Author Topic: Haiti Earthquake  (Read 9988 times)

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Offline Masha

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Haiti Earthquake
« on: January 14, 2010, 03:57:54 PM »
I see nobody is discussing what has happened in Haiti (or I couldn't find a thread). Whay is that? Have you seen Pat Robertson's comment that they have made a pact with the Devil? Do you think they are punished for practicing voodoo?

Offline Masha

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2010, 04:01:21 PM »
By the way, I remember reading Heinrich von Kleist novel a long time ago about Haitian revolution. The described brutality and blood-thirstiness of the mutinous slaves made a very strong impression on me. This is a book to read for those who still harbor delusions about the "noble savage."

Offline Cato

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2010, 04:10:20 PM »
I see nobody is discussing what has happened in Haiti (or I couldn't find a thread). Whay is that? Have you seen Pat Robertson's comment that they have made a pact with the Devil? Do you think they are punished for practicing voodoo?
Personally I find it difficult to get worked up about the sort of situations which arise when blacks are left to their own devices.

Offline Masha

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2010, 04:17:43 PM »
I see nobody is discussing what has happened in Haiti (or I couldn't find a thread). Whay is that? Have you seen Pat Robertson's comment that they have made a pact with the Devil? Do you think they are punished for practicing voodoo?
Personally I find it difficult to get worked up about the sort of situations which arise when blacks are left to their own devices.

I am not that worked up either. I am saving my emotions for the cases when something like this hits closer to home.

Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2010, 04:19:26 PM »
An earthquake is a natural disaster which could affect any sismic region. It's a humanitarian tragedy. It's not a time to make comments about race, neither to speculate about possible idolatry sins among the population. Haity is not at war with Israel. All the world is threatened by an even more serious human-provoked disaster due to Iran. This thread is cruel and insensitive. For the sake of Israel and the Torah, please close and delete it. Let's pray for the victims instead!

Offline Historical Truth

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 05:45:36 PM »
An earthquake is a natural disaster which could affect any sismic region. It's a humanitarian tragedy. It's not a time to make comments about race, neither to speculate about possible idolatry sins among the population. Haity is not at war with Israel. All the world is threatened by an even more serious human-provoked disaster due to Iran. This thread is cruel and insensitive. For the sake of Israel and the Torah, please close and delete it. Let's pray for the victims instead!

I agree.

Offline muman613

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 06:17:43 PM »
An earthquake is a natural disaster which could affect any sismic region. It's a humanitarian tragedy. It's not a time to make comments about race, neither to speculate about possible idolatry sins among the population. Haity is not at war with Israel. All the world is threatened by an even more serious human-provoked disaster due to Iran. This thread is cruel and insensitive. For the sake of Israel and the Torah, please close and delete it. Let's pray for the victims instead!

Those who engage in Black magic and voodoo are doing so in direct contradiction to Hashems desire that all humanity knows that Hashem is the only power. This is why it is one of the Noachide laws. I also know that everything in this world happens for a reason and suffering is caused by Hashem when the world is in need of correction. A wise Jew looks at the events which occur and tries to understand the reason behind them.

Of course nobody really knows why Hashem does what he does, but we should look for signs and learn from them...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 06:41:09 PM »
I don't see the big deal about what happened in Haiti. The earthquake left this Island in in the same if not better condition than it was before. The world should be thanking Hashem for this.
Does it bother you that you have to face the dome and the rock to say the sh'ma?

Offline Cato

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 06:41:34 PM »
Let's just wait and see how they treat each other (and their rescuers).

Offline cjd

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2010, 07:35:23 PM »
The situation is indeed a sad one. No one could possibly be happy to see the loss of life and suffering that is taking place. I watch the reports with mixed emotions. I would like to see the people there be more industrious and at least get rescue operations under way however true to form like most blacks they need someone to come in and do it for them. The situation there is hopeless every cent the U.S.A pours in there will end up everywhere but where it should. Its the human thing to do to render aid in a crisis and a country like America must do every thing it can to help. Like it or not its the right thing to do.
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Offline t_h_j

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2010, 07:56:27 PM »
I don't see the big deal about what happened in Haiti. The earthquake left this Island in in the same if not better condition than it was before. The world should be thanking Hashem for this.

same condition -~50,000 people

Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2010, 08:59:20 PM »
Muman: voodoo is not worse than anyother forms of idol worship widely spread in other cultures. And if we are going to say that they deserved it because H" permitted it, by the same logic, we should say that the terrorism which thereatens our world has also a reason and should let everything to H" alone, and not fight terror. That would be a good point for Neturei Karta and other anti-zionists, but it's a contradiction in a forum like this.
BTW: According to most rabbinical authorities, Hinduism also qualifies as idol worship for Goyim, thus violating the Noahide Laws. But Hindus are very welcome here. What's the problem with Haiti? Their skin color?

Takebackourtemple: Let the world thank H" and pray when Har Habayt is liberated, and avoid these racist comments. We must care about saving Israel and avoid desecrating Judaism and Torah with this stuff. (especially you who are a Jew). To H", Baruch Hu, there's no black and white, there are only Jews and Noahides. (both with their respective commandments)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 09:05:05 PM by Raulmarrio2000 »

Offline muman613

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2010, 09:07:28 PM »
Muman: voodoo is not worse than anyother forms of idol worship widely spread in other cultures. And if we are going to say that they deserved it because H" permitted it, by the same logic, we should say that the terrorism which thereatens our world has also a reason and should let everything to H" alone, and not fight terror. That would be a good point for Neturei Karta and other anti-zionists, but it's a contradiction in a forum like this.

Takebackourtemple: Let the world thank H" and pray when Har Habayt is liberated, and avoid these racist comments. We must care about saving Israel and avoid desecrating Judaism and Torah with this stuff. (especially you who are a Jew). To H", Baruch Hu, there's no black and white, there are only Jews and Noahides. (both with their respective commandments)

I dont really agree with what you are saying here... I never said that we should do nothing and leave everything to Hashem. In the case of terrorism we are commanded to defend ourselves, through the mitzvah of 'Do not stand idle as your brother bleeds' amongst several other commands concerning protection of Jewish life against murder...

In the case of the Tsunami and Earthquake, these are acts of Hashem... Man doesn't control when these events happen, no more than we control the temperature. There is no comparing Terrorism and acts of G-d... But I also believe Terrorism is a message sent from Hashem to the Jewish people as a wake-up call...

PS: Ask yourself why Sdom was destroyed... Ask yourself why Hashem send the Mabul/Flood... Why did Hashem send the Makkos/Plagues against Egypt? If you believe in Torah you must believe that Hashem can send destruction against wicked peoples.

http://www.torah.org/features/secondlook/tsunami.html

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2010, 09:13:53 PM »
Well, at least Tzvi Fishman from Arutz Sheva agrees with me:



http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/4#4034

Is There a Witchdoctor in the House?
Tevet 29, 5770, 15 January 10 05:36
by from "Hollywood to the Holy Land" - Tzvi Fishman

(Israelnationalnews.com) If there is still a witchdoctor in Haiti, it won't help. Earthquakes Are From Hashem. They don’t occur without rhyme or reason. Rather, they strike with pinpoint accuracy, like everything else in G-d's world.

Our prayers go out to the survivors of the devastating earthquake.

I know many readers think I’m a Chicken Little for my stressing the importance of rectifying transgressions to the Brit. Nonetheless, the generation of the Flood was wiped off the face of the globe for this very sin, Israel was exiled from its Land for being too lax in this matter, and now Haiti has experienced a ten-second burst of Divine retribution - as a warning to other lands.

Here is a newspaper report about Haiti, published a year ago, before the quake: 

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti — Dieula sits in a circle of women on the tiled floor of a dimly lit room here, discussing the sexual violence that makes HIV infection an ever-present danger for Haitian women. "The woman in Haiti doesn't have rights," she says.  "Our misery increases every day."

Less than two hours by plane from Miami, Haiti has the highest number of HIV/AIDS cases in the Caribbean. Ten percent of those living with HIV in Haiti are children, and in 2005 there were an estimated 400,000 orphans, many of whose parents died of AIDS.

Traditional voodoo continues to play an important role in Haiti. Voodoo priests and priestesses are considered to be traditional healers. Catholicism is the official religion, but it is said by many that voodoo is the national religion.

Fighting Aids in Haiti has meant confronting traditional beliefs in magic and tackling a culture in which many children start having sex around the age of 12.

In the early 1980s Haitians were held responsible for the spread of the disease in the United States and other developed countries.

But Dr Marie Deschamps, co-director of the Gheskio infectious diseases clinic in the Haitian capital Port-au-Prince, says the truth was the opposite - it was foreigners who brought the disease into Haiti.

"From what we observed, in the beginning it was mostly bisexuals, foreign men who came from the United States, from Canada and from France. They would come to Haiti to meet with the bisexuals here just for money," she said

In the 20 years since then, HIV and Aids have spread through the Haitian population, both bisexual and heterosexual.

"The majority of Haitians are aware of Aids now. We use radio and TV to get our message across. The real challenge now is to get people to change their behavior. Sometimes their beliefs mean they don't want to behave differently."

The fact is that many Haitians, especially the five million who live in the countryside, believe that many illnesses, including Aids, are caused by magic rather than microbes.

Because of this magical view of life and sickness, Haitian peasants suffering from HIV or Aids are more likely to go and seek help from their local voodoo priest than from a government clinic.

Perhaps even more of a challenge for the authorities is the predominance of sexual activity at an early age in Haiti.

The average age for young people to begin sexual relations is 12, with many young boys and girls starting to have sex as early as eight years old, according to Dr Deschamps.

This, plus the fact that half of Haiti's eight million population is under 20, makes it even more urgent that the authorities' education and prevention campaigns hit home as quickly as possible. (end of report)

Unfortunately, time ran out for Haiti.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2010, 09:14:49 PM »
Anyway, these sort of stuff damages the Jewish cause. We are to defend Israel, not to make despective comments about victims of an earthqueake. 50,000 fatal victims is something not to be taken for fun!!! Let alone in a forum where the Holy Torah is often quoted!!! It could be a Hilul H", better be more careful, you all!

Offline Christian Zionist

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2010, 09:24:48 PM »
I see nobody is discussing what has happened in Haiti (or I couldn't find a thread). Whay is that? Have you seen Pat Robertson's comment that they have made a pact with the Devil? Do you think they are punished for practicing voodoo?

There is already heavy looting in Haiti. 

Here is Pat Robertson's clarification:

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va., January 13, 2010 -- On today’s The 700 Club, during a segment about the devastation, suffering and humanitarian effort that is needed in Haiti, Dr. Robertson also spoke about Haiti’s history. His comments were based on the widely-discussed 1791 slave rebellion led by Boukman Dutty at Bois Caiman, where the slaves allegedly made a famous pact with the devil in exchange for victory over the French. This history, combined with the horrible state of the country, has led countless scholars and religious figures over the centuries to believe the country is cursed. Dr. Robertson never stated that the earthquake was God’s wrath. If you watch the entire video segment, Dr. Robertson’s compassion for the people of Haiti is clear. He called for prayer for them. His humanitarian arm has been working to help thousands of people in Haiti over the last year, and they are currently launching a major relief and recovery effort to help the victims of this disaster. They have sent a shipment of millions of dollars worth of medications that is now in Haiti, and their disaster team leaders are expected to arrive tomorrow and begin operations to ease the suffering.

Chris Roslan
Spokesman for CBN
Isaiah 62:1 -  For Zion's sake I am not silent, And for Jerusalem's sake I do not rest, Till her righteousness go out as brightness, And her salvation, as a torch that burns.

Offline Menachem

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2010, 09:26:19 PM »
Honestly? I just don't care.

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2010, 10:11:59 PM »
Simple. They are seeing the hand of G_d in action!!
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Offline Christian Zionist

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2010, 10:16:27 PM »
Haiti has received 3 billions in foreign aid from America since Bill Clinton took office.  Apart from this official US govt. aid billions of more dollars were poured into Haiti by other countries and charitable organization.
Isaiah 62:1 -  For Zion's sake I am not silent, And for Jerusalem's sake I do not rest, Till her righteousness go out as brightness, And her salvation, as a torch that burns.

Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2010, 10:51:28 PM »
"If you believe in Torah you must believe that Hashem can send destruction against wicked peoples."

Obviously, this is true.

However, this doesn't mean that we should think that every natural catastrophe that occurs is an act of Hashem designed to destroy wicked people or send a message to mankind.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Haiti isn't a sewer. 

I'm just saying that sometimes bad things happen to good people. We shouldn't conclude that every time an earthquake, tsunami, cyclone, flood, volcanic eruption, or an epidemic of disease happens that the victims of these catastrophies are wicked or deserve to suffer and die.

Having said that, I readily admit that witnessing thousands of Moozies perish in a tsunami doesn't bother me a bit. As far as I'm concerned it's just a message for the filthy savages to bathe more often.

If a storm of meteorites were to strike Mecca, Tehran, Baghdad, Damascus, Beirut, and Cairo, and incinerate every one of it's inhabitants I'd jump for joy.

Sometimes I wonder about my own humanity.

Offline pennyjangle

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2010, 10:58:43 PM »
I see nobody is discussing what has happened in Haiti (or I couldn't find a thread). Whay is that? Have you seen Pat Robertson's comment that they have made a pact with the Devil? Do you think they are punished for practicing voodoo?

This link has video too. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cb_haiti_earthquake
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Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2010, 11:09:07 PM »
Quote
If a storm of meteorites were to strike Mecca, Tehran, Baghdad, Damascus, Beirut, and Cairo, and incinerate every one of it's inhabitants I'd jump for joy.

But we are at war with most of those countries in fact, even if not declared. Even though destruction would always strike some inocent one, it's normal for humans to feel relief when a danger to our existance is removed. The issue is that neither Israel nor any European or American country is at war with Haiti. It's not human to feel joy at the destrucction of others for nothing. Haiti is not a threat to us.

Offline muman613

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2010, 11:42:13 PM »
Quote
If a storm of meteorites were to strike Mecca, Tehran, Baghdad, Damascus, Beirut, and Cairo, and incinerate every one of it's inhabitants I'd jump for joy.

But we are at war with most of those countries in fact, even if not declared. Even though destruction would always strike some inocent one, it's normal for humans to feel relief when a danger to our existance is removed. The issue is that neither Israel nor any European or American country is at war with Haiti. It's not human to feel joy at the destrucction of others for nothing. Haiti is not a threat to us.

I don't share your idea because everything happens for a reason. I have this level of Bitachon where everything, good and bad, is Hashems will and everything is dealt with middah keneged middah, measure for measure. I know that I suffer because of things I have done and because of choices I have made in my life. And in my case I see that every affliction is in measure with the aveirah I do.

I also see signs in nature, which must be from Hashem, including seeing shooting stars and noticing a sizeable earthquake which occured within moments of my hearing of my fathers death last week. I also see that reward is measure for measure. The things which I have been blessed with are all given to me by Hashem, including my car and my house and my pets and my family.

I lost my father to cancer last week and have been reading many of the Jewish sources on suffering, including Lamentations/Eicha, Iyob/Story of Job, and Kohelet/Ecclesiastes. I learned that Hashem can unleash rage on the people, as he did to the Jewish people when he allowed the Second Temple to be destroyed. I learned that even Job was not entirely free of guilt, and that a righteous man is judged more harshly than a am haaretz/(man of the earth or average joe). I learned from the wisdom of Solomon the son of David that suffering is a source of wisdom because it brings one closer to G-d.

But I will agree that we should not take pleasure in seeing even our enemies, which I don't consider Haiti to be an enemy, suffering. Only the true Judge in Heaven can decide who lives and dies because he knows what is inside each human soul. We can only attempt to learn the lesson which speaks to each of us...

PS: Also remember that in every major destruction that innocent ones are killed. Remember Sdom, where there may have been some righteous people {but not ten} who were destroyed.

PPS: Interestingly enough I listened to a shuir from Rabbi Benzion Shaffier on A7 radio this morning which talks about this level of Bitachon/Trust in Hashem:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1804
Quote
If you want to know if your bitachon is where it should be, there’s a very simple test. Do you go into a panic when you don’t know how you’re going to pay your next bill? Do you often think that you could have been more successful if only you’d done things differently? If your answer was “yes,” then you, like most of us, need to work on bitachon. But striking the balance between bitachon and hishtadlus is not so simple. What is my part and what is HASHEM’s? This Shmuz teaches how honest effort combined with trust in HASHEM is an unbeatable formula for success.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 11:57:44 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Saxon Marauder

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2010, 12:02:21 AM »
Gd has to balance both mercy and justice. The world seems to think that only mercy and love come forth from Gd, but so too does justice and retribution. Disasters happen, but is this Haiti earthquake a sign from Gd? If we believe that Gd is all-powerful and constantly in control of even the most minute details of creation, then yes it is a sign from Gd- or else Gd is not Gd.

I don't know the particulars of Haiti's history, but it's always seemed to be to be a vile and corrupt place ruled by dictators and despots. To me, saying that the Haiti earthquake wasn't Gd's doing is more or less denying that Gd is Gd.
Cædmon's Hymn:

Now we must honour the Guardian of Heaven,
the might of the Architect, and His purpose,
the work of the Father of Glory-as He, the Eternal Lord, established the beginning of wonders. He, the Holy Creator, first created heaven as a roof
for the children of men. Then the Guardian of Mankind the Eternal Lord, the Lord Almighty
afterwards appointed the middle earth, the lands, for men.

Offline muman613

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Re: Haiti Earthquake
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2010, 12:10:26 AM »
Gd has to balance both mercy and justice. The world seems to think that only mercy and love come forth from Gd, but so too does justice and retribution. Disasters happen, but is this Haiti earthquake a sign from Gd? If we believe that Gd is all-powerful and constantly in control of even the most minute details of creation, then yes it is a sign from Gd- or else Gd is not Gd.

I don't know the particulars of Haiti's history, but it's always seemed to be to be a vile and corrupt place ruled by dictators and despots. To me, saying that the Haiti earthquake wasn't Gd's doing is more or less denying that Gd is Gd.

Very true, and to the point...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14