Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Kabbalism
mord:
I think your right
jdl4ever:
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on April 29, 2007, 03:57:21 AM ---Do you believe Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai revealed Kabbalah at all? The heretical Revava moderator Elisha claims that Kabbalah is not part of The Oral Torah. He is a Rambamist and think The Rambam is the ultimate authority. He is like The Dardist Yemenites.
--- End quote ---
Again, it depends on what you mean by Kabalah. If you mean the Zohar, then no, R' Shimon Bar Yochai definitely did not author the Zohar. This is based on an old Sefer written by a Rabbi at the time the Zohar was written that basically said that they guy who wrote the Zohar lied about it being a manuscript from R' Shimon Bar Yochai to get money and he wrote it himself instead. Also researchers discovered the Aramaic writing of the Zohar was not authentic true Aramaic but was faked. If you mean by Kabalah secrets of the Torah, then of course the Tanaim of the Gemarah knew some secrets. THe Rambam writes about secrets of the Torah as well. Basically, don't say what I told you to your Rabbis since most don't know about this and they will get angry. The Zohar was very controversial for this reason (they guy lied about it being R' Bar Yochai's work) and here was a division in Judaism because of it (the Kabalists vs. the Rationalists). I am a rationalist. To this day, the Kabbalists claim that R' Shimon Bar Yochai wrote it and go out of their way to provide illogical explanations of how to counter how it was lost for 1000 years and all of the sudden claimed to be found by someone who wrote it down in fake Aramaic and whose wife and daughters claimed after he died that he made it up himself. Since I am a rationalist, I'm giving you my point of view. Probably a Kabalist will come on this forum one day and tell you that these Kabalistic Rabbis could tell the future and stuff and I'm crazy. Whatever. Let them think whatever they want to think. Until I see a Kabalistic Rabbi elevate a glass of water in the air then I won't believe they have "magical" powers.
According to "Sabra" on Yukutiel's forum, Sabra asked R' Kahane Zs'l about this very thing and the Rav said that he had doubts if R' Shimon Bar Yochai actually wrote the Zohar.
jdl4ever:
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on April 29, 2007, 03:39:48 PM ---Maybe Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai revealed it on Lag B'Omer after it was hidden among a few sages since Mount Sinai but was never written down until 1,000 years later.
--- End quote ---
Yaccov, this is what I dislike about Kabbalists, that they make crazy mystical claims that have no logical basis. They guy didn't claim that R' Shimon Bar Yochai appeared to him and told him the Zohar. He also did not claim that it was transmitted orally to him by sages. If you do research, you will find out that the guy who wrote the Zohar claimed that HE found a lost manuscript of the Zohar from R' Shimon Bar Yochai and copied it. When this was disputed by an investigating Rabbi at the same time of the Zohar, the Kabalists came up with crazy claims like he appeared to the guy and transmitted the Zohar or it was passed down to him orally or on paper by a few wise Sages. But these are false claims since the author stated that he found an ancient lost manuscript and did not claim that it was passed down to him in any way. Now does it make any sense that 1000 years later some Rabbi found a forgotten manuscript from R' Shimon Bar Yochai that was never talked about for 1000 years? Does it make sense why his wife and daughter told an investigating Rabbi who asked for the manuscript after their father died that there was no manuscript and he made it all up himself? Does it make sense why the manuscript was never actually seen by anyone other than the author?
Shlomo:
This is really a good debate.
jdl4ever:
There are only two Torahs, the Oral Torah and the Written Torah. The secret areas of the Torah are not a separate layer and were not transmitted separately. The Rambam never menchans 3 layers of the Torah and this concept is absolutely incorrect and invented by Kabbalists. It was never stated anywhere in the Talmud or the early commentaries. Secrets of the Torah are derivitives of the written and oral Torah found out through careful study and from flashes of lightning from G-d as the Rambam writes. There are always people who uncover some secrets of the Torah in every generation and transmittion of secret areas of the Torah is limited since you can only transmit it through hints and only to one person who is knowledgible privately. The Medrish is part of the Oral Torah since it is a commentary. The Talmud and Mishna are derivitives of the Oral Torah (the parts that are not argued on is literally the Oral Torah transmitted through Moses). Listen, look up any of the early commentaries or look up in the Talmud and they all say that there were only 2 torahs, the written Torah and the Oral Torah. This nonsense about there being a separate Kabalah Torah is made up by Kabalists and I personally think it borders on heresy since there is no source for this anywhere.
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