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Offline muman613

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Re: Cursing another Jew is forbidden
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2010, 08:10:05 PM »
http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/shoah/11a-shoah.htm

B. Apostasy and the Hiding of God's Face


As we saw in the previous lecture, the Rabbi of Sanz-Klausenburg perceives the significance of the era as a reflection of the prototype set forth in Megillat Esther. The issue of the proper attitude towards those who stray from Torah is likewise treated in his Purim sermons. We shall examine one of them (Shefa Chayim, Purim, pp. 113-116).

The sermon begins with a discussion of the formulations of the "cursed" and the "blessed" that are recited after the reading of the Megilla. In the Tur and in the Shulchan Arukh (590:16), the formula is "Cursed be all the idolaters; blessed be all of Israel," while in the printed version of the poem "Shoshanat Yaakov," we find "Cursed be all the wicked, and blessed be all the righteous." Our text of the Talmud Yerushalmi offers the same version as the Shulchan Arukh, but the Tosafot and the Rosh (Megilla 7b) quote the Yerushalmi as following the printed version of "Shoshanat Yaakov."

The Rebbe notes at the outset that it must be assumed that the original formula referred to "idolaters," and that the change to "wicked" was introduced out of fear of the censors. This historical explanation, while satisfactory on the traditional level – after all, this is the formula of the prayer with which we are familiar – certainly in no way nullifies the deeper significance of the differences. According to the version in the siddur, our intention is to curse the wicked among Israel along with the wicked of the other nations! The Rebbe also points out that cursing the wicked, according to strict halakhic standards ("One who violates a rabbinical enactment can be called a transgressor" – Shabbat 40a), would mean that almost every Jew would be cursed. And if the formula "cursed be the wicked" was an "evil custom," God would certainly have brought about a way to nullify it so that it would not be uttered as part of the prayer.

The Rebbe explains (ibid., p. 114) that the rigid definition of "wicked" applies only in an era where God's presence in history is unequivocal and irrefutable. Whether such a situation is a theoretical fiction or whether the Rebbe indeed believed that during the era of prophecy, for example, the manifestation of God's presence in the world was unequivocal, his teaching implies that in a generation of "hester panim" (the "hiding of God's face"), and in the absence of prophecy and of God's word, even if we claim that day is night (i.e., we are unable to distinguish between a transgression and the fulfillment of a commandment) – it is not our fault. There is no one in our generation who can properly be called wicked or a transgressor:

This is what our Sages taught concerning the verse, "And He called the name of the place Masa u-Meriva, because of the strife of Bnei Yisrael and because they tested God, saying: 'Is God in our midst or not?' And Amalek came and waged war against Israel in Refidim" (Shemot 17:7-8). Rashi explains: "The latter episode [concerning Amalek] is juxtaposed with the former [Masa u-Meriva], so as to say: I am always in your midst, ready to provide for all your needs, yet you say, 'Is God in our midst?'! By your lives, this dog will come and bite you, and you will cry out to Me and you will know where I am. This may be compared to a man who puts his son onto his shoulder and then sets off on the way. The son sees some object and says: Father – lift up that object and give it to me – and he gives it to him, and thus a second time and a third time. They then meet another person, and the son says to that man: 'Have you seen my father?' His father says to him: 'Don't you know where I am?!' He casts him down from atop his shoulder, and a dog comes and bites him."

And this is understood, because this was after Bnei Yisrael had left Egypt and had seen miracles and wonders, and they experienced a revelation of God, and Moshe and Aharon were with them. Since, despite all of this, they asked, "Is God in our midst or not?" therefore immediately "Amalek came and waged war against Israel," and they received their punishment. But in our times, darkness covers the earth, and a great hiding of God's face, as it says in the Gemara (Ta'anit 25a), "Levi said before Him: 'Master of the universe, You have gone up and taken up residence on High, and You do not have mercy on Your children.'  Therefore it is no wonder that Bnei Yisrael ask where their Father is – for from where shall they know where their Father is?!(ibid. p. 115)

In terms of our intention in prayer, then, every Jew is to be considered righteous, for it is impossible to define him as wicked; only non-Jews can fall into that category:

Therefore, it is clear that when we say, "Cursed are all the wicked," we can only be referring to non-Jews, … "and blessed are all the righteous" refers to all of Israel, who, on the basis of the quality of the generation, are all righteous, as explained above, (ibid.)

In social terms, the conclusion is that in our days there is no Jew whom we can curse. Once the element of brazenness is removed from the straying and heresy and deviance is understood as being the result of the hiding of God's face, we are speaking of the category of "one who is forced – he is exempt from Divine punishment." While up until the Holocaust one could still demand of a Jew that he believe or that he observe the commandments of the Torah, and leaving religion could be regarded as a normative or even moral deviation, the Holocaust changed this assumption.

Obviously, a person who is whole in his faith has no need for the Master of the universe to bring proof of His existence. But after the Holocaust, is it still possible to make any claim against a person who does not believe? After the Holocaust, should we still be astounded by heresy, or is it faith that is astounding? The Rebbe says, "We are compared to a blind man who has never seen light in his life, and he says of the day that it is night." In other words, in our state of blindness following the Holocaust, faith is something of a wager. A person who has never experienced a sense of God's closeness or revelation can not be forced to decide the wager in favor of faith.

In a different sermon, the Rebbe directs his great pain towards Heaven:

I am forced to say: Father, thus it is written in the Torah… Why are we deserving of punishment at a time when our eyes are unable to see, and our hearts are incapable of understanding? What will it help that we shout to him, "I am the Lord…" when he is blind and does not see? Is it possible to strike someone who is blind for not being able to see?!...

Our Father in heaven – why do You do this? Are they not of limited knowledge? And if You hide Your face from them, how can they run after You, when they do not know where the place of Your glory is…[7]

These words, directed towards God, are reminiscent of the powerful prayers of early Chassidim, such as Rabbi Levi Yitzchak of Berditchev. Two strong emotions come together here: a feeling of distance and hiding of God's face on the religious level, and a feeling of empathy and compassion towards all Jews who have left their religion on the social level. Clearly, the Rebbe is not seeking to encourage the conclusion that if our Father does not reveal Himself, we should not believe in Him. However, he does want to pray for those wayward Jews; furthermore, he wants to develop a different, more supportive attitude towards their negative religious state.

The view that seeks to remain apart, rejecting those who stray from inclusion in Am Yisrael – the position that was held by the great majority of Chassidic orthodoxy in Galicia and Hungary prior to the Holocaust – is quite understandable in the context of the anti-Enlightenment and anti-Zionist controversy and the battle waged by Chassidism to guard itself against these movements. But after the Holocaust, in the new social and religious situation that had come about, this approach was rejected in favor of a more unifying and accepting approach, returning to the "love of fellow Jews" that had characterized the beginnings of Chassidism.

The "accepting" approach also had halakhic ramifications. The halakha that permits indirect harm to one who has deviated from the principles of Jewish faith and tradition is nullified; as stated, we cannot come with claims against a person who has not succeeded in obligating himself to believe or to observe the commandments in a situation of "hester panim" (a hiding of God's face):

And because of this, in these times we do not carry out the verdict of those for whom our Sages prescribed that they be "lowered and not raised up,"[8] since there are no righteous people in this generation, and also they are not guilty for having degenerated and reached their situation…[9]

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Cursing another Jew is forbidden
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2010, 08:14:34 PM »
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/chrysler/archives/reeh65.htm


Not to Curse a Jew!

"And that (false) prophet or dreamer shall die, because he spoke false words against Hashem ... and you shall destroy the evil from your midst" (13:6).

During a discussion that R. No'ach Gad Weintraub once had with R. Yosef Chayim concerning the new generation, whose upbringing was devoid of Torah and Mitzvos, the former referred to one of the secular leaders, adding the words 'Yimach sh'mo (may his name be blotted out)'.

R, Yosef Chayim however, did not approve of this, and commented that this was not the way to speak about a fellow- Jew.

R. Weintraub was stunned. R. Yosef Chayim fought the secular establishment tooth and nail without respite. He did everything in his power to negate their authority, and the Rav's comment caught him completely by surprise. And he put the question to him.

R. Yosef Chayim replied that on the on hand, we are obligated to do whatever we can to stem the influence of those who attack our religion, no matter who they are, as David Hamelech writes in Tehilim (139:21) "How I hate Your enemies Hashem, and I will fight those who arise against You". But who gives us the right to pray for their name to be blotted out? Surely it makes more sense to pray for them to do Teshuvah than to curse them (as B'ruryah taught her husband [Rebbi Meir] in B'rachos 10a)!

On the one hand, we are commanded 'to destroy the evil from our midst', and this obligates us to do battle with those who attempt to lead us astray. On the other, when confronted with matters that are beyond our comprehension, we are forbidden to relate to them in a negative way. David Hamelech saw with Ru'ach ha'Kodesh that a great luminary (Mordechai) was destined to descend from Shim'i ben Geira, and it was because of it that he forewent his Kavod (Kavod Malchus no less), despite the fact that Shim'i was guilty of a sin as grievous as treason, declining to sentence him to death during his lifetime. How much more careful must we be, we, who know nothing of G-d's plans, not to curse others, no matter what they have done. We dare not curse the Resha'im. What we have to do is to pray fervently that G-d showers them with a spirit of purity and puts into their hearts the will to do Teshuvah.

It is only with regard to Amalek, he concluded, that theTorah writes "Blot out the memory of Amalek" (and this incorporates all enemies of Yisrael and their oppressors, who stem from the root of Amalek), and it is they whom we hope and pray may be blotted out from the Book of life.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: Cursing another Jew is forbidden
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2010, 08:29:48 PM »
Quote
Can you provide a reference for your statement that cursing a heretic is forbidden?


An herectic is someone who claims something of the Torah is not true or has a different meaning. A sinner is someone who accepts all the Torah as true but violates some mitzvah due to temptation or another reason. Today nearly all of the Jews who violate some mitzvah (Shabat, kosher, neglect Tefilah) do not just due so because of an invincible urge. They mostly think that to some degree those mitzvot are outdated, or at least that they are no so important as the Torah says. In a strict sense anyone is in danger of qualifying as an Herectic. (Just see the Roform and the Secular). So, if you curse ALL herectics in general, you may be unwittingly cursing a great majority of the Jewish People. And if you curse one specific herectic, you may be judged severily from Heaven. Who can be so sure that he has never had an heretical thought in his mind? And besides, an heretical must be punished with Herem by a Rav first.


Offline muman613

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Re: Cursing another Jew is forbidden
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2010, 08:33:00 PM »
Quote
Can you provide a reference for your statement that cursing a heretic is forbidden?


An herectic is someone who claims something of the Torah is not true or has a different meaning. A sinner is someone who accepts all the Torah as true but violates some mitzvah due to temptation or another reason. Today nearly all of the Jews who violate some mitzvah (Shabat, kosher, neglect Tefilah) do not just due so because of an invincible urge. They mostly think that to some degree those mitzvot are outdated, or at least that they are no so important as the Torah says. In a strict sense anyone is in danger of qualifying as an Herectic. (Just see the Roform and the Secular). So, if you curse ALL herectics in general, you may be unwittingly cursing a great majority of the Jewish People. And if you curse one specific herectic, you may be judged severily from Heaven. Who can be so sure that he has never had an heretical thought in his mind? And besides, an heretical must be punished with Herem by a Rav first.



I understand this, but when I say references, I mean scriptural sources in Tanakh or other respected Jewish seferim.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: Cursing another Jew is forbidden
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2010, 08:41:44 PM »
Quote
Can you provide a reference for your statement that cursing a heretic is forbidden?




"Thou shal not curse the deaf" Vaikra 19:14 (according to Rashi). Mitzva 317 according to Rambam. However I heard that a curse uttered in any other language (not in Hebrew) due to rage, without the intention of it being fullfilled is not included in the prohibition.

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: Cursing another Jew is forbidden
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2010, 04:45:45 PM »
Yes, Muman, you are right, thank you

Offline Ulli

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Re: Cursing another Jew is forbidden
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2010, 05:36:59 PM »
"Cursing another Jew is forbidden" This says the right one.  :o
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Cursing another Jew is forbidden
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2010, 05:07:40 AM »
"Cursing another Jew is forbidden" This says the right one.  :o

Is "SW" steven wiegang ?   What business does he have trying to "teach" Jews Torah?   What he said is inaccurate in any case.    We will address this further at a later time.

Offline Ulli

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Re: Cursing another Jew is forbidden
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2010, 07:00:50 AM »
"Cursing another Jew is forbidden" This says the right one.  :o

Is "SW" steven wiegang ?   What business does he have trying to "teach" Jews Torah?   What he said is inaccurate in any case.    We will address this further at a later time.

Is "SW" steven wiegang ? Yes

What business does he have trying to "teach" Jews Torah? None. I doubt he has even read the Torah. It is only a sympton of his psychological problems.
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani