Israeli Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger: yet another Erev Zeirnik

[wonga66]

I once thought that Yona Metzger had some good points.

But now he has shown that like his predecessor Meir Lau, he is also more than willing to kiss Yishmaelite tochuss!



Here Metzger draws a direct moral equivalency between the torching of the Yusef mosque (which may yet turn out to be an act of Shabak provocateurship) to the torching of synagogues by the Nazis on Kristallnacht!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1134975.html

How different from 42 years ago, when another Israeli Chief Rabbi, Shlomo Goren ztz"l, came close to single-handedly blowing up the Mosque of Omar!

[Rubystars]

He is in favor of Chaim being allowed into Israel if I'm not mistaken.

[wonga66]

Here Israeli Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger doesn't shake the hands of  bereted PLO killers....he actually clasps their hands!!



Of course, Metzger would rather die than shake Rav Kahane's hand!

Metzger was a captain in the IDF tanks: shame they didn't kidnap him!

[wonga66]

The verminous Metzger now cowardly pleads with the Muslims not to riot on the Har Habayis, and disavows Jewish intention to rebuild the Temple http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3863118,00.html
stating that "it will come down from Heaven".

In fact there is an absolute, immediate Torah command to building the Mikdash with human hands, as R.Kahane taught! The only thing stopping us is the absence of a Red Heifer, of which one is reputably being raised in Israel right now!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The verminous Metzger now cowardly pleads with the Muslims not to riot on the Har Habayis, and disavows Jewish intention to rebuild the Temple http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3863118,00.html
stating that "it will come down from Heaven".

In fact there is an absolute, immediate Torah command to building the Mikdash with human hands, as R.Kahane taught! The only thing stopping us is the absence of a Red Heifer, of which one is reputably being raised in Israel right now!

Apparently R. Yona Metzger rejects an explicit passage in Talmud Yerushalmi which states that we (people) build it.  Rav A Y HaKohen Kook ZT"L - in a league a thousand times greater than R. Metzger as a chacham and a posek which I do not believe R. Metzger is even a qualified posek - said the exact opposite in a teshuva responding to someone who asked - will it come down from heaven, and if it will come down from heaven then are we forbidden to do anything to build it etc"   From what I remember he answered along the lines of, We cannot say it will come down from heaven as there is an explicit Talmud Yerushalmi which says otherwise, so we do not have to believe that it will come down from heaven and God forbid that we think we're forbidden to build...    Something along those lines.  Needless to say, he wipes the floor with R Metzger's false assertion.

[Rubystars]

I have to wonder if it's wise to talk about him in a bad way on the forum since he seems to be one of the few people in the Israeli establishment who was on Chaim's side. Everyone knew that he was not a Kahanist and not right wing. That's pretty much a given. However that doesn't mean we should speak badly about him when he was kind enough to look at Chaim's case objectively and without political bias.

[wonga66]

Can you specify in what way & when Metzger was kind to Chaim?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Can you specify in what way & when Metzger was kind to Chaim?

In Chaim's latest attempt to make aliyah, R. Metzger wrote a letter on Chaim's behalf to the ministry of interior recommending that they let him in.   They rejected it in the end, but that was a very significant thing.   Wonga, it is okay to criticize his position on an issue without flaming him or labelling him as a 'erev zeir' (still have yet to hear this term mentioned even a single time outside of you writing it in forums), satanist etc etc.  The namecalling is childish and petty.   You can't just make everyone you don't like into a cartoon.

[wonga66]

Did they specify exactly on what grounds Chaim was denied entry?

[Raulmarrio2000]

Remeber that it is a serious sin to speak bad of a Rav and even worse to wish evil on him (like the user who wished he had been kidnapped). If someone has some doubts or disgreement with a Rav, better keep silent.

[wonga66]

In your opinion is it a 'sin' to criticize Ravs Ovadiya Yosef, Eliezer Shach, Belzer Rebbe, Norman Lamm, Immanuel Jakobovits, Jonathan Sacks, Nafatali Elzas, Berel Wein, Nathan Cardozo, Cyril Harris, Noach Weinberg, Michael Melchior, Menachem Porush etc etc etc just because they are 'Ravs', remembering that they all publicly voted for, supported & vocalised the handing over parts of Eretz Yisrael to Yishmaelim, thus not only in violation of a severe Torah prohibition, but even worse, undermining the morale of the Am Yisrael & putting the whole yishuv in danger?

If Rav Kahane was alive in 1993, he would spoken as 'bad' about them as he spoke 'bad' about Rabin & Peres & Sharon & Aloni & Sarid!

In the Orthodox Israeli rabbinical world, Metzger is viewed as being very paltry indeed, especially in Torah knowledge. He slipped through to become Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi through political opportunism and 'mazal', rather than through merit.

Here Metzger hands together with his equally paltry Sefard counterpart an expensive gift in grovelling obeisance to the Pontiff of Rome!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I have to agree with Rubystars here; whatever the man's faults, he is standing up for justice for Chaim.

[muman613]

I find Wongas insistence on desecrating the Rabbinate completely sickening. It seems that a Rabbi means nothing to him. I doubt that Wonga has any Ahavat Yisroel and sees all jews who are not right wing as enemies {or erev rav as he likes to call them}. I do not share his outlook..

Much has been written about those who do not respect the Rabbi.

[Raulmarrio2000]

In your opinion is it a 'sin' to criticize Ravs Ovadiya Yosef, Eliezer Shach, Belzer Rebbe, Norman Lamm, Immanuel Jakobovits, Jonathan Sacks, Nafatali Elzas, Berel Wein, Nathan Cardozo, Cyril Harris, Noach Weinberg, Michael Melchior, Menachem Porush etc etc etc just because they are 'Ravs', remembering that they all publicly voted for, supported & vocalised the handing over parts of Eretz Yisrael to Yishmaelim, thus not only in violation of a severe Torah prohibition, but even worse, undermining the morale of the Am Yisrael & putting the whole yishuv in danger?

If Rav Kahane was alive in 1993, he would spoken as 'bad' about them as he spoke 'bad' about Rabin & Peres & Sharon & Aloni & Sarid!

In the Orthodox Israeli rabbinical world, Metzger is viewed as being very paltry indeed, especially in Torah knowledge. He slipped through to become Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi through political opportunism and 'mazal', rather than through merit.

Here Metzger hands together with his equally paltry Sefard counterpart an expensive gift in grovelling obeisance to the Pontiff of Rome!

I don't know all the Ravs you mention. If they engage in politics it's ok to respectfully disagree with them as politicians. They know the rules of democracy and can't expect not to be criticized just for being Ravs besides of politicians. But insulting them, or making an opinion about them when they are not running for an election is really a sin. I have heard about a Rav Eliezer Sachs who died in 2001 at 108, he was the leader of Degel Hatorah and another religious party, is he the same you spell as Shach?

[Lisa]

Wonga, Rabbi Metzger did try and intervene for Chaim.  So I don't think it's fair to call him names. 

I was with Chaim tonight, when Rubystars brought this thread to my attention during the conference call.  According to Chaim, Rabbi Metzger has also done some not so good things, which you obviously, you all know about.  So if you want to disagree with him, that's fine.  But just stick to the facts and stop with the name calling. 

[Raulmarrio2000]

This has nothing to do with the topic. But if any Jew here knows, I'd like to know how could the Orthodox Rabbinate of Israel get controll over religious issues in a secular and leftist society and at the same time their opinion is totally rejected when it comes to politics. With only 10% of Israelies being fully Orthodox Obesrvants, the Rabbinate can maintain only Orthodox marriage and Kosher supervision, but with about 50% of Israelies opposing to Disengagement, the Rabbinate had poskined it was forbidden to expell Jews and it was not heard.
So an Israeli politician is not allowed to have Reform or Conservative supervised food or marry a dubious convert (as any other citizen, however they can freely violate shabbat) but he can defy the Ravs in exercise of his post and expell Jews. How does Israeli system works?

[Rubystars]

Thanks for posting Lisa. My point was that even though we obviously disagree with him on some very serious issues, we should show him a basic level of respect not only for the fact that he is a Rabbi but for the fact that he did try to help Chaim because he saw the case objectively.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This has nothing to do with the topic. But if any Jew here knows, I'd like to know how could the Orthodox Rabbinate of Israel get controll over religious issues in a secular and leftist society and at the same time their opinion is totally rejected when it comes to politics. With only 10% of Israelies being fully Orthodox Obesrvants, the Rabbinate can maintain only Orthodox marriage and Kosher supervision, but with about 50% of Israelies opposing to Disengagement, the Rabbinate had poskined it was forbidden to expell Jews and it was not heard.
So an Israeli politician is not allowed to have Reform or Conservative supervised food or marry a dubious convert (as any other citizen, however they can freely violate shabbat) but he can defy the Ravs in exercise of his post and expell Jews. How does Israeli system works?

There was a "status quo" agreement (it was made the status quo then, and termed as such with the intention that it would remain the working arrangement) that assigned certain duties to the Orthodox rabbinate.  This included the institution of marriage, geruth, kosher supervision as you mentioned, etc.  I think these are the main things if not the gamut of them.  A few things here and there, which would be regulated in the domain of the rabbis.   This agreement was made for several reasons - all the obvious ones including political opportunism, quid pro quo etc anyone can figure out and quite rightly assume - but there is one additional inescapable aspect, and that is that zionists never had anything but disdain for "reform" so-called Judaism, and while the majority were not religious or not practicing Orthodox, the vast majority not only were traditional (otherwise they would have had no Jewish tradition and not identified with Zionism), and more relevant, they acknowledged the Orthodox rabbis as the vanguards of Judaism and the only authentic bearers of the Jewish religious tradition.  It is for this reason that they sought to involve the Orthodox rabbis in some facets of society and maintain some element of Jewish constitution to the state, even if ostensibly a democracy.   Because they wanted a Jewish, Democratic state.   Jewish/Democratic, whatever you want to call it.  They wanted their cake and to eat it too.

The crux of this issue is the question of Jewish vs. "Democratic" (in the modern western liberal democracy sense).   This inherent contradiction (a ticking timebomb of a contradiction) was built into the ethos of the zionist State of Israel by the founders - They wanted both.   They wanted a Jewish state AND a fully democratic state.   They did not realize, or did not care to acknowledge, etc, that one excludes the other.   Thus remains the choice for the Israeli people - Jewish state or western fully democratic state.  There is only room for one.    Rabbi Kahane pointed out this painful reality that the contradiction could not be avoided, especially in his times ( and moreso in our times) it can no longer be avoided or ignored, and it is the critical issue boiling beneath the surface of every major issue facing the State of Israel.    And the only choice we have is to choose the Jewish state.   If we want to survive, that is.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Thank you for the explanation. The curious thing of that system is that there are also Christian and Muslims courts. A Gentile of Jewish father or grandfather who made Alyah should live as a Noahide according to Hallacha, but there is no provision for Noahide marriages and no civil marriage either (so they must either marry abroad in a foreign civil registrar or live in concubinate), but if these Gentiles converted to Islam, for example, chalilah, they could marry in Israel. Just strange.

[wonga66]

The funadamental contradiction twixt Torah Judaism & modern egalitarian democracy (as opposed to classical democracy) causes a mental illness called "demophrenia" which afflicts the core of the Jewish State from top to bottom.

Professor Paul Eidelberg wrote a book on the subject which is required reading