Author Topic: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?  (Read 1174 times)

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Offline muman613

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WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« on: December 21, 2009, 04:27:47 PM »
Im sorry but I find this story very troubling. I found it on FOX news @ http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580807,00.html

Quote
A priest in Britain is under fire Monday for advising his congregation to shoplift in tough economic times, the Daily Mail reports.

Father Tim Jones, a 41-year-old clergyman at St. Lawrence Church in York, England, said that shoplifting — rather than prostitution or burglary — is sometimes the best option for poor people struggling to make ends meet, according to the Web site.

"My advice as a Christian priest is to shoplift," Jones reportedly told churchgoers during his Sunday sermon. "I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is neither."

"I would ask that they do not steal from small family businesses, but from large national businesses — knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices," he continued.

"I would ask them not to take any more than they need, for any longer than they need ... My advice does not contradict the Bible's eighth commandment because G-d's love for the poor and despised outweighs the property rights of the rich."

Jones' sermon, meanwhile, has been blasted by police, the British Retail Consortium and a local MP who all say that shoplifting is a crime regardless of circumstances.

There is no excuse for stealing for Xmas... The only time that Torah says it is ok to steal is to steal food only if you cannot obtain money through charity. There is no Bible mandated theft aside from this.. What is this priest smoking? Crack?

Jewish sages have taught that one cannot steal in order to fulfill a mitzvah, doing so voids any reward for the mitzvah. You cannot use a stolen menorah, or give stolen money for charity.... Theft {of items} is a BIG NO-NO in Torah...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline nessuno

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 05:13:32 PM »
Maybe it was a black church and he was talking about Kwanzaa.  There are only a few more shoplifting days until Kwanzaa.
:::D
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Offline Masha

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 05:20:33 PM »
The only time that Torah says it is ok to steal is to steal food only if you cannot obtain money through charity.

Where does the Torah say this?

Offline pennyjangle

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 05:20:48 PM »
Why don't they take care of their parishioners then they wouldn't have to steal. That priest should be demoted.
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Offline Rubystars

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 05:21:26 PM »
This is just sickness. Stealing is only ok for survival needs only, like if you are going to starve if you don't steal food. When you are able to pay it back, you're then required to pay the person back you stole from seven times over.

Besides, this guy isn't going to be there to help when they get into trouble for stealing and go to jail, or when stores have to raise prices or go out of business. This guy needs to shut his mouth and resign.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 06:20:23 PM »
lol

Offline muman613

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2009, 06:32:40 PM »
The only time that Torah says it is ok to steal is to steal food only if you cannot obtain money through charity.

Where does the Torah say this?

I have heard this said, and can find examples of this principle:

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/ch_stealsavelife.html



Stealing To Save Someone's Life
by Charles J. Harary, Esq.
Mr. Harary is associated with the law firm of Davis, Polk & Wardwell

To what extent can a person go to save a life? Can he steal? Can he destroy the property of another? If so, what is he liable for? Must he compensate the owner of the property? Consider the following famous scenarios:

1. "A" is stranded in a remote area by an unexpected blizzard. He breaks into an unoccupied cabin and waits for three days until the storm abates and he may safely leave. During that time, the backpacker consumes the food stocks in the cabin and breaks up his unknown benefactor's furniture, burning it in the fireplace to keep warm.1

2. "H," a diabetic, loses his insulin in an automobile accident. Before "H" lapses into a coma, he rushes to the house of "C," another diabetic. "C" is not at home, but somehow "H" manages to get into her house. After first assuring himself that he has left "C" enough insulin for her own daily dosage, "H" takes the insulin he needs to survive.2

I.THE APPROACH OF JEWISH LAW

A. Saving one’s own life

God, through the words of the Torah, places utmost importance on the value of life. In Vayikra, the verse states: "ushmartem et chukotay ve’et mishpatai asher ya’ase otam ha’adam, vechai bahem, ani hashem."3 You shall observe my decrees and my laws that each man shall carry out and by which he shall live, I am God. This verse teaches us that the commandments were not meant to take precedence over human life. If the observance or the performance of a Torah law would create a risk to a human life, then preservation of that life should take precedence over the observance of that Torah law.

The Gemara in Sanhedrin4 rules on the basis of this verse that if someone is offered the ultimatum to violate one of the prohibitions in the Torah or be killed, that person has the duty to violate that law and save his life. This rule applies to all the prohibitions in the Torah with three exceptions. The three exceptions are the prohibitions of idol worship, illicit sexual relations and murder. Although the Torah specifically says "vechai bahem," if a person would be given the ultimatum to violate one of these three transgressions or be killed, he must refuse to violate the prohibition and sacrifice his own life.

The same Gemara in Sanhedrin,5 describes a case where a person being pursued destroys the property of another in effort to save his own life. Rava rules that if the property belongs to the pursuer, then the pursued is exempt from compensating the damage. However, if the person being pursued destroys the property belonging to a third party, he is liable for the damage. We see from this Gemara that it is permissible to destroy another’s property to save your own life, provided that you compensate the owner of the property.

It seems from the pasuk "vechai bahem" and from the Gemara in Sanhedrin that only the three major transgressions take precedence over saving one’s life; all other laws may be violated for pikuach nefesh. Since stealing or destroying property is not one of the three exceptions to the rule of "vechai bahem," it would seem obvious that one should steal and destroy property rather than die. The Raavad in fact rules this way.6

Despite the seeming clarity, there are sources that indicate that one may not steal even if it is for pikuach nefesh. The Binyon Tzion, Rav Yaakov Ettlinger, brings two sources that show authorities of the opinion that it is forbidden for a person to steal even if his life depends on it.7

The first source is a Gemara in Bava Kamma8 that relates a story from Sefer Shmuel about King David.9 King David was fighting the Philistines when he became very thirsty. He said "if only someone could give me water to drink from the well of Bethlehem which is in the city of the gate." Upon hearing this, three of David’s men broke through the gate and retrieved water. Before drinking, David sent a question to the Sanhedrin, asking permission to drink the water, to which they responded in the negative. The Gemara understands the passage to be speaking of David’s wish for halachic guidance. The "mayim" being referred to was not physical water but the waters of torah. According to R’ Huna, the question David was asking was whether he was permitted to destroy the property of another for pikuach nefesh. David and his army were in the middle of a barley field where the Philistines were hiding. He wanted to torch the field so that the Philistines would retreat and thereby avoid an ambush on his army. The problem was that the barley field belonged to another Jew. David inquired if he could save himself and his army by sacrificing the property of another. The Gemara states that the Sanhedrin sent him back a ruling that it was forbidden to destroy the property of another to save his life, however since he is king, he has the power to do what he wants with the property of his people.10

From this Gemara a conflict arises between Rashi and Tosafos. Tosafos maintains that David was not asking the Sanhedrin if property destruction was permitted to save a life, because that was obviously permitted. David was aware of the rule that when there is a possible danger to life, one may transgress any sin in order to escape the danger, with the exceptions of idolatry, forbidden relations and murder.11 Thus, one is clearly allowed to destroy someone else’s property in order to remove a threat to life. David’s question was whether he was liable to compensate the owner if he burnt the field. The Sanhedrin responded that it was forbidden to burn the property without compensating the owner. Tosafos further explains that the reason this rule is stated in the gemara in terms of a prohibition (It is prohibited for a person to save himself…) is to imply a caveat where there is another way to save oneself that does not entail the destruction of another’s property, one is indeed prohibited from destroying that property.12

The Rosh13 agrees with Tosafos and states that the Gemara never contemplated whether it was forbidden to save the life of the Jewish army at the expense of someone else’s crops. Such a ruling was obvious since nothing stands in the way of pikuach nefesh except the three cardinal sins. David was inquiring about compensation to which the Sanhedrin responded was obligatory.

The Binyon Tzion states that Rashi disagrees with Tosafos’ understanding of the Gemara and maintains that the Gemara should be interpreted literally.14 King David asked whether he could burn the field to save his soldiers, which the Sanhedrin prohibited. According to Rashi, a person is not allowed to steal or damage another person’s property even under threat of death and even if one will repay the loss. Therefore it is Rashi’s opinion that one may not steal even if it is for pikuach nefesh.

The second source that the Binyon Tzion discusses is a Gemara in Kesubos,15 that describes a scenario where a witness is given the ultimate to sign a false note, which will award money to an undeserving party, or be killed. Rav Chisda says that Rav Meir rules that in such a case one should allow himself to be killed rather than sign the note since signing the false note would be stealing. Rava disagrees with the view of Rav Chisda and rules that the witness may sign the note since nothing stands in the way of mortal danger other than the three cardinal sins, which stealing is not a part of. The Rambam states that Rav Chisda’s interpretation of Rav Meir is correct, and brings a Braisa Kitzonis (excluded beraisa) to show that R’Meir adds theft to the list of the cardinal sins holding that stealing is a form of killing. Additionally, the Shitta Mekubetzes in Kesubos16 quotes from the Rambam that the question of whether or not stealing should be the fourth of the cardinal sins may be a matter of dispute among the Tanaim.

In addition, there are sources that seem to imply that stealing is forbidden even for pikuach nefesh. Meseches Yoma17 records a story where a Tanna stole a loaf of bread from a farmer in order to save his life, and was rebuked for doing so. In Bava Kamma18 there is a case where the Rabbis objected to a person keeping in his possession an animal that grazed other people’s property, thereby stealing from others even though the animal was needed to save the owner’s life. The Yershalmi in Avoda Zara19 implies that stealing is equal to the three cardinal sins of Judaism. Forcing someone to steal is like forcing him to kill. Since one cannot kill to save a life, one cannot steal either. The Beraisa in Meseches Semachos20 compares one who steals to one who murders and worships idols; the Vilna Goan21 compares a thief to an adulterer and a violator of Shabbos. From these sources, we can see that although theft is not formally on the list of cardinal sins, there are authorities that believe that theft is similar enough to murder, adultery and idolatry that it is forbidden to transgress even at the expense for the sake of pikuach nefesh.

Despite these sources, the halacha follows the views that one can steal for pikuach nefesh, but only on the condition that the property be returned or the owner compensated for the property’s value.22 The Shulchan Aruch23 states that, except for idolatry, illicit relations and murder, a person is permitted to transgress all the sins in the Torah rather than be killed. Therefore, if a person’s life is in danger and he must steal to save himself, he can do so. However, he must have the specific intention to pay back the owner. The Rambam24 rules that if a person commands a Jew to transgress one of the commandments or be killed, he should transgress rather than be killed. He learns this rule from the pasuk "vechai bahem." Moreover, if a person is in this situation and chooses to die, he is guilty on his life.25 The Rambam applies the law to all commandments except idolatry, illicit relations and murder.26

...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline cjd

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2009, 06:37:28 PM »
Quote
"I would ask them not to take any more than they need, for any longer than they need ... My advice does not contradict the Bible's eighth commandment because God's love for the poor and despised outweighs the property rights of the rich."

This priest has to be joking... Stealing is stealing if its for gain or survival it really doesn't change that fact. The priest should come to America and run for president. It's policy like this that put the shvartza President in office.  >:(
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Offline muman613

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2009, 06:44:21 PM »
Of course I do not intend to say that Torah allows theft, because Theft is one of the main reasons the world was destroyed in the Mabel of Noach.

There is important to reiterate that one cannot perform a transgression while trying to do a mitzvah... But in cases where ones life is in danger I have heard that the halacha is that the judgement is less if the person regrets the theft, would die without it, and intends on paying for it...

Quote
http://www.shemayisrael.com/rabbiforsythe/torah.htm
Further, Rav Shimon Schwab said that a thing can be technically permissible when viewed alone, but can be, in the final analysis, a Torah prohibition because of the mitzva of kedoshim tihiyu [the commandment to be holy]. Even where a technical loophole might permit something otherwise, its failure to accord with holiness will make it no option for the Torah Jew. This is another concern with secular studies of the mind, human nature and the personality, and with choosing a counselor. There must be holiness in what Jews do, think and feel and how they impact others.

A Jew must always be a holaich [one who is spiritually progressing] and not an omaid [one who is spiritually stagnant]. All the moreso, one must not spiritually backslide. Will your counselor bring you to spiritual progress, stagnation or decline? As Rav Moshe said, it is imperative to seek a counselor who is a trustworthy Jew or, at the very least, promises to respect and safeguard your spirituality. Even if you seriously need help, and it is a mitzva to get the help you need, there is no mitzva ever that comes through an avaira [sin]. If one commits a sin, one is just a sinner. One cannot steal a lulav to shake with an esrog nor steal money to give to charity. There is no exemption to commit wrong even for a noble purpose. To us, a Robin Hood, who steals from the rich to give to the poor, is just a Hood...lum! It is forbidden to do a mitzva through a sin [Suka 30a].
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 08:13:24 AM »

He's a priest? What he did is worthy of him being hung and shot by British authorities.

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Offline Ulli

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2009, 08:39:28 AM »

He's a priest? What he did is worthy of him being hung and shot by British authorities.



 :::D

What for a kind of "priest" is this? Stealing is absolutly forbidden in the NT. I have found at least 6 texts who refer explicitely to it. He endangers the salvation of people he is responsible for. Pfui!
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Offline mord

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2009, 08:41:41 AM »

He's a priest? What he did is worthy of him being hung and shot by British authorities.



 :::D

What for a kind of "priest" is this? Stealing is absolutly forbidden in the NT. I have found at least 6 texts who refer explicitely to it. He endangers the salvation of people he is responsible for. Pfui!

i saw him on t.v. he looks weird
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: WTF? Priest OK Shoplifting for Xmas?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2009, 09:00:11 AM »
because G-d's love for the poor and despised outweighs the property rights of the rich."
this is one reason why Christianity is not meant for India. There are many poor people in India, and if they start accepting these ideas, it is going to be chaos.

according to me God loves everyone equally, any one who is righteous.