Author Topic: Americans Invent their own religion  (Read 2397 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Americans Invent their own religion
« on: December 10, 2009, 05:54:09 PM »
This story saddens me because it will result in more people who think they are Jewish and yet they have nothing Jewish about them... Americans seem to think that they can 'pick-and-choose' from a menu of religious beliefs. By doing this they confuse themselves and they confuse others. Judaism has long taught that one cannot invent his/her own religion and must either adhere to the core principles {as enumerated in Rambams 13 principles} or else be considered heretics.

When man invents his own G-d and worships it, it is a form of Idol worship and according to Jewish belief it will be destroyed. Throughout history man has invented new G-ds to suit his ego and his desires, and once again Americans seem to not learn the lesson of history.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/pew-study-finds-americans-surprisingly-flexible-faith-religion/story?id=9306080

Quote
A new poll finds Americans are doing a tremendous amount of personalizing – picking and choosing from a diverse variety of religious traditions. According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, nearly six in ten Americans from all religions blend their faith with new age and Eastern beliefs like astrology, reincarnation, and the spiritual – not just physical – benefits of yoga.

PS: It is curious because Judaism has elements of Reincarnation, Spiritual enlightenment, and even Astrology... Why would Jews be lured away from their heritage?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Every Jew AK47

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1138
  • Am Kahane Chai!
    • Good Music!
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2009, 06:06:03 PM »
At least America isn't RELIGION HATING and ATHIEST like Europe.  Most people in Europe think if you believe in religion and not in sex and partying, you are deranged and outdated.  Of course, most people in the 21st century believe in sex, partying and having fun rather than living a holy, religious life.  It's not just an AMerican problem, its a world problem.  Its sad that even in Israel, a lot of people have chosen a secular, anti-religious life than to live a strict life in their faith.
Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

Offline cjd

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8996
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2009, 06:35:39 PM »
If anything people are moving away from old world religions and going in for more trendy things like are listed in the quote...
Quote
Quote
A new poll finds Americans are doing a tremendous amount of personalizing – picking and choosing from a diverse variety of religious traditions. According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, nearly six in ten Americans from all religions blend their faith with new age and Eastern beliefs like astrology, reincarnation, and the spiritual – not just physical – benefits of yoga.
I don't think Jews are trying to be Christians and Christians are not trying to be Jews. People who are looking for a religious change today are in the market for things that are fun and easy. Why switch one whole set of religious  rules and guidelines for another?
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2009, 07:26:06 PM »
If anything people are moving away from old world religions and going in for more trendy things like are listed in the quote...
Quote
Quote
A new poll finds Americans are doing a tremendous amount of personalizing – picking and choosing from a diverse variety of religious traditions. According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, nearly six in ten Americans from all religions blend their faith with new age and Eastern beliefs like astrology, reincarnation, and the spiritual – not just physical – benefits of yoga.
I don't think Jews are trying to be Christians and Christians are not trying to be Jews. People who are looking for a religious change today are in the market for things that are fun and easy. Why switch one whole set of religious  rules and guidelines for another?
Jews ARE trying to be Christians.....it's called assimilation/deform/ etc. Welcome to the exile.

Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2009, 07:27:37 PM »
Ive known a lot of religious christians and Jews who beleive in astrology and other forms of new-aged superstitions.  Its kinda sad.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2009, 07:31:09 PM »
Ive known a lot of religious christians and Jews who beleive in astrology and other forms of new-aged superstitions.  Its kinda sad.


Judaism doesnt deny that the stars have an influence on our worldly events... This is called Mazel, or flow... When I was young I had an interest in Astrology and learned how to do star charts... But this was back when I was 14-16 years old... Almost 30 years ago...

That said, a Jew is not supposed to consult the stars... A Jew is above the stars and when we use them we lose our special status with Hashem and are left to the ravages of nature...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline GWallenberg

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 66
    • Jewish World Review
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2009, 07:32:08 PM »
At least America isn't RELIGION HATING and ATHIEST like Europe. 

Unfortunately, that sentiment is quickly gaining ground here in the US, as well. There's an all out war against Judaism and Christianity, seemingly. I don't know how bad it is in Europe, but it ain't good here, either.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4384
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2009, 07:37:24 PM »
Ive known a lot of religious christians and Jews who beleive in astrology and other forms of new-aged superstitions.  Its kinda sad.


Judaism doesnt deny that the stars have an influence on our worldly events... This is called Mazel, or flow... When I was young I had an interest in Astrology and learned how to do star charts... But this was back when I was 14-16 years old... Almost 30 years ago...

That said, a Jew is not supposed to consult the stars... A Jew is above the stars and when we use them we lose our special status with Hashem and are left to the ravages of nature...



Nah, the Rambam says Astrology is a complete nonesense.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2009, 07:38:23 PM »
Ive known a lot of religious christians and Jews who beleive in astrology and other forms of new-aged superstitions.  Its kinda sad.


Judaism doesnt deny that the stars have an influence on our worldly events... This is called Mazel, or flow... When I was young I had an interest in Astrology and learned how to do star charts... But this was back when I was 14-16 years old... Almost 30 years ago...

That said, a Jew is not supposed to consult the stars... A Jew is above the stars and when we use them we lose our special status with Hashem and are left to the ravages of nature...



Nah, the Rambam says Astrology is a complete nonesense.

Please supply the reference... i have found more information which contradicts what you are saying:

http://www.ou.org/chagim/astrology.htm

Quote
In Judaism, Astrology is not regarded as "idol worship," even though the generic name for "idol worship" is  "Avodat Kochavim U'Mazalot," Worship of the Stars and the Signs of the Zodiac."

From the Jewish perspective, the stars are not unrelated to events on earth. It is not irrelevant whether one was born on Pesach, or Yom Kippur, or Lag Ba'Omer or on any particular day. Each day is special and has a unique imprint.

On the other hand, if an individual was born under the "sign" of Mars, the Talmud says that he will have a tendency to spill blood. This tendency can be realized in a number of very different ways, however, which are subject to an individual's choice. In this case, options might be a soldier, a surgeon, a murderer, a "shochet," a ritual slaughterer of animals, or a "mohel," one who performs ritual circumcisions. These options correspond to a potential hero, a healer, one who violates the "image of G-d," to those who do "holy work" of different types.

There is a principle, "Ayn Mazal L'Yisrael," "Israel's fate is not determined by the stars." The Jew, raised in his People's traditions and Torah values, feels the reality of "freedom of choice" in his bones. So deeply ingrained is this knowledge and feeling, that the Jew rarely has cause to think about astrological factors.

It is the belief that one cannot escape from the grip of the stars that distinguishes Astrology from "Worship of the Stars and Signs of the Zodiac." It is always possible to define one's fate, by choosing behavior which is guided by morality and integrity, within the parameters - intellectual and emotional, physical and spiritual, which a person is given to work with.

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/808052/jewish/The-Torah-View-on-Astrology.htm

http://www.jewishmag.com/135mag/astrology_questions/astrology_questions.htm

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/424,60378/Jewish-Astrology.html
Quote

Sefer Yetzirah, one of the first Jewish books ever written, reveals the secrets of Jewish astrology. Throughout the Bible, Talmud and Code of Jewish Law there are fascinating descriptions of how G-d channels His life force into our world through heavenly bodies. At the same time, when one is connected to the Torah and observes its commandments, he or she is directly plugged into the Supernatural, surpassing the influences of astrological forces.

Jacob’s sons, who became the 12 tribes of Israel, are actually 12 different soul roots from which the Jewish people descend. These roots correspond with the 12 signs of the zodiac, the 12 Jewish months, 12 of the letters in the Hebrew alphabet and 12 attributes of the soul, such as sight, anger, speech and thought.

We have the ability to better ourselves at any time, but the Kabbalah delineates certain times that are more auspicious to work on certain attributes. For example, Jewish holidays do not only commemorate historical events, but are the result of heavenly forces and energies. In the month of Nissan, when we celebrate Passover, the attribute of speech is at its height—giving us the added strength to refine our attribute of communication.

According to the astrological chart, the month in which you are born indicates a hidden strength you can develop, or a weakness you can overcome; however, you are not locked into the "personality" of your month. Each of us is infused with these strengths and weaknesses. We can refine them, one by one, during the cycle of the Jewish year, as we strive for a life where the physical, mental and emotional are integrated into the spiritual.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline cjd

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8996
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2009, 07:43:09 PM »
If anything people are moving away from old world religions and going in for more trendy things like are listed in the quote...
Quote
Quote
A new poll finds Americans are doing a tremendous amount of personalizing – picking and choosing from a diverse variety of religious traditions. According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, nearly six in ten Americans from all religions blend their faith with new age and Eastern beliefs like astrology, reincarnation, and the spiritual – not just physical – benefits of yoga.
I don't think Jews are trying to be Christians and Christians are not trying to be Jews. People who are looking for a religious change today are in the market for things that are fun and easy. Why switch one whole set of religious  rules and guidelines for another?
Jews ARE trying to be Christians.....it's called assimilation/deform/ etc. Welcome to the exile.
I see social assimilation being the main  factor causing Jewish people to relax their religion and joining  reformed Jewish congregations. I really don't see the allure of other religions being the cause.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2009, 07:44:02 PM »
If anything people are moving away from old world religions and going in for more trendy things like are listed in the quote...
Quote
Quote
A new poll finds Americans are doing a tremendous amount of personalizing – picking and choosing from a diverse variety of religious traditions. According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, nearly six in ten Americans from all religions blend their faith with new age and Eastern beliefs like astrology, reincarnation, and the spiritual – not just physical – benefits of yoga.
I don't think Jews are trying to be Christians and Christians are not trying to be Jews. People who are looking for a religious change today are in the market for things that are fun and easy. Why switch one whole set of religious  rules and guidelines for another?
Jews ARE trying to be Christians.....it's called assimilation/deform/ etc. Welcome to the exile.
I see social assimilation being the main  factor causing Jewish people to relax their religion and joining  reformed Jewish congregations. I really don't see the allure of other religions being the cause.
It's ACTING in the same way.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4384
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2009, 07:44:47 PM »
                                                                    בס"ד

Ive known a lot of religious christians and Jews who beleive in astrology and other forms of new-aged superstitions.  Its kinda sad.


Judaism doesnt deny that the stars have an influence on our worldly events... This is called Mazel, or flow... When I was young I had an interest in Astrology and learned how to do star charts... But this was back when I was 14-16 years old... Almost 30 years ago...

That said, a Jew is not supposed to consult the stars... A Jew is above the stars and when we use them we lose our special status with Hashem and are left to the ravages of nature...



Nah, the Rambam says Astrology is a complete nonesense.

Please supply the reference... i have found more information which contradicts what you are saying:

http://www.ou.org/chagim/astrology.htm

Quote
In Judaism, Astrology is not regarded as "idol worship," even though the generic name for "idol worship" is  "Avodat Kochavim U'Mazalot," Worship of the Stars and the Signs of the Zodiac."

From the Jewish perspective, the stars are not unrelated to events on earth. It is not irrelevant whether one was born on Pesach, or Yom Kippur, or Lag Ba'Omer or on any particular day. Each day is special and has a unique imprint.

On the other hand, if an individual was born under the "sign" of Mars, the Talmud says that he will have a tendency to spill blood. This tendency can be realized in a number of very different ways, however, which are subject to an individual's choice. In this case, options might be a soldier, a surgeon, a murderer, a "shochet," a ritual slaughterer of animals, or a "mohel," one who performs ritual circumcisions. These options correspond to a potential hero, a healer, one who violates the "image of G-d," to those who do "holy work" of different types.

There is a principle, "Ayn Mazal L'Yisrael," "Israel's fate is not determined by the stars." The Jew, raised in his People's traditions and Torah values, feels the reality of "freedom of choice" in his bones. So deeply ingrained is this knowledge and feeling, that the Jew rarely has cause to think about astrological factors.

It is the belief that one cannot escape from the grip of the stars that distinguishes Astrology from "Worship of the Stars and Signs of the Zodiac." It is always possible to define one's fate, by choosing behavior which is guided by morality and integrity, within the parameters - intellectual and emotional, physical and spiritual, which a person is given to work with.

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/808052/jewish/The-Torah-View-on-Astrology.htm

http://www.jewishmag.com/135mag/astrology_questions/astrology_questions.htm

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/424,60378/Jewish-Astrology.html
Quote

Sefer Yetzirah, one of the first Jewish books ever written, reveals the secrets of Jewish astrology. Throughout the Bible, Talmud and Code of Jewish Law there are fascinating descriptions of how G-d channels His life force into our world through heavenly bodies. At the same time, when one is connected to the Torah and observes its commandments, he or she is directly plugged into the Supernatural, surpassing the influences of astrological forces.

Jacob’s sons, who became the 12 tribes of Israel, are actually 12 different soul roots from which the Jewish people descend. These roots correspond with the 12 signs of the zodiac, the 12 Jewish months, 12 of the letters in the Hebrew alphabet and 12 attributes of the soul, such as sight, anger, speech and thought.

We have the ability to better ourselves at any time, but the Kabbalah delineates certain times that are more auspicious to work on certain attributes. For example, Jewish holidays do not only commemorate historical events, but are the result of heavenly forces and energies. In the month of Nissan, when we celebrate Passover, the attribute of speech is at its height—giving us the added strength to refine our attribute of communication.

According to the astrological chart, the month in which you are born indicates a hidden strength you can develop, or a weakness you can overcome; however, you are not locked into the "personality" of your month. Each of us is infused with these strengths and weaknesses. We can refine them, one by one, during the cycle of the Jewish year, as we strive for a life where the physical, mental and emotional are integrated into the spiritual.


I only have a Hebrew resource, is it ok for you? (if not, you can look up for Igeret Teiman in English)

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2009, 07:46:31 PM »
Shalom Ron,

Just point me to the Sefer, Chapter and Line #... I will be able to find it...

Thanks
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2009, 07:50:34 PM »
Ron,

To be honest I found the following concerning Rambams position concerning Astrology... You are correct that he doesnt agree with Chazal about it...

This does discuss the idea which I brought out concerning the fact that Jews are above Mazel..



http://www.cckollel.org/html/Parasha/bereishis/Lechlicha-2002.htm
Halacha Encounters
Astrology in Halacha

Rabbi Ari Friedman

Throughout Shas and the Medrashim, Chazal often attribute both world events and people’s destinies to Mazal.  Mazal is defined as the power given by Hashem to the celestial bodies to influence His world.  In spite of this, the Gemara states clearly that from the Pasuk “Tamim Tihiyeh im Hashem Elokecha,  And you shall be pure before Hashem your G-d” we are prohibited to consult with stargazers (Devarim, 18, 13; Psachim 113b). The Shulchan Aruch also mentions this prohibition (Y.D. 179-1). Let us explore this topic and attempt to clarify its Halachic ramifications.

To begin, the Rambam (A.Z. 11, 8-9) writes that to calculate times of good or bad luck, or to take action based on astrology is an issur lo sa’aseh (negative commandment) grouped with other prohibitions of witchcraft and sorcery.  Even consulting with astrologers without taking any action upon their conclusions is prohibited, for it is dealing with falsehood. The Rambam goes on to explain his opinion that all such practices are utter foolishness.  This stance of the Rambam is expressed throughout his many writings. He always claims that astrology, sorcery and the like are baseless practices and those who claim to predict the future based on stars are either fools or fooling others.

Many Rishonim, namely the Ramban (Teshuvos Hameyuchasos #283) strongly disagree with the Rambam, citing numerous ma’amarei Chazal (statements of our Sages found in the Talmud) validating astrology. They maintain that although the Torah prohibits such practices, there is nevertheless real wisdom to be found in astrology.

Now that we have presented this view, let us continue and understand a Midrash quoted by Rashi in this week’s Parasha (15,5 Shabbos 156B).  Avraham says to Hashem, “I have looked into my astrology and I am unfit to bear a child.”  Hashem replies to this observation, “ Leave your astrology, Ein Mazal L’Yisrael (There is no such concept as “Mazal” when it somes to the Jewish People).”  Hashem continues, “On what basis do you determine this?  Is it because Tzedek (Jupiter) is in the west- (the cold region signifying the inability to bear children)?  I will move it to the east.” The Gemora continues to relate other instances where astrologers predicted misfortunes which were avoided through the z’chus (merit) of tefillah or tzedaka.  The Rishonim explain that all agree that the constellations influence events in this world.  “Ein Mazal L’Yisrael” means that B’nai Yisrael have the ability to override their supposed fate through Torah and Mitzvos. Only those who are not close to Hashem are thrust under the “rule” of the constellations, but as members of Klal Yisrael, we may rise above any intermediary (Nimukei Yosef Sanhedrin 16B, Ran,Tosfos in Shabbos see also Sifsei Chaim on Mazalos)

It is for this reason that the Torah tells us “Tamim Tihyeh.”  Do not look into astrology - you are above it.  However, the Ramban adds, although the Torah prohibits us to approach astrologers and inquire regarding our Mazal, if they happen to inform us and warn us to be aware of a certain bad Mazal, we must heed their warning and not rely on a miracle.  Only someone of Avraham Avinu’s caliber is expected to totally ignore Mazal.

What remains for us to clarify is that the Gemora itself discusses various Mazalos and their effect on people.  For example, the Gemora states that somone born under the Mazal Tzedek (Saturn) will be charitable.  And someone born under Ma’adim (Mars) will be a spiller of blood.  How could Chazal involve themselves in a practice which is seemingly assur? The explanation seems to be that the Torah prohibition is to predict with accuracy future events. The future is controlled ultimately by Hashem and we need not delve into astrology.  What Chazal are telling us when discussing Mazalos is that people under the influence of a certain Mazal may have a tendency and predisposition towards a particular trait. This knowledge may be used to direct a person in building and developing his character. Other statements made by Chazal regarding Mazalos should be understood in this vein as well.

As for the Halacha in our times, those posing as astrologers may be assur to consult with for either of two possibilities.

1- They are genuine astrologers (highly doubtful) and thereby assur because of  “Tamim Tihiyeh”.

2- They are phonies and are assur under the law of “Lo Senachashu” (see Ramban and Tamim Tihieh p. 26-34).

However, the study of Chachmas Hamazalos in the nature of Chazal as mentioned above is permitted. As for the horoscopes featured in various publications, they should be treated with the same seriousness as the rest of the material contained within those pages.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4384
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2009, 07:57:53 PM »
                                                             בס"ד

Shalom Ron,

Just point me to the Sefer, Chapter and Line #... I will be able to find it...

Thanks


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Yemen/XIII (I hope the translation is cool, you know "secular" Jews like Boaz Cohen..)

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4384
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2009, 08:02:15 PM »
                                                                 בס"ד

Ron,

To be honest I found the following concerning Rambams position concerning Astrology... You are correct that he doesnt agree with Chazal about it...

This does discuss the idea which I brought out concerning the fact that Jews are above Mazel..



http://www.cckollel.org/html/Parasha/bereishis/Lechlicha-2002.htm
Halacha Encounters
Astrology in Halacha

Rabbi Ari Friedman

Throughout Shas and the Medrashim, Chazal often attribute both world events and people’s destinies to Mazal.  Mazal is defined as the power given by Hashem to the celestial bodies to influence His world.  In spite of this, the Gemara states clearly that from the Pasuk “Tamim Tihiyeh im Hashem Elokecha,  And you shall be pure before Hashem your G-d” we are prohibited to consult with stargazers (Devarim, 18, 13; Psachim 113b). The Shulchan Aruch also mentions this prohibition (Y.D. 179-1). Let us explore this topic and attempt to clarify its Halachic ramifications.

To begin, the Rambam (A.Z. 11, 8-9) writes that to calculate times of good or bad luck, or to take action based on astrology is an issur lo sa’aseh (negative commandment) grouped with other prohibitions of witchcraft and sorcery.  Even consulting with astrologers without taking any action upon their conclusions is prohibited, for it is dealing with falsehood. The Rambam goes on to explain his opinion that all such practices are utter foolishness.  This stance of the Rambam is expressed throughout his many writings. He always claims that astrology, sorcery and the like are baseless practices and those who claim to predict the future based on stars are either fools or fooling others.

Many Rishonim, namely the Ramban (Teshuvos Hameyuchasos #283) strongly disagree with the Rambam, citing numerous ma’amarei Chazal (statements of our Sages found in the Talmud) validating astrology. They maintain that although the Torah prohibits such practices, there is nevertheless real wisdom to be found in astrology.

Now that we have presented this view, let us continue and understand a Midrash quoted by Rashi in this week’s Parasha (15,5 Shabbos 156B).  Avraham says to Hashem, “I have looked into my astrology and I am unfit to bear a child.”  Hashem replies to this observation, “ Leave your astrology, Ein Mazal L’Yisrael (There is no such concept as “Mazal” when it somes to the Jewish People).”  Hashem continues, “On what basis do you determine this?  Is it because Tzedek (Jupiter) is in the west- (the cold region signifying the inability to bear children)?  I will move it to the east.” The Gemora continues to relate other instances where astrologers predicted misfortunes which were avoided through the z’chus (merit) of tefillah or tzedaka.  The Rishonim explain that all agree that the constellations influence events in this world.  “Ein Mazal L’Yisrael” means that B’nai Yisrael have the ability to override their supposed fate through Torah and Mitzvos. Only those who are not close to Hashem are thrust under the “rule” of the constellations, but as members of Klal Yisrael, we may rise above any intermediary (Nimukei Yosef Sanhedrin 16B, Ran,Tosfos in Shabbos see also Sifsei Chaim on Mazalos)

It is for this reason that the Torah tells us “Tamim Tihyeh.”  Do not look into astrology - you are above it.  However, the Ramban adds, although the Torah prohibits us to approach astrologers and inquire regarding our Mazal, if they happen to inform us and warn us to be aware of a certain bad Mazal, we must heed their warning and not rely on a miracle.  Only someone of Avraham Avinu’s caliber is expected to totally ignore Mazal.

What remains for us to clarify is that the Gemora itself discusses various Mazalos and their effect on people.  For example, the Gemora states that somone born under the Mazal Tzedek (Saturn) will be charitable.  And someone born under Ma’adim (Mars) will be a spiller of blood.  How could Chazal involve themselves in a practice which is seemingly assur? The explanation seems to be that the Torah prohibition is to predict with accuracy future events. The future is controlled ultimately by Hashem and we need not delve into astrology.  What Chazal are telling us when discussing Mazalos is that people under the influence of a certain Mazal may have a tendency and predisposition towards a particular trait. This knowledge may be used to direct a person in building and developing his character. Other statements made by Chazal regarding Mazalos should be understood in this vein as well.

As for the Halacha in our times, those posing as astrologers may be assur to consult with for either of two possibilities.

1- They are genuine astrologers (highly doubtful) and thereby assur because of  “Tamim Tihiyeh”.

2- They are phonies and are assur under the law of “Lo Senachashu” (see Ramban and Tamim Tihieh p. 26-34).

However, the study of Chachmas Hamazalos in the nature of Chazal as mentioned above is permitted. As for the horoscopes featured in various publications, they should be treated with the same seriousness as the rest of the material contained within those pages.

As I remember not all of the Rabbis (Chazal) believed in Mazal. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2009, 08:04:30 PM »
I agree with the idea that Astrology as the secular world understands it is completely false and should be ignored. But the idea of Mazel and that we are born under stars which influence our potential makes sense to me. It is not good to consult Stars to know the future because only Hashem knows the future. But in order to know our own Middot, character traits, it may be beneficial to know what Mazel we were born with.

PS: Yes there is machlokes about this... But the story of Abraham saying that he had consulted the stars and he did not see any children in his future indicates that there has always been the concept of consulting the stars to see what mazel we have..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline FreedomFighter08

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2009, 08:07:21 PM »
Stars are balls of hot gas floating in space with their own solar system.

What the hell is there to consult?

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4384
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2009, 08:09:09 PM »
                                                                         בס"ד

I agree with the idea that Astrology as the secular world understands it is completely false and should be ignored. But the idea of Mazel and that we are born under stars which influence our potential makes sense to me. It is not good to consult Stars to know the future because only Hashem knows the future. But in order to know our own Middot, character traits, it may be beneficial to know what Mazel we were born with.

PS: Yes there is machlokes about this... But the story of Abraham saying that he had consulted the stars and he did not see any children in his future indicates that there has always been the concept of consulting the stars to see what mazel we have..


Isn't it what Rabbi Yehuda said? I remember Rabbi Yochanan said "אין מזל לישראל" (Bavli, Shabbat, קנו/א).
PS: Muman, bro, what you've explained is what you call secular astrology..

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Americans Invent their own religion
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2009, 08:29:04 PM »
This story saddens me because it will result in more people who think they are Jewish and yet they have nothing Jewish about them... Americans seem to think that they can 'pick-and-choose' from a menu of religious beliefs. By doing this they confuse themselves and they confuse others. Judaism has long taught that one cannot invent his/her own religion and must either adhere to the core principles {as enumerated in Rambams 13 principles} or else be considered heretics.

When man invents his own G-d and worships it, it is a form of Idol worship and according to Jewish belief it will be destroyed. Throughout history man has invented new G-ds to suit his ego and his desires, and once again Americans seem to not learn the lesson of history.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/pew-study-finds-americans-surprisingly-flexible-faith-religion/story?id=9306080

Quote
A new poll finds Americans are doing a tremendous amount of personalizing – picking and choosing from a diverse variety of religious traditions. According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, nearly six in ten Americans from all religions blend their faith with new age and Eastern beliefs like astrology, reincarnation, and the spiritual – not just physical – benefits of yoga.

PS: It is curious because Judaism has elements of Reincarnation, Spiritual enlightenment, and even Astrology... Why would Jews be lured away from their heritage?

I agree that this is a terrible problem for all Americans. :'(