Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Earth at the Center of the Universe
Muck DeFuslims:
So where did Nachmonides' knowledge come from ? I find it difficult to believe it could be derived by merely expanding Biblical text or reading between the lines. Nachmonides himself attributed the knowledge to his predecessors who passed it on to him. Surely there is nothing in Genesis which imparts such detailed information regarding the details and mechanics of creation to us.
Think about it, we have Nachmonides giving an account of creation which closely matches modern science's account regarding the Big Bang, only this was done centuries ago, at a time when every scientist and philosopher agreed the universe didn't have a beginning, that the universe wasn't finite, but eternal with no beginning or end.
Where did this amazing knowledge and insight come from ?
Mifletzet:
The debate is in Pesachim, not Yoma.
It has nothing to do with Geocentrism, as both the Greeks and Chazal were Geocentric.
It has to do with whether the galgalim (invisible heavenly-etheric spheres) move and the stars are stationary, transporting them around the Earth. Or it's the stars themselves that move around the Earth, and that it's the galgalim that are stationary.
By definition of Relativity, there can be no proof of the Earth going round the Sun, or vice versa ie both are equally scientifically acceptable ways of looking at the universe - not just mathematically, abstractly, philosphically or religiously - but in hard physics.
Otherwise Einstein's disciple Lincoln Barnett would never dare to say that "We cannot feel our motion through space - nor has any experiment actually proven that the Earth is in motion".
If you know of such an experiment, then you have disproved Relativity, and you get the Nobel Prize and $$$$!
Of course, then you have your work cut out explaining the zero-velocity result of the Michelson Morley experiment. If there's an ether, then why is the Earth stationary wrt it: obviously because the Earth really is at the center of the universe!
ie whether Relativity is right or wrong, the Geocentric paradigm cannot be disproved!
Nowhere in the Tenach is any diurnal or annual motion attributed to the Earth. All motion is attributed to the Sun and stars: Hashem means what He writes and writes what He means.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: Mifletzet on June 06, 2007, 05:13:06 PM ---The debate is in Pesachim, not Yoma.
It has nothing to do with Geocentrism, as both the Greeks and Chazal were Geocentric.
It has to do with whether the galgalim (invisible heavenly-etheric spheres) move and the stars are stationary, transporting them around the Earth. Or it's the stars themselves that move around the Earth, and that it's the galgalim that are stationary.
By definition of Relativity, there can be no proof of the Earth going round the Sun, or vice versa ie both are equally scientifically acceptable ways of looking at the universe - not just mathematically, abstractly, philosphically or religiously - but in hard physics.
Otherwise Einstein's disciple Lincoln Barnett would never dare to say that "We cannot feel our motion through space - nor has any experiment actually proven that the Earth is in motion".
If you know of such an experiment, then you have disproved Relativity, and you get the Nobel Prize and $$$$!
Of course, then you have your work cut out explaining the zero-velocity result of the Michelson Morley experiment. If there's an ether, then why is the Earth stationary wrt it: obviously because the Earth really is at the center of the universe!
ie whether Relativity is right or wrong, the Geocentric paradigm cannot be disproved!
Nowhere in the Tenach is any diurnal or annual motion attributed to the Earth. All motion is attributed to the Sun and stars: Hashem means what He writes and writes what He means.
--- End quote ---
Forget it. JDL4Ever cannot even answer my simple question about the tennis ball- Let alone disprove relativity. He either does not understand or refuses to accept the relativity at play between all objects that appear to be in motion. He still thinks you can go in a spaceship and find an "objective" spot. But ask him to prove to you that the spaceship is not also in motion and you'll be met with dead silence.
I do believe the debate is in Yuma it might be in both, I'll get you sources next week G-d willing. ;)
I don't beleive any sceintist would have the audacity to say that this can only work out one way mathematicallyas JDL4ever says. Any scientist who does say that is a liar.
Lubab:
Another problem JDL4ever has is a big misconception about Torah scholars. Torah is the blueprint with which G-d created the world. This means that if one is truly a great Torah scholar he will have insight into many many things before sceince discovers them. The Talmud and Zohar have been ahead of the curve when it comes to sceince. One my favorite instances of this is the role of CSF (cerebro-spinal fluid) in thought process and generally giving life to a human being. The Zohar has over 40 pagees explaining this. Sceintist now are only begninning to reaserch the possiblity for using this liquid to prolong life. They always just thought it was a brain-cushioner and nothing more. The Zohar written centuries ago knew in detail what the scientists still don't even know. There are many many other examples of this.
G-d is the creator of the universe-and who understand the world better than the Creator? His wisdom is in the Torah. The words of our Sages of Blessed memory are part of that Torah.
Lubab:
P.S. In Torah we don't beleive in cavemen. Adam was the first man and he also had the most understanding of G-d and the world. Moses was smarter than those leaders after him. The Rabbis closer to the giving of the Torah were smarter than the later ones etc. Throughout the generations in some ways we've gotten smarter. But in many ways we've gotten dumber too.
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