Kabbalism

[WestCoastJTF]

It seems to have died down a little, but there was a long period there where the Kabbalah was in the news every day with Britney Spears, Madonna, etc. saying they were devotees.

Of course, from what I've read they were preaching a Westernized non-religious Kabbalah that was only similar to the real thing in name.

But it made me curious.  I've read a little about the Kabbalah and I wonder if these are true statements:

• In Judaism, one is supposed to be a certain age (35?) to study it
• It is more popular among the Hasidim than other branches of Orthodox Judaism
• Most Jews, even most rabbis, do not study the Kabbalah
• It is not appropriate for gentiles to study the Kabbalah

Perhaps someone with more knowledge could fill us in on this mysterious book?

[Shlomo]

Kabbalah is part of Judaism. It is not a separate ideology. Only married Jewish men over the age of 40 who have studied the rest of The Written and Oral Torah can study it.

And it's unfortunate that disgusting people like Madonna pervert it and give it a bad name. And what is this crazy red string stuff?

[jdl4ever]

Kabbalism refers to either studying the secret areas of the Torah or following mystical customs (usually from Kabbalistic Rabbis) or the study of the Zohar which was a mystical book written about 500 years ago that most Jews incorrectly claim that it was originally from R' Shimon Bar Yochai.   It depends on who you talk to what they mean by Kabbalism.  Most people are lucky to discover a few secrets of the Torah in their lifetime.  The red thing string is supposed to ward off the evil eye according to Kabbalists.

Personally, I do not study the Zohar since I follow what the Rambam says about secrets of the Torah, that they can only be uncovered by yourself and can only be transmitted privately to one person at a time through hints only.  I have uncovered a few secrets already and I am happy about this.  I do not recommend that you study the Zohar unless you are an old leanred man and then you might understand 1% of what he is writing about.  But even then it might ruin you since you will only be looking to uncover what you think it says and that understanding may be wrong.  So you will be looking for what you think the Zohar says but it is most likely that what you think he says is not correct since secrets can't be transmitted by paper so you will waste your time looking for the wrong thing.  Better to not have any guide and try to uncover things yourself without being influenced by anyone and then you will find things. 

[mord]

Do you believe Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai revealed Kabbalah at all? The heretical Revava moderator Elisha claims that Kabbalah is not part of The Oral Torah. He is a Rambamist and think The Rambam is the ultimate authority. He is like The Dardist Yemenites.

The red string i got from kaver rachel i took alot of the string i took it from the cover

[Fruit of thy loins]

Only one tenth of all human beings die from natural causes.  Nine-tenths die as a result of the evil eyes of others. 

[mord]

I think your right

[jdl4ever]

Do you believe Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai revealed Kabbalah at all? The heretical Revava moderator Elisha claims that Kabbalah is not part of The Oral Torah. He is a Rambamist and think The Rambam is the ultimate authority. He is like The Dardist Yemenites.

Again, it depends on what you mean by Kabalah.  If you mean the Zohar, then no, R' Shimon Bar Yochai definitely did not author the Zohar.  This is based on an old Sefer written by a Rabbi at the time the Zohar was written that basically said that they guy who wrote the Zohar lied about it being a manuscript from R' Shimon Bar Yochai to get money and he wrote it himself instead.  Also researchers discovered the Aramaic writing of the Zohar was not authentic true Aramaic but was faked.  If you mean by Kabalah secrets of the Torah, then of course the Tanaim of the Gemarah knew some secrets.  THe Rambam writes about secrets of the Torah as well.  Basically, don't say what I told you to your Rabbis since most don't know about this and they will get angry.  The Zohar was very controversial for this reason (they guy lied about it being R' Bar Yochai's work) and here was a division in Judaism because of it (the Kabalists vs.  the Rationalists).  I am a rationalist.  To this day, the Kabbalists claim that R' Shimon Bar Yochai wrote it and go out of their way to provide illogical explanations of how to counter how it was lost for 1000 years and all of the sudden claimed to be found by someone who wrote it down in fake Aramaic and whose wife and daughters claimed after he died that he made it up himself.  Since I am a rationalist, I'm giving you my point of view.  Probably a Kabalist will come on this forum one day and tell you that these Kabalistic Rabbis could tell the future and stuff and I'm crazy.  Whatever.  Let them think whatever they want to think.  Until I see a Kabalistic Rabbi elevate a glass of water in the air then I won't believe they have "magical" powers. 

According to "Sabra" on Yukutiel's forum, Sabra asked R' Kahane Zs'l about this very thing and the Rav said that he had doubts if R' Shimon Bar Yochai actually wrote the Zohar. 

[jdl4ever]

Maybe Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai revealed it on Lag B'Omer after it was hidden among a few sages since Mount Sinai but was never written down until 1,000 years later.

Yaccov, this is what I dislike about Kabbalists, that they make crazy mystical claims that have no logical basis.  They guy didn't claim that R' Shimon Bar Yochai appeared to him and told him the Zohar.  He also did not claim that it was transmitted orally to him by sages.  If you do research, you will find out that the guy who wrote the Zohar claimed that HE found a lost manuscript of the Zohar from R' Shimon Bar Yochai and copied it.  When this was disputed by an investigating Rabbi at the same time of the Zohar, the Kabalists came up with crazy claims like he appeared to the guy and transmitted the Zohar or it was passed down to him orally or on paper by a few wise Sages.  But these are false claims since the author stated that he found an ancient lost manuscript and did not claim that it was passed down to him in any way.  Now does it make any sense that 1000 years later some Rabbi found a forgotten manuscript from R' Shimon Bar Yochai that was never talked about for 1000 years?  Does it make sense why his wife and daughter told an investigating Rabbi who asked for the manuscript after their father died that there was no manuscript and he made it all up himself?  Does it make sense why the manuscript was never actually seen by anyone other than the author? 

[Shlomo]

This is really a good debate.

[jdl4ever]

There are only two Torahs, the Oral Torah and the Written Torah.  The secret areas of the Torah are not a separate layer and were not transmitted separately.  The Rambam never menchans 3 layers of the Torah and this concept is absolutely incorrect and invented by Kabbalists.  It was never stated anywhere in the Talmud or the early commentaries.  Secrets of the Torah are derivitives of the written and oral Torah found out through careful study and from flashes of lightning from G-d as the Rambam writes.  There are always people who uncover some secrets of the Torah in every generation and transmittion of secret areas of the Torah is limited since you can only transmit it through hints and only to one person who is knowledgible privately.  The Medrish is part of the Oral Torah since it is a commentary.  The Talmud and Mishna are derivitives of the Oral Torah (the parts that are not argued on is literally the Oral Torah transmitted through Moses).  Listen, look up any of the early commentaries or look up in the Talmud and they all say that there were only 2 torahs, the written Torah and the  Oral Torah.  This nonsense about there being a separate Kabalah Torah is made up by Kabalists and I personally think it borders on heresy since there is no source for this anywhere. 

[Shlomo]

There are only two Torahs, the Oral Torah and the Written Torah.  The secret areas of the Torah are not a separate layer and were not transmitted separately.  They are derivitives of the written and oral Torah found out through study.  There are always people who uncover some secrets of the Torah in every generation and transmittion of secret areas of the Torah is limited since you can only transmit it through hints and only to one person who is knowledgible privately.  The Medrish is part of the Oral Torah since it is a commentary. 

To be honest with you, I never quite bought into that whole "you can only transmit secrets through hints privately" stuff. In fact, I've witnessed the opposite as well. Sometimes Hashem allowed other people on their own, through experiences or studying other giants in Torah.

I will agree that deep secrets of the Torah are not prevalent in today's modern society as we move further from the source, but there are a LOT of righteous and dedicated Jews in Israel that understood some incredibly deep, mind-blowing things from other means.

I would like to add to this post for those who might take it out of context... I DO NOT think people should just go off on their own and wind up making some new kind of religious beliefs or become fake rabbis. I think it is VERY important to study Talmud with a teacher and gain instruction and direction from wise individuals who have demonstrated their "credentials".

[jdl4ever]

I am just writing what the Rambam himself wrote in Guide To the Perplexed about secrets of the Torah.  I also believe that he is correct since I tried to transmit some stuff I found out (ignoring the Rambam's warning) and I was not able to do it since they guys I was trying to tell it to were not able to understand no matter how hard I tried.  So I think the Rambam was very wize and I won't try to do this again.  I learned my lesson.  Also it is not that difficult to find secrets.  Just study the Torah and after a while you'll figure stuff out and uncover new things.  It usually takes about a year of thinking about something on your free time.  Only deep secrets can't be transmitted (I'm no expert since I only found 1 or 2).  Things that were not discovered before that are not really secrets you probably can transmit. 

[Shlomo]

I think the area of concern for me with Kaballah or "secrets" is that some people want a magical shortcut. Madonna absolutely does not want G-d's real will done in her life... she's looking for a "secret" or some "magic" to fix everything. This is DESTRUCTIVE thinking and phony schools are popping up everywhere. People think they can cheat and still have the same rewards in life. These people don't even get the point.

[jdl4ever]

You are absolutely correct and that is what us Rationalists don't like about the Kabalah movement in that it assumes that every day people should study Kabalah and can somehow become experts on secrets of the Torah by using a shortcut.  In reality, it takes lots of work and time to uncover hidden things in the Torah and there is no guarantee on finding things.  I only think I found 2 deep secrets and it took me over a year of study (and thinking a lot) to find each them and I had a lot of luck from Hashem on my side as well.  There is no shortcuts to this and you must do it yourself. 

[mord]

I forgot the Rabbis name but in the time that Rome ruled Israel a guy snitched on another person to the Romans the Rabbi had to hide in a cave for some yrs when he came  out he stared at the snitch and rays came out of the Rabbis eyes that evaparated the snitch he had to go back in the cave for 7 yrs in order to learn to control these powers

[jdl4ever]

The 4 layers are called Remez. All the layers except other than The Chumash are Oral Torah.

I say this is bull.  There were only 2 Torahs:  The oral Torah and the Written Torah.  Everything else is included in these and can be derived from them.   

[jdl4ever]

Yes, I believe that all Kabalah comes from the Torah based on my experiences uncovering 2 hidden things from the Torah and Mishnah.  I speak from experience so I know that I am correct but the only way for you to know this is to wait until you find something.  Some supernatural help is also needed to uncover secrets of the Torah, so it helps if you discover the hidden method of Ruach Hakodesh (don't get so excited, you'll only reach a low level after a lot of practice but it will be enough) which I can teach you but this is a borderline secret so I won't write about it here.  All I can say is that after I studied stuff on my own from the Torah for a long time, I opened up the Rambam to the chapter where he talks about Ruach Hakodesh and to my surprise he said exactly what I discovered in his chapter.  Not only that but I understood more than what he wrote as well.  Well, I was shocked for a while.  From then on I was encouraged to continue with my studies.  But now I have no time unfortunitly. 

If you are really frustrated then do a big Mitzvah.  Hashem likes to grant temporary Ruach Hakodesh to those who pass big tests or who do a big Mitzvah and you may uncover something based on this experience.