can someone please help me explain to the Christians I'm trying to educate as to

[Zelhar]

DBF, can you please explain to me how the two commandments I mentioned (keeping the Sabbath, not making statues, masks, images) are valid to Christians ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there are certain Christian sects who observe some sort of Sabbath.

[~Hanna~]

FYI: anyone who murdur's Jew's in the name of Christianity, are NOT REAL CHRISTIANS in my book.

But they rejected the actual halacha of the "Tanach " saying that it's just metaphor and that so-and-so fulfilled all that for them already so they don't have to keep it.   The fact is they don't have a real law code.  That presents an opening for any odd action to be presented as fitting with their belief, even if some guy or some other Christian thinks it doesn't.    I didn't say they didn't have a "story," I said they didn't have a law code.  Big difference. 

The comparison with Islam is not necessary here.  In fact I'm not sure what you mean by that.   No one can claim that a Muslim who eats pork is doing so in the name of Islam.   No one can claim that a jihadist attack is NOT in the name of Islam.   The lawcode establishes the parameters and boundaries of the religion.   I think you failed to understand my comment.   I was not saying "Christians are bad and did bad things because they don't have a lawcode."  Not at all.  What I'm saying is that govt leaders and even priests had an opening to claim any actions (even antisemitic and Jew-hating) as "in the name of their Christian religion" because there was no real law code.

Even if a religion has a lawcode, people can still behave badly.  What I'm addressing is not, how can a person believe such-and-such but still do bad things, but more a question of, how can they claim that their bad behaviors fit with their religion.   That is what sets it apart as a question specifically to Christianity, whereas you don't really have that question with a religion with a lawcode.   Anyone can see whether it really fits or not if there is a lawcode (or at least have a  general idea if not an expert in it.

And if Christianity persecutes Jews, of course Muslims will love it, even if it is outside the parameters of what Islam allows in terms of religious belief.  Anything to itbach a yahoood is ok by them.   So Hitler's y''s "Christianity" is something Muslims love, just like they love anything about Hitler y''s since he was a murderer of Jews.    The person asking the question to hanna doesn't understand that just because someone ostensibly is "Christian" does not mean he won't exhibit behavior that a muslim barbarian will stand and cheer about.  Because a wide range of actions can be called "Christian" by various people.

I have a little bit of training in Christian theology, so let me try to handle this. If any of this appears offensive please don't take it as such, I am just trying to explain where "we" come from.

1: All orthodox (orthodox as in mainstream/theologically standard, not Orthodox the denomination) Christianity accepts that the written Law was/is all the word of G-d and literally true and binding at least for a period or epoch. Even though Christians do not practice most of it, all of us who are genuine about our faith at least respect its place and role in the Bible. In fact, Christians generally believe that prior to Jesus, the entire Torah was binding on all human beings for salvation (i.e. we don't have a concept of "righteous Gentiles" per se). Most Christians today would say that the "distinctive" laws of Torah (i.e. those that are considered to only apply to Jews) are not incumbent upon anybody for salvation. We do feel that all of the Noahide Laws, or what correspond to them (we don't call them that though) ARE binding upon all human beings, although we would consider living them out a sign of being "saved", not a means in and of themselves to go to heaven. A simplified form of the 7NLs is found in the New Testament verse, Acts 15:29. Some Christian groups, such as the Adventists and some of the Messianics, do attempt to practice varying degrees of halacha or even argue that they are necessary for salvation (I don't agree with these groups).

As far as I know there is no single Christian position on the Oral Torah or Mishnahs. There are many different opinions about them in our faith, but we have not formulated a  formal stance about it.

2: Overall you are correct that we don't have a "law code" (and I do believe that that comes directly from the N.T.), but it depends on what Christians you talk to. Catholicism does have a "law code" in that the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church is considered to be the binding and inerrant/infallible word of G-d and the pontiff is likewise incontrovertible, speaking directly from G-d. However, Catholic teaching and doctrine has changed somewhat over the centuries. Orthodox Christianity is similar to Catholicism but somewhat less formal--instead of placing ultimate reliance on patriarchal (their equivalent of the pope) or bishopric teaching, they place their highest value in liturgy (devotional literature and music) and decisions reached by popular consensus within the church. Protestants are a whole other ballgame--most of us (I am a Protestant by definition) do not put any absolute value in any institution other than the Bible ("sola scriptura"). You could say that we view the Bible and N.T. in particular as a "law code", I suppose, but we put emphasis on faith lived-out more than following rules per se, even the ones that are extremely obvious (i.e. no immorality, murder, stealing, etc.).

3: I agree naturally that Christianity in general needs to be made painfully aware of the millenia of horrific anti-Semitism that has taken place in the name of Jesus, but I think that it is absolutely possible to make a distinction between so-called "Christian anti-Semitism" and Islamic anti-Semitism. The difference is that the Christian holy Scripture (the N.T.) does not call on anybody to abuse or persecute Jews, whereas the Koran obviously does. Yes, I am aware that the N.T. says things that are very problematic to Jews (i.e. that they are wrong to reject Jesus), but that does not translate to going out and harming or murdering them, especially when the apostle Paul took severe pains to warn the Gentile Christians that they are adopted stepchildren compared to the real, original Chosen people (Romans 11). I think that the behavior alone of the medieval pogromists (i.e. murder, rape, pillaging) should be enough to demonstrate that for whatever reason, be it extreme ignorance/primitiveness or deliberate disobedience of it (probably both), they were not in any way living out the true values of the N.T. The same applies, of course, to the German Nazis.

Yes, I know full well that the above is of little consolation to the millions of Jews who have been martyred in the name of Christianity...

[~Hanna~]

PLEASE NOTE: I did not intend to start WWIII by starting this thread.

I wonder if I should start any more threads, ever again. 

[Zelhar]

PLEASE NOTE: I did not intend to start WWIII by starting this thread.

I wonder if I should start any more threads, ever again. 

Don't worry about it Hanna, when people are looking for a fight the excuse will ALWAYS pop up, it's a miracle really... NOT.
But correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think this thread has reached war levels. It's a heated discussion at the most.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

DBF, can you please explain to me how the two commandments I mentioned (keeping the Sabbath, not making statues, masks, images) are valid to Christians ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there are certain Christian sects who observe some sort of Sabbath.

That depends on the Christian you talk to. By and large Christians think of the Sabbath as an ideal, but not an absolute commandment (since Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around). There are some that teach that you absolutely must not work on Sundays (a pretty small minority), and still a few others that try to observe the Jewish Shabbat, such as Adventists (who I think are rather cultlike).

As for why Christians generally think that it is okay to make depictions of G-d, I believe that the answer is that we have always interpreted "thou shalt not make graven images" as referring to idols or pagan deities, not the true G-d.

[Zelhar]

DBF, can you please explain to me how the two commandments I mentioned (keeping the Sabbath, not making statues, masks, images) are valid to Christians ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there are certain Christian sects who observe some sort of Sabbath.

That depends on the Christian you talk to. By and large Christians think of the Sabbath as an ideal, but not an absolute commandment (since Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around). There are some that teach that you absolutely must not work on Sundays (a pretty small minority), and still a few others that try to observe the Jewish Shabbat, such as Adventists (who I think are rather cultlike).

As for why Christians generally think that it is okay to make depictions of G-d, I believe that the answer is that we have always interpreted "thou shalt not make graven images" as referring to idols or pagan deities, not the true G-d.

‎Thanks for clearing that out DBF.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

No prob.

[Ulli]

I really didn't know Christians are supposed to obey the 10 commandments. There are at least two commandments Christians don't seem to observe: The Sabbath, and the prohibition of making statues and images.

I think the ten commandments are given to the Jews at Mount Sinai. They are not given to the gentiles. Althrough we can see the will of god through the ten commandments because it is the same god for Christians and Jews.

But I think we have to differ between those commandments who apply only to the Jews and those who apply to all.

There is nothing wrong with having one day to rest for Christians. But the Jewish Sabbat is more than simply resting. Of cause the special Jewish rules of Sabbat doesn't apply to the Christians. On the other hand the Christian Sunday is more a day of assembly and worship than resting.

In the case of statues and images it applies to all. So imo it is not suitable to have statues and crosses in places of Christian worship.

Some Christians say, that they are only symbols, but this is imo a bad excuse. Reformed Christian churches have no cross or no images and statues. In fact they are unneccessary, because there is no text in the NT that advocates it.

[Zelhar]

Interesting. This is the first time I hear there exists a church without crosses and images.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I really didn't know Christians are supposed to obey the 10 commandments. There are at least two commandments Christians don't seem to observe: The Sabbath, and the prohibition of making statues and images.

I think the ten commandments are given to the Jews at Mount Sinai. They are not given to the gentiles. Althrough we can see the will of G-d through the ten commandments because it is the same G-d for Christians and Jews.

But I think we have to differ between those commandments who apply only to the Jews and those who apply to all.

There is nothing wrong with having one day to rest for Christians. But the Jewish Sabbat is more than simply resting. Of cause the special Jewish rules of Sabbat doesn't apply to the Christians. On the other hand the Christian Sunday is more a day of assembly and worship than resting.

In the case of statues and images it applies to all. So imo it is not suitable to have statues and crosses in places of Christian worship.

Some Christians say, that they are only symbols, but this is imo a bad excuse. Reformed Christian churches have no cross or no images and statues. In fact they are unneccessary, because there is no text in the NT that advocates it.

Ulli I always appreciate your enlightening comments.  I happen to agree very much with what you wrote in regards to the non-Jewish relation to the 10 commandments.

[futuramark]

what about jewish symbols like the menorah. i think every religion has its symbols.  and Magein David?

[Zelhar]

what about jewish symbols like the menorah. i think every religion has its symbols.  and Magein David?

These are not depiction of G-d, they are just abstract symbols. In a Jewish synagogue you want find images of people, animals, angels or things like this so there won't be even the appearance that we pray to such images.

[arksis]

what about jewish symbols like the menorah. i think every religion has its symbols.  and Magein David?

These are not depiction of G-d, they are just abstract symbols. In a Jewish synagogue you want find images of people, animals, angels or things like this so there won't be even the appearance that we pray to such images.

A cross is not an "image" to Christians. If you see someone wearing a cross, it's not different from seeing someone wear the Star of David, don't you think? If Jesus or God is on the cross, it's called a Crucifix and those should NOT be worn. The only place they should be, is on a rosary or in a church. The reason for this, is to remind Christians the He died for OUR sins. I hope this helps a bit!

BTW I see no one getting offended or angry here, discussions are GOOD to help others know the TRUTH. But as far as I'm concerned, religions are VERY confusing! I believe in and live by the 7 Laws of Noah AND the 10 Commandments. If only everyone did!

[~Hanna~]

yes....

what about jewish symbols like the menorah. i think every religion has its symbols.  and Magein David?

These are not depiction of G-d, they are just abstract symbols. In a Jewish synagogue you want find images of people, animals, angels or things like this so there won't be even the appearance that we pray to such images.

A cross is not an "image" to Christians. If you see someone wearing a cross, it's not different from seeing someone wear the Star of David, don't you think? If Jesus or G-d is on the cross, it's called a Crucifix and those should NOT be worn. The only place they should be, is on a rosary or in a church. The reason for this, is to remind Christians the He died for OUR sins. I hope this helps a bit!

BTW I see no one getting offended or angry here, discussions are GOOD to help others know the TRUTH. But as far as I'm concerned, religions are VERY confusing! I believe in and live by the 7 Laws of Noah AND the 10 Commandments. If only everyone did!

[~Hanna~]

we are not supposed to follow the ten commandements?  why not?

I thought we were.....why do we study the tenach about Moses then?

I really didn't know Christians are supposed to obey the 10 commandments. There are at least two commandments Christians don't seem to observe: The Sabbath, and the prohibition of making statues and images.

I think the ten commandments are given to the Jews at Mount Sinai. They are not given to the gentiles. Althrough we can see the will of G-d through the ten commandments because it is the same G-d for Christians and Jews.

But I think we have to differ between those commandments who apply only to the Jews and those who apply to all.

There is nothing wrong with having one day to rest for Christians. But the Jewish Sabbat is more than simply resting. Of cause the special Jewish rules of Sabbat doesn't apply to the Christians. On the other hand the Christian Sunday is more a day of assembly and worship than resting.

In the case of statues and images it applies to all. So imo it is not suitable to have statues and crosses in places of Christian worship.

Some Christians say, that they are only symbols, but this is imo a bad excuse. Reformed Christian churches have no cross or no images and statues. In fact they are unneccessary, because there is no text in the NT that advocates it.

[~Hanna~]

Wow, the post I posted, ended up turing into a fight. Then someone else jumped in defending neither side and others jumped in and agreed, I jumped in and said "sorry you don't believe what God says about His people and their land" now I'm being ignored...

it makes me angry though.

[Zelhar]

Well Hanna, like I said before, I don't think this thread turned into a fight thread, but the discussion on the thread seems to have naturally exhausted itself 

[~Hanna~]

not here, the thread where I was posting the information about the Muslims being Nazis, that is why I asked this question and started this thread.

THAT is where the other stuff is going on.

Well Hanna, like I said before, I don't think this thread turned into a fight thread, but the discussion on the thread seems to have naturally exhausted itself 

[pennyjangle]

I'm staying out of it, I'm not saying one word.........not one.

[futuramark]

i will not post my opinion on sensitive issues as it seems my opinion is not going down well so I will stick to issues regarding muslims only. whenever the issues are about jewish/christian confrontations or why people hate jews etc my opinion on the issues are not going down well and my account was being revised so I wont comment anymore on such hot issues.