Melamed backing down?

[wonga66]

This report from the Hesder Meeting doesn't sound too good:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135101

"All the heads of the Hesder yeshivot unambiguously negate all demonstrations in the IDF, out of a desire to maintain the cohesiveness and unity of the IDF".

That only one single US-immigrant Zahal soldier refused to participate in the Gaza Deportation is scandalous!


10 Avi Biebers could have changed history!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

" fanatics who worship crazy australian "

What does that part mean?

As for the rest, it could be that you're right.   He was in too much of a rush to judgement here.   It may be it turns out well, and perhaps Rabbi Melamed will not back down, nor will the "council" of hesder yeshivot.   However, you must acknowledge that the possibility remains that Rabbi Melamed and other hesder yeshiva rabbis may give in.  I have seen such behavior before, and I see in the words of Rabbi Druckman, that there are some who are ready to do so again, just like when their soldiers DID participate in the expulsions, which is a fact.   But maybe God has blessed them with greater wisdom this time around.   We shall see.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135101

"All the heads of the Hesder yeshivot unambiguously negate all demonstrations in the IDF, out of a desire to maintain the cohesiveness and unity of the IDF".

That only one single US-immigrant Zahal soldier refused to participate in the Gaza Deportation is scandalous!

He was not the only one.  Where do you get that from?   And no 10 would have done nothing.  There needed to be many more.   And next time around I hope there will be many more than 10.   If we are shooting for 10 objectors, we are finished.

[wonga66]

Shame to tell, but I am not aware of any other Zahal soldier who refused to obey a direct Deportation order and who was punished with jail as a result
http://atomsound.blogspot.com/2005/08/avi-bieber-vlog20.html



If Bieber's attitude had caught on, Zahal and the Erev Rav's control of it would have become permanently unzipped.

[Secularbeliever]

Only men who are hungry, lean, mean and desperate can really revolt ie be prepared to physically lay their lives on the line, as in every revolution.

Most people in the West will not revolt, because..... there is just too much food: they are too obese to riot, their bellies are swollen, and they have satiated bank accounts!

The Jew, including the Israeli Jew, is in an even worse state, because in addition to being satiated, after 2000 years of golus the Jew is in a state of moyrah, and terrified of being physically injured: "The second skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat).

But there may yet be hope in achduss as per this report
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135825.html

If the Erev Rav perceive they are losing control of Zahal, and their power is starting to become unzipped, including the media, taxation system, education system, judicial system etc, they are literally prepared to liquidate the State of Israel: "The State of Israel survives because of me; and if I want to, it will end because of me!" (Shimon Peres).http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135056

Actually revolutions are typically led and peopled by elites.  All of the 19 911 hijackers were from families of at least reasonable means.  The same for the Russian Revolution.  No poverty among the Lenins, Trotskys, etc.

You really should learn about the revolt against the british prior to the state of Israel being founded.... you know, the revolution that was done .... by our people.   Look at where those fighters came from and the means with which they resisted the world's biggest empire.

There are countless other examples, but I mention that one specifically because for a Jew to not be well-read on those events is tragic in my opinion.

That is quite presumptious of you to assume what I know or don't know about the Jewish underground of pre independence Israel.  When I was younger that was one of my favorite subjects to read about.  I read Menachem Begin's The Revolt.  I read The Deed by Gerald Frank.  I read Schmuel Katz's book on the Irgun (believe it was called "Days of Fire"  that was many years ago).  I was in JDL as a young person and one of the more intellectual less physical guys there.  As a freshman in college I wrote a research paper on the battle of Deir Yassein.

Let's see, was Menachem Begin poor or starving?  Was Stern?  I don't think so.  Eliyahu Hakim, one of the two assassins of Lord Moyne was from a wealthy family.  I could not give you an economic status of every member of the Irgun or Lechi but I don't think the fighters were largely down and outers.  True they had a disproportionate number of Sephardim in their ranks but Sephardim are not always poor, Hakim was from a family that lived in Egypt and quite wealthy.  Bet Tsouri, while not wealthy was certainly well educated.

Again revolutions are certainly not led by poor people.  I will let you in on another secret.  Repression does not usually lead to revolutions, in most cases it is rising expectations that cannot be fulfilled that lead to them.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                             בס"ד

Secularbeliever, let's sum it all up by one question, do you live in Israel?

[Spectator]

" fanatics who worship crazy australian "

What does that part mean?

First off, my full point was "crazy fanatics who worship crazy australian but speak lashon hara about great Torah sage Rabbi Melamed",
with the emphasis on the second part - absolute ban on speaking bad about rabbis, and believe me, Rabbi Melamed is the last rabbi to be suspected in falsehood and collaboration with the establishment. But yes, I think that australian was just crazy and we don't need such "help". What he tried to do will be done in proper time and circumstances by proper people. With "friends" like him we don't need enemies.  But again, that was not the point.

I live in Israel and I sometimes read Israeli press (which is leftist as you know). So they are in great effort to present the patriots of the Land of Israel as crazy fundamentalist ayatollahs (sometimes they directly call them so), "dark medieval obstinates", "Jewish nazis", etc.

But it is not so easy because the Jews for the most part don't buy this propaganda. Most Israelis think that the land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel, even though they don't speak that openly and give that question top priority. Therefore the establishment uses other methods to smear the Jews of Yesha in the eyes of the other Israelis.

For example, they may falsely claim that Israel spends huge sums to protect the settlers from arabs (but they are silent when Israel has to spend tenfold sums to handle the arab missiles and terrorism launched from the areas wherefrom the Jews were evicted). But they are also desperately seek cases when some resident of Yesha did or said something wrong or dubious, then they magnify the gravity of what was done tenfold, and imply that most settlers do so. This combined with the previous "arguments" may sound more persuasive.

And when they fail to find faults among Yesha Jews, they use their agents to incite some Jews (mostly young ones) to do that. I don't mean here the resistance to evictions or other acts of struggle for the Land, but banal criminal acts or, as wonga does, weird ideas that look like Torah-inspired but in reality are absolutely crazy and contradict Halacha. 

The latter is very dangerous becuase it gives some ground to the forementioned claims of the establishment about the craziness of the heroic Jews of Yesha. An absolute lie cannot last long but when it is mixed with some truth (even with a very little bit of it), it can endure longer and be more persuasive.

[Spectator]

As for the rest, it could be that you're right.   He was in too much of a rush to judgement here.   It may be it turns out well, and perhaps Rabbi Melamed will not back down, nor will the "council" of hesder yeshivot.   However, you must acknowledge that the possibility remains that Rabbi Melamed and other hesder yeshiva rabbis may give in.  I have seen such behavior before, and I see in the words of Rabbi Druckman, that there are some who are ready to do so again, just like when their soldiers DID participate in the expulsions, which is a fact.   But maybe G-d has blessed them with greater wisdom this time around.   We shall see.

Indeed, there are rabbis who are prone to give in to the authority but Rabbi Melamed is the last one to be suspected in that. There are hardly a rabbi in Israel who is more loyal to the G-d's truth and Land than him. He is the highest authority among those who inspire IDF soldiers not to evict Jews from their homes and resist such criminal orders. And even if it will look like he had to give in, we had better assume that he did so to prevent worse things.

Remember, even in Israel we are still living in galut and not everything that must be done, can be done.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                 בס"ד

We don't live in the Galut in Israel. The fact that we behave like it is doesn't mean anything, it's (most of us) our own choice, an irrational fear and will to be vassals of the Gentiles.

[Secularbeliever]

                                                                             בס"ד

Secularbeliever, let's sum it all up by one question, do you live in Israel?

No I don't but what does that have to do with the social and economic conditions that coincide with revolutions?

[Spectator]

                                                                 בס"ד

We don't live in the Galut in Israel. The fact that we behave like it is doesn't mean anything, it's (most of us) our own choice, an irrational fear and will to be vassals of the Gentiles.

Yes we do.

You are right that we should be not be willing to be vassals of the Gentiles, and you are right that many Jews indeed do so. Galut is not an excuse for cowardice.

But our Sages say that this galut will end only when the Messiah comes and the Third Temple is rebuilt. If you call night "day", it won't turn to day. We must not deny the hard reality.  Our goal is to admit it and do all we can to bring an end to it. Struggle for the Jewish sovereignity in Judea and Samaria is one of the means to end the galut.

[wonga66]

What would Rabbi Kahane say about the Hesder Rabbis statement?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1260930903102&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

What would he have advised them to say?

Would the Hesder Union rabbis, despite their right-wing ideology, their beards and their big "Kook"-style kippot, even have sat with Rav Kahane on the same table?!

What would R.Kahane himself have said as Rosh Yeshivah of the "Yeshivah of the Jewish Idea" if it was a member of the Hesder Union, and was receiving money from the government without which it could not be able to continue, and if he was not able to get money from abroad?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Only men who are hungry, lean, mean and desperate can really revolt ie be prepared to physically lay their lives on the line, as in every revolution.

Most people in the West will not revolt, because..... there is just too much food: they are too obese to riot, their bellies are swollen, and they have satiated bank accounts!

The Jew, including the Israeli Jew, is in an even worse state, because in addition to being satiated, after 2000 years of golus the Jew is in a state of moyrah, and terrified of being physically injured: "The second skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat).

But there may yet be hope in achduss as per this report
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135825.html

If the Erev Rav perceive they are losing control of Zahal, and their power is starting to become unzipped, including the media, taxation system, education system, judicial system etc, they are literally prepared to liquidate the State of Israel: "The State of Israel survives because of me; and if I want to, it will end because of me!" (Shimon Peres).http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135056

Actually revolutions are typically led and peopled by elites.  All of the 19 911 hijackers were from families of at least reasonable means.  The same for the Russian Revolution.  No poverty among the Lenins, Trotskys, etc.

You really should learn about the revolt against the british prior to the state of Israel being founded.... you know, the revolution that was done .... by our people.   Look at where those fighters came from and the means with which they resisted the world's biggest empire.

There are countless other examples, but I mention that one specifically because for a Jew to not be well-read on those events is tragic in my opinion.

That is quite presumptious of you to assume what I know or don't know about the Jewish underground of pre independence Israel. 

Well, if so, you would know that revolution doesn't only come from super wealthy elites.   And that was certainly not the case there.   So the question is why did you try to claim that?   Otherwise I never would have presumed anything...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Let's see, was Menachem Begin poor or starving?  Was Stern?  I don't think so.  Eliyahu Hakim, one of the two assassins of Lord Moyne was from a wealthy family.  I could not give you an economic status of every member of the Irgun or Lechi but I don't think the fighters were largely down and outers.  True they had a disproportionate number of Sephardim in their ranks but Sephardim are not always poor, Hakim was from a family that lived in Egypt and quite wealthy.  Bet Tsouri, while not wealthy was certainly well educated.

This misses the point.   Begin was in a Soviet concentration/prison camp (poor conditions obviously - not starvation but "near-starvation"... they weren't fattening him up) for years before he came to Eretz Yisrael.   You think he had an american express on him when he got there?   So too with many who immigrated to the Yishuv and settled there.  They were coming on long and trying journeys from foreign countries with little in the way of possessions.   Even if they came with relative wealth, were there burgeoning business ventures and a vibrant economy to increase and maintain wealth?   And from what I've read about Begin, he and the other cabinet members did not live like kings in fact they lived very modestly because they gave every dime they could give to the revolt purposes.  Yes one had to be educated to know about zionist principles, to adopt the spirit of jabotinsky or the labor/socialist strain.   But how can this scenario be considered that the wealthiest people did the revolt?   The wealthiest Jews (The Jewish Agency) largely stationed in the diaspora, along with their cohorts who followed their demands in Eretz Yisrael (Haganah), were the ones who stifled the resistance and fought with every last breath to prevent a revolt.   If the underground had the kind of wealth and resources that the Haganah/Jewish agency had, things would have happened much more quickly and who knows how many Jews could have been saved...   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

" fanatics who worship crazy australian "

What does that part mean?

First off, my full point was "crazy fanatics who worship crazy australian but speak lashon hara about great Torah sage Rabbi Melamed",
with the emphasis on the second part - absolute ban on speaking bad about rabbis, and believe me, Rabbi Melamed is the last rabbi to be suspected in falsehood and collaboration with the establishment. But yes, I think that australian was just crazy and we don't need such "help". What he tried to do will be done in proper time and circumstances by proper people. With "friends" like him we don't need enemies.  But again, that was not the point.

I have no idea what you're talking about.   "that australian?"  What Australian?  And what did he try to do?

I live in Israel and I sometimes read Israeli press (which is leftist as you know). So they are in great effort to present the patriots of the Land of Israel as crazy fundamentalist ayatollahs (sometimes they directly call them so), "dark medieval obstinates", "Jewish nazis", etc.

But it is not so easy because the Jews for the most part don't buy this propaganda. Most Israelis think that the land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel, even though they don't speak that openly and give that question top priority. Therefore the establishment uses other methods to smear the Jews of Yesha in the eyes of the other Israelis.

For example, they may falsely claim that Israel spends huge sums to protect the settlers from arabs (but they are silent when Israel has to spend tenfold sums to handle the arab missiles and terrorism launched from the areas wherefrom the Jews were evicted). But they are also desperately seek cases when some resident of Yesha did or said something wrong or dubious, then they magnify the gravity of what was done tenfold, and imply that most settlers do so. This combined with the previous "arguments" may sound more persuasive.

And when they fail to find faults among Yesha Jews, they use their agents to incite some Jews (mostly young ones) to do that. I don't mean here the resistance to evictions or other acts of struggle for the Land, but banal criminal acts or, as wonga does, weird ideas that look like Torah-inspired but in reality are absolutely crazy and contradict Halacha. 

The latter is very dangerous becuase it gives some ground to the forementioned claims of the establishment about the craziness of the heroic Jews of Yesha. An absolute lie cannot last long but when it is mixed with some truth (even with a very little bit of it), it can endure longer and be more persuasive.

I hear what you're saying here.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

But our Sages say that this galut will end only when the Messiah comes and the Third Temple is rebuilt. If you call night "day", it won't turn to day. We must not deny the hard reality.  Our goal is to admit it and do all we can to bring an end to it. Struggle for the Jewish sovereignity in Judea and Samaria is one of the means to end the galut.

What you've just described is not necessarily when "galut ends" but when full redemption is upon us.  Just because we are not in a full redemption does not mean that galut is in Israel.   Israel by definition is NOT galut.   One part of redemption is bringing in the exiles to our homeland, physically.   That has certainly happened, and there is almost a majority of world Jewry there.   There is certainly more Torah in Israel than anywhere else, and there are more Jews there than ever before in history.   To say this is the same thing as the situation 70 years ago and 200-1000 years ago is simply not accurate.   

We have obligations as a people and as individuals.  We cannot make an excuse and say, well we don't have a right to try, or we are exempt from trying regarding x, y, z, because the way I judge things, it's not a full redemption yet.  But if you agree that struggling for Jewish sovereignty in Judea and Samaria will bring about further geulah, then there is no sense in saying that we have to limit ourselves in doing so because of the fact that we are not yet in full geulah.  That is self-defeating and those premises don't fit together logically.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What would Rabbi Kahane say about the Hesder Rabbis statement?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1260930903102&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

What would he have advised them to say?

Would the Hesder Union rabbis, despite their right-wing ideology, their beards and their big "Kook"-style kippot, even have sat with Rav Kahane on the same table?!

What would R.Kahane himself have said as Rosh Yeshivah of the "Yeshivah of the Jewish Idea" if it was a member of the Hesder Union, and was receiving money from the government without which it could not be able to continue, and if he was not able to get money from abroad?

Wonga:  I can see that the statement issued, which you quoted earlier from the INN piece, was one of a compromise that somehow fit together the point of view of various voices within the Hesder union.   The fact is that not all of them are saying the same thing, and they don't all view the issue the same way.   That they were able to issue a united statement in spite of that and present a united front of the Torah which will not bow down to the demands of a tyrant, is a big kiddush Hashem.   Now the ball is in barak's court.  Depending on what he does next, then we will see what the hesder union is really prepared to do.  And I guarantee you that some rabbis are more willing than others to do certain things.    Here is proof from the article you cited:

"One option under consideration is for either the union or Har Bracha to petition the High Court of Justice against Barak's decision. Some of the more radical rabbis are pushing the Union of Hesder Yeshivot to issue an ultimatum to Barak that they will indefinitely postpone the enlistment of their students into the military unless he reverses his decision regarding Har Bracha. "

What I highlighted in bold is what I think Rabbi Kahane ZT"L would get behind although no one can say for sure since he is no longer with us.   It is what I personally think would be the more logical, pragmatic and politically beneficial approach to take at this time.   And by politically beneficial I mean to the religious zionist sector, if they are able to achieve a concession by the govt to take the army out of expulsion and other civilian activities in addition to just getting Har Bracha yeshiva reinstituted.   That in itself will teach the priceless lesson of self-respect and self-pride that so often unexpectedly and miraculously comes to those who do not comprehend their own strength, that we were able to put a demand on the table and got the govt to surrender to an ultimatum.  If it can work with regards to Har Bracha yeshiva, it can work with regards to other things as well.   Those who were sitting in fear with the conviction that we must do what the govt says and comply in all cases because of supposed powerlessness or religious duty (or galut mentality) will be taught a powerful lesson.


"The five rabbis who make up the Governing Council of the Union of Hesder Yeshivot belong to the more moderate camp in religious Zionism. Druckman, who heads the union, was one of the leading rabbis who openly and strongly opposed any forms of insubordination during the Gaza disengagement in 2005. "

It seems the 5 on the governing council may be more lefty, but there are many voices who came out vociferously in favor of Rabbi Melamed's position.

And here is one example from an INN article from today:

The head of the Hesder yeshiva in the Negev city of Arad, Rabbi Yinon Ilani, has already announced his position, however: “If the Hesder Union does not issue a strong, unambiguous statement to the effect that rabbis are not under the army’s thumb, our yeshiva will be forced to quit the Union, despite the heavy price we will have to pay.”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135093


This issue is not so clearcut.   You also have Rabbi Waldman who spoke out in favor of Rabbi Melamed, and you have other more hardline rabbis like Rabbi Dov Lior and Rabbi Ariel.... Is there any question what their views are?   The only question is if there are enough of like voices to drown out the lefty "moderates" who want to "Compromise" with the govt at any cost.

[Spectator]

Just because we are not in a full redemption does not mean that galut is in Israel.   Israel by definition is NOT galut.   One part of redemption is bringing in the exiles to our homeland, physically.   That has certainly happened, and there is almost a majority of world Jewry there.

We've just celebrated Hanukah. This holiday teaches us that a situation is possible when the Jewish people resides in Israel and still it is considered galut. galut Yavan = Greece exile. During the Greece exlie, Jews lived in Israel but were dominated by Greek political dictate and their pagan worldview. Present situation in Israel is very similar to those times.

There is certainly more Torah in Israel than anywhere else, and there are more Jews there than ever before in history.   To say this is the same thing as the situation 70 years ago and 200-1000 years ago is simply not accurate.   

This is certainly true and we must thank G-d for it. Still, it is not the end of the galut (see above).

We have obligations as a people and as individuals.  We cannot make an excuse and say, well we don't have a right to try, or we are exempt from trying regarding x, y, z, because the way I judge things, it's not a full redemption yet.  But if you agree that struggling for Jewish sovereignty in Judea and Samaria will bring about further geulah, then there is no sense in saying that we have to limit ourselves in doing so because of the fact that we are not yet in full geulah.  That is self-defeating and those premises don't fit together logically.

The only thing that limits us is Halacha. Specifically, we must follow the teachings of the rabbis of our generation (let alone speaking lashon hara about them, as wonga does). This is the only and ultimate limit, it is true for all times, both galut and geulah. All the other options are self-defeating.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                                  בס"ד

Just because we are not in a full redemption does not mean that galut is in Israel.   Israel by definition is NOT galut.   One part of redemption is bringing in the exiles to our homeland, physically.   That has certainly happened, and there is almost a majority of world Jewry there.

We've just celebrated Hanukah. This holiday teaches us that a situation is possible when the Jewish people resides in Israel and still it is considered galut. galut Yavan = Greece exile. During the Greece exlie, Jews lived in Israel but were dominated by Greek political dictate and their pagan worldview. Present situation in Israel is very similar to those times.

There is certainly more Torah in Israel than anywhere else, and there are more Jews there than ever before in history.   To say this is the same thing as the situation 70 years ago and 200-1000 years ago is simply not accurate.   

This is certainly true and we must thank G-d for it. Still, it is not the end of the galut (see above).

We have obligations as a people and as individuals.  We cannot make an excuse and say, well we don't have a right to try, or we are exempt from trying regarding x, y, z, because the way I judge things, it's not a full redemption yet.  But if you agree that struggling for Jewish sovereignty in Judea and Samaria will bring about further geulah, then there is no sense in saying that we have to limit ourselves in doing so because of the fact that we are not yet in full geulah.  That is self-defeating and those premises don't fit together logically.

The only thing that limits us is Halacha. Specifically, we must follow the teachings of the rabbis of our generation (let alone speaking lashon hara about them, as wonga does). This is the only and ultimate limit, it is true for all times, both galut and geulah. All the other options are self-defeating.

As I remember Galut Yavan was only spiritually (by choic of many Jews). Also, I understand you consider Galut Roma to be started in 66 לפני ספירתם השגויה?

[Spectator]

As I remember Galut Yavan was only spiritually (by choic of many Jews). Also, I understand you consider Galut Roma to be started in 66 לפני ספירתם השגויה?

Obviously, Galut Yavan was only spiritually because physically the Jews stayed in Israel. As for whether it was only by choice of many Jews, I am not sure. Certainly it happened because many Jews wanted to give up the word of G-d and replace it with foreign worldview and lifestyle, but the same you can say about the other exiles. I think we should take into account the fact that unlike the other opressors, the Greeks didn't have problem with the physical existence of the Jews. They fought the Jewish faith in one G-d, His absolute reign in the world and Divine origin of Torah and the commandments. Their ultimate goal was to destroy the Jewish soul, not the body. Therefore they didn't try to banish Jews from Israel. Nevertheless, their dictate and dominance was hard and cruel and I am not sure if the Jews were able to end it anytime. If only we had such righteous and determined leaders as Maccabees today..

Yes, I guess Rome exile started with the destruction of the Second Temple (or even before that). Obviously, when the Jews were banished from Israel later, the situation became much worse.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                            בס"ד

As I remember Galut Yavan was only spiritually (by choic of many Jews). Also, I understand you consider Galut Roma to be started in 66 לפני ספירתם השגויה?

Obviously, Galut Yavan was only spiritually because physically the Jews stayed in Israel. As for whether it was only by choice of many Jews, I am not sure. Certainly it happened because many Jews wanted to give up the word of G-d and replace it with foreign worldview and lifestyle, but the same you can say about the other exiles. I think we should take into account the fact that unlike the other opressors, the Greeks didn't have problem with the physical existence of the Jews. They fought the Jewish faith in one G-d, His absolute reign in the world and Divine origin of Torah and the commandments. Their ultimate goal was to destroy the Jewish soul, not the body. Therefore they didn't try to banish Jews from Israel. Nevertheless, their dictate and dominance was hard and cruel and I am not sure if the Jews were able to end it anytime. If only we had such righteous and determited leaders as Maccabees today..

Yes, I guess Rome exile started with the destruction of the Second Temple (or even before that). Obviously, when the Jews were banished from Israel later, the situation became much worse.

Ok, but this it still not a Galut. Actually, thinking about it, there's no foreign in Israel (or at least in the State of Israel) --- we give up on Torah and Eretz Israel by choice (or at least our leaders). Maybe the leadership is Galutic but still there's no Galut here. The fact that we act like it is doesn't make it so.

No, you didn't understand my question, do you believe that Galut Roma started when the Romans took over Israel?

[Spectator]

The leadership is the vassal of US, Europe, "international community", etc. True, the foreign rule is enforced by Jewish hands and in soft form, but it is still foreign rule. Sort of a mild form of judenrat.

Let's continue this discussion tomorrow. It's a bit late in Israel. We gotta wake up for Shacharit in the morning somehow

[Secularbeliever]

Let's see, was Menachem Begin poor or starving?  Was Stern?  I don't think so.  Eliyahu Hakim, one of the two assassins of Lord Moyne was from a wealthy family.  I could not give you an economic status of every member of the Irgun or Lechi but I don't think the fighters were largely down and outers.  True they had a disproportionate number of Sephardim in their ranks but Sephardim are not always poor, Hakim was from a family that lived in Egypt and quite wealthy.  Bet Tsouri, while not wealthy was certainly well educated.

This misses the point.   Begin was in a Soviet concentration/prison camp (poor conditions obviously - not starvation but "near-starvation"... they weren't fattening him up) for years before he came to Eretz Yisrael.   You think he had an american express on him when he got there?   So too with many who immigrated to the Yishuv and settled there.  They were coming on long and trying journeys from foreign countries with little in the way of possessions.   Even if they came with relative wealth, were there burgeoning business ventures and a vibrant economy to increase and maintain wealth?   And from what I've read about Begin, he and the other cabinet members did not live like kings in fact they lived very modestly because they gave every dime they could give to the revolt purposes.  Yes one had to be educated to know about zionist principles, to adopt the spirit of jabotinsky or the labor/socialist strain.   But how can this scenario be considered that the wealthiest people did the revolt?   The wealthiest Jews (The Jewish Agency) largely stationed in the diaspora, along with their cohorts who followed their demands in Eretz Yisrael (Haganah), were the ones who stifled the resistance and fought with every last breath to prevent a revolt.   If the underground had the kind of wealth and resources that the Haganah/Jewish agency had, things would have happened much more quickly and who knows how many Jews could have been saved...   

I think you are missing my point.  It was not Begin's time in the Soviet Labor camp that made him a Zionist or follower of Jabotinsky, he was already a leader of Betar in Poland before he was arrested.  His family was a very prominent family in Poland.  You are correct that he never chased wealth in Israel, even after his years as Prime Minister he lived very modestly.  But he did not get thrown in a Soviet prison for stealing bread to feed himself.  He was thrown in prison for being a Zionist and Jewish leader.  Look at the American Revolution.  Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and every signer of the Declaration of Independence were well to do.  Look at the hippies and counter culture left wingers of the 1960s.  I guarantee you there were no impoverished people among the SDS, Weathermen etc.  The Russian Revolution was led by people who were well off.  Same with the French Revolution.  Al Queada is led by Bin Laden who even in America would be considered quite wealthy and every one of the 19 911 hijackers were fairly well off. 
They are your classic revolutionaries, although very evil, who give up their lives in one sense or another to fight the government of their nations.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Let's see, was Menachem Begin poor or starving?  Was Stern?  I don't think so.  Eliyahu Hakim, one of the two assassins of Lord Moyne was from a wealthy family.  I could not give you an economic status of every member of the Irgun or Lechi but I don't think the fighters were largely down and outers.  True they had a disproportionate number of Sephardim in their ranks but Sephardim are not always poor, Hakim was from a family that lived in Egypt and quite wealthy.  Bet Tsouri, while not wealthy was certainly well educated.

This misses the point.   Begin was in a Soviet concentration/prison camp (poor conditions obviously - not starvation but "near-starvation"... they weren't fattening him up) for years before he came to Eretz Yisrael.   You think he had an american express on him when he got there?   So too with many who immigrated to the Yishuv and settled there.  They were coming on long and trying journeys from foreign countries with little in the way of possessions.   Even if they came with relative wealth, were there burgeoning business ventures and a vibrant economy to increase and maintain wealth?   And from what I've read about Begin, he and the other cabinet members did not live like kings in fact they lived very modestly because they gave every dime they could give to the revolt purposes.  Yes one had to be educated to know about zionist principles, to adopt the spirit of jabotinsky or the labor/socialist strain.   But how can this scenario be considered that the wealthiest people did the revolt?   The wealthiest Jews (The Jewish Agency) largely stationed in the diaspora, along with their cohorts who followed their demands in Eretz Yisrael (Haganah), were the ones who stifled the resistance and fought with every last breath to prevent a revolt.   If the underground had the kind of wealth and resources that the Haganah/Jewish agency had, things would have happened much more quickly and who knows how many Jews could have been saved...   

I think you are missing my point.  It was not Begin's time in the Soviet Labor camp that made him a Zionist or follower of Jabotinsky, he was already a leader of Betar in Poland before he was arrested.  His family was a very prominent family in Poland.  You are correct that he never chased wealth in Israel, even after his years as Prime Minister he lived very modestly.  But he did not get thrown in a Soviet prison for stealing bread to feed himself.  He was thrown in prison for being a Zionist and Jewish leader.  Look at the American Revolution.  Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and every signer of the Declaration of Independence were well to do.  Look at the hippies and counter culture left wingers of the 1960s.  I guarantee you there were no impoverished people among the SDS, Weathermen etc.  The Russian Revolution was led by people who were well off.  Same with the French Revolution.  Al Queada is led by Bin Laden who even in America would be considered quite wealthy and every one of the 19 911 hijackers were fairly well off. 
They are your classic revolutionaries, although very evil, who give up their lives in one sense or another to fight the government of their nations.

Zionist youth movements were popping up all over Europe.  There was certainly a need to become educated in zionist literature.  I'm not sure I see the need of being wealthy.   Why do you consider that was a prerequisite for anyone involved or involved to any high capacity?

And I still don't see how 9/11 was a revolution or could be considered that.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Spectator can I ask what "Australian" you are talking about and what did he try to do?