Bible.

Moral of story from Chanukah, Jews are the oil, goyim are water, oil and water don't mix. Jews and goyim don't mix. In theory Ron is right, but that's not for him to decide how to run JTF. YOU make the rules here, Chaim, and you've made it abundantly clear that Gentiles are an important part of the movement, and were important even to Rav Kahane. Ron can argue all he wants, and he can bring all the proofs in the Torah, but you make the rules of JTF. In essence, he's not necessarily arguing with the Gentiles. He's arguing with your poilicies while making them feel bad. 

בס''ד

Mo, you're right, Ron disagrees with how we run JTF. Which I don't mind as long as the disagreements are civil. I agree with you, Mo, that the situation got out of hand and that's what we're changing now. There is no reason why we can't at least respect each other.
I do want to give Ron credit for something else: even though Ron thinks I'm wrong about how we run JTF, he has put that aside and invested long hours promoting our movement in Israel. When someone is willing to put aside a strong difference on an important issue because he so loves the Jewish people, that is worthy of praise in my opinion. Ron feels that all of the good that we are doing in Israel is more important than this difference of opinion that we have.

Just to be clear, if he keeps disagreeing with you on how to run JTF, will you ever listen to him and change it? If not, what will his disagreeing with you do other than upset the goyim here and potentially drive them away along with potential members. Right or wrong, there is only so much he can do if you're set in your ways before he either gives up on the issue completely or starts his own movement. And this is NOT an attack on Ron, just an observation of how far somebody can go before they either accept a rule or leave.

[Rubystars]

I hope we can all get along together as much as possible now. Ron you know four languages? That's really amazing.

Chaim I'm so happy that your fever is down! I hope you'll be completely well very soon!

בס''ד

Thank you so much Rubystars! You're the greatest!

You're welcome and thank you very much for saying such a nice thing.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Again, my only request is that we give Ron a chance to participate in our forum without all of the arguing and acrimony of the past few days. Let's see how it works out.

I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

[Dr. Dan]

Now I would like to throw my two cents and perhaps some answers can be made to help me understand the Torah point of view of having allies or not having allies etc etc.


First thing about theology.  Yes, us Jews have a completely different theology from other Gentiles.  To many Jews who know their theology really well, all other theologies look silly.  The same goes vice versa when it is, for example, Evangelical Christians who know their theology so well that our's looks silly to them.

Second thing about allies: I believe what the Torah says.  The Jew's only ally is H'shem.  But perhaps H'shem sends righteous gentiles to aid Jews...not sure. Perhaps you can shed light on this.

and why do I say that Gd can send Gentiles to help Jews?  Because there are righteous Gentiles that helped Jews throughout history and most recently during the Shoah.  Those righteous gentiles saved Jewish lives.  Where did they get the morality to do this?  From their theology...even those who come from the ones which we consider silly.

Face it, many Gentiles on JTF come here for justice for the Jews...because of their morality.  They learned it from their religion and their theology which caused them to fear a merciful Gd. 

I pose a question to Ron, who I love ...and other Jews who have the same strong beliefs on this rule:  What is the proper etiquette to a righteous Gentile who has saved a Jew's life and who wants to help save the Jewish people in the name of morality and Gd?  Can a righteous Gentile be like an agent from Gd's mercy to help Jews lift themselves up?

I feel out of common sense, which isn't completely Torah, that we should honor those righteous Gentiles who have saved Jewish lives and who want to save Jewish lives...in the name of Gd and what's holy and right.

I believe this is what Chaim also believes (and correct me if I'm wrong).  Basically, Ron, while many Gentiles believe in a theology that may seem silly to us, those same righteous Gentiles became righteous and fear Gd and also believe in wanting to save the Jewish people.  It would be wrong to shove anything down their throat and say that the way they worship is wrong when they aren't asking us what the proper way is.  Instead, we are allowed to respectfully disagree.   We should love them. We should thank H'shem for sending them to us.  And I think for those of us who go with the Torah view of things, as long as we thank H'shem for righteous Gentiles who deeply love the Jewish people and want to help the Jewish people bring about the Moshiach, we aren't doing any kind of Chilul H'shem..rather we are still maintaining that H'shem is helping us and not another nation.

The most important thing for our Gentile friends in this respect is that we truly love and appreciate their help and that they realize that if with their help a positive outcome takes place that it is an acknowledgement that it is the Almighty that is helping.

..and if I'm wrong, correct me...

[Lisa]

Thank you Dr. Dan!!!!

[The One and Only Mo]

Now I would like to throw my two cents and perhaps some answers can be made to help me understand the Torah point of view of having allies or not having allies etc etc.


First thing about theology.  Yes, us Jews have a completely different theology from other Gentiles.  To many Jews who know their theology really well, all other theologies look silly.  The same goes vice versa when it is, for example, Evangelical Christians who know their theology so well that our's looks silly to them.

Second thing about allies: I believe what the Torah says.  The Jew's only ally is H'shem.  But perhaps H'shem sends righteous gentiles to aid Jews...not sure. Perhaps you can shed light on this.

and why do I say that Gd can send Gentiles to help Jews?  Because there are righteous Gentiles that helped Jews throughout history and most recently during the Shoah.  Those righteous gentiles saved Jewish lives.  Where did they get the morality to do this?  From their theology...even those who come from the ones which we consider silly.

Face it, many Gentiles on JTF come here for justice for the Jews...because of their morality.  They learned it from their religion and their theology which caused them to fear a merciful Gd. 

I pose a question to Ron, who I love ...and other Jews who have the same strong beliefs on this rule:  What is the proper etiquette to a righteous Gentile who has saved a Jew's life and who wants to help save the Jewish people in the name of morality and Gd?  Can a righteous Gentile be like an agent from Gd's mercy to help Jews lift themselves up?

I feel out of common sense, which isn't completely Torah, that we should honor those righteous Gentiles who have saved Jewish lives and who want to save Jewish lives...in the name of Gd and what's holy and right.

I believe this is what Chaim also believes (and correct me if I'm wrong).  Basically, Ron, while many Gentiles believe in a theology that may seem silly to us, those same righteous Gentiles became righteous and fear Gd and also believe in wanting to save the Jewish people.  It would be wrong to shove anything down their throat and say that the way they worship is wrong when they aren't asking us what the proper way is.  Instead, we are allowed to respectfully disagree.   We should love them. We should thank H'shem for sending them to us.  And I think for those of us who go with the Torah view of things, as long as we thank H'shem for righteous Gentiles who deeply love the Jewish people and want to help the Jewish people bring about the Moshiach, we aren't doing any kind of Chilul H'shem..rather we are still maintaining that H'shem is helping us and not another nation.

The most important thing for our Gentile friends in this respect is that we truly love and appreciate their help and that they realize that if with their help a positive outcome takes place that it is an acknowledgement that it is the Almighty that is helping.

..and if I'm wrong, correct me...

As a side note, there are cases of righteous gentiles brought down in the gemara eg. Maseches Avoda Zarah which I was learning last shabbos. Obviously, circumstances as they are, there are Christians on this forum, and right or wrong, according to the Torah or not, that's just how it is, so it's an unwritten code of conduct here at JTF: If you decide to be a part of JTF, you don't criticize all members' religiou beliefs, and obviously don't have to agree with it, and just post, so long as there is no missionizing,  we will get along. If someone is afraid of exposing themselves to different religions, which is perfectly understandable, and recommended, then he/she must do what's best him/her. Kind of pointless to argue something that won't change, especially since he/she can always leave. Take it or leave it. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.