Author Topic: I've known some good Muslims  (Read 8291 times)

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Offline rhayat1

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I've known some good Muslims
« on: February 01, 2010, 07:50:00 PM »
Here I go, stirring up trouble again.  But anyway, I've known two or three extremely upstanding men (all Arabs) who were devout Muslims.  They knew I was Jewish, I'd visited their homes and we had some dealings etc.  Their integrity was well beyond what I've experienced from most people of any persuasion.  This being said, I do not encourage Muslim immigration nor would I want to live in a Muslim society.

Islam is similar to Judaism in some strange (yet superficial) ways.  Their women and girls are required to cover their head regardless of marital status.  Many don't know this, but there is no basis, in Judaism, for distinguishing between married and unmarried women when it comes to covered their hair.  All are supposed to cover their hair.

Islam is against listening to music (at least in certain circles) and so is Judaism - if we take the Halakha literally.

Islam is very strict about Yihud just as Orthodox Jews are.

What's odd about those three similarities is that they're all rabbinical in origin.  No, I'm not saying this is a reason we can all just get along, but it's eerie to see these things and, at the same time here them speak of "Madrasa" (Midrash) and reciting a short "berakha" before eating ("bismilla").  I have a close friend, whom I've known for a long long time.  He's Palestinian (non-religious) and sometimes things come up in conversation and he also gets spooked by the parallels between our two peoples and our languages.

Moshe92

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 07:55:58 PM »
That's because Muhammad stole a lot of Jewish ideas when creating Islam. The Muslim prohibition against eating pigs is another example.

Offline rhayat1

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 08:01:35 PM »
That's because Muhammad stole a lot of Jewish ideas when creating Islam. The Muslim prohibition against eating pigs is another example.

Exactly - and I tease my Palestinian friend about that.  What is the monetary value of stolen religious precepts?  What reparations should we demand?  I think some oil fields in Arabia should be ceded to Jews as compensation.  We can call one "Oil Moshe" and the other "Oil Reuven".

Moshe92

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 08:06:06 PM »
That's because Muhammad stole a lot of Jewish ideas when creating Islam. The Muslim prohibition against eating pigs is another example.

Exactly - and I tease my Palestinian friend about that.  What is the monetary value of stolen religious precepts?  What reparations should we demand?  I think some oil fields in Arabia should be ceded to Jews as compensation.  We can call one "Oil Moshe" and the other "Oil Reuven".

We could charge them money in the form of oil for stealing our beliefs.  :laugh:

Offline nopeaceforland

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 08:06:55 PM »
That's because Muhammad stole a lot of Jewish ideas when creating Islam. The Muslim prohibition against eating pigs is another example.

Exactly - and I tease my Palestinian friend about that.  What is the monetary value of stolen religious precepts?  What reparations should we demand?  I think some oil fields in Arabia should be ceded to Jews as compensation.  We can call one "Oil Moshe" and the other "Oil Reuven".

Are you sure your friend exists? The reason I ask is because he/she/it is from a non-existent country.

Offline rhayat1

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 08:11:18 PM »
That's because Muhammad stole a lot of Jewish ideas when creating Islam. The Muslim prohibition against eating pigs is another example.

Exactly - and I tease my Palestinian friend about that.  What is the monetary value of stolen religious precepts?  What reparations should we demand?  I think some oil fields in Arabia should be ceded to Jews as compensation.  We can call one "Oil Moshe" and the other "Oil Reuven".

Are you sure your friend exists? The reason I ask is because he/she/it is from a non-existent country.

Hmm...  Maybe I should ask him.  Of course, he could counter that prior to 1948 there was no country called "Israel" either and yet Jews could still claim to be from "The Land of Israel" i.e. "Israelis".  Actually he was born in Kuwait of Palestinian parents.  He might be visiting this forum - so I'd better not say anything bad about him  :nono:

Offline Lisa

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 08:18:08 PM »
rhayat1, do you consider yourself a Zionist? 

Offline rhayat1

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2010, 08:22:27 PM »
rhayat1, do you consider yourself a Zionist? 

I consider "Zionist" to be an ambiguous word.  I am all for a Jewish homeland located in the historic Land of Israel.  However, I am very much against the way the State of Israel was founded.  So, if being Zionist involves supporting the government of Israel and its founders, then no, I am not a Zionist.  But I realize there were some fine people who worked toward that dream and I do support them.  I wish there was a way to start over - with me in charge, of course!  ;D

Moshe92

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2010, 08:23:38 PM »
What is your opinion on the Irgun and Lehi?

Offline Lisa

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2010, 08:39:09 PM »
What aspects of the founding of Israel are/were you against? 

Offline muman613

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2010, 08:40:55 PM »
How can anything good come from people who steal, kill, and distort? I think you have a twisted sense of morality...

Islam is a perverted religion and those who worship Allah and Mohamud are evil. I have lost respect for you rhyat1 and now I understand why you are so against the Kabbalah and other aspects of Judaism.

Islams history is stained with the blood of the righteous Jews. Islam is a system of deception and rules designed to subjugate the people.

Islam is an infection and Judaism and true Jews are the cure...

Just because you see some 'good' muslims doesn't mean that Islam is benign... Just the opposite... Do you know Taqiyaa?

PS: Israel has existed in the land for over 3000 years yet there had never been a state called Palestine... Where do you learn your lies from?

Also from where do you learn that Jews are against music? This is not true... Music is an essential part of prayer... You know that when the Temple stands that the Levites sing praises to Hashem? Do you know that King David composed many musical pieces? The only time music is restricted, according to strict Jewish halacha, is for a man to hear a woman sing...

And it is one thing for a woman to cover her hair, but islam requires woman to cover themselves from head to toe in a potatoe sack... This is 100% against Jewish belief... Also regarding the hair issue I have never heard it said that unmarried women need to cover their hair..

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,42600.msg419066.html#msg419066
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 08:53:39 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2010, 09:00:09 PM »
Regarding the Songs which the Levites sung:

Quote
http://www.ou.org/index.php/jewish_action/print/41083/
Part of why we pray is to be enriched. Part of why we pray publicly is to be enriched aesthetically. The Mishnah goes to great lengths in describing how the shirah (song in the Temple) was to be intoned.1 The music was not merely an aesthetic accoutrement, but rather an integral part of the sacrificial service. In fact, according to some opinions in the Talmud, singing the wrong shirah invalidated the offering it accompanied.2 Moreover, a Levite who wished to participate in the shirah had to train for five years3 and no Levite past fifty years of age could intone the shirah, since one’s voice begins to decline at fifty.4 The purpose of all these laws was to ensure that the music of the Temple was befitting God’s house. Do our mikdashei me’at deserve any less?

http://www.ou.org/torah/ti/5762/naso62.htm

Quote
Rashi, based on the Talmud (Arachin 11a) and the Midrash (Bamidbar Rabbah 6:10), sees in the phrase “service to a service (AVODAT AVODAH)” an allusion to the Shirah, song and instrumental music produced by the Levites. During the wine-libations of certain obligatory sacrifices, the Levites would sing and play musical instruments as an accompaniment to the sacrificial service.

From the age of 25, Levites would begin training in instrumental and vocal music. After age 50, when a Levi is disqualified from many duties, he may continue to function as a musician.

According to Rashi, the phrase service to a service refers to music because it is the service to  that is to say, accompanying  another service, namely the sacrifices. A fuller treatment of the musical duties of the Levites is found in Divrei HaYamim. For example,

    And he [King Chizkiyahu] set up the Levites in the House of Hashem with cymbals, with harps and with lyres by the command of David and Gad, the king’s seer, and Natan the prophet, for in the Hand of Hashem is the command by the hand of His prophets (Divrei HaYamim II 29:25).

In the Rashi commentary on that verse, it says that the service of music is not explicitly stated in the Torah, but is communicated via the prophets. At best, it is hinted at in the Torah.

In the passages cited in Arachin and Bamidbar Rabbah the Sages search for a Torah hint for the institution of music during the sacrifices. The verse, “all those who come to perform service to a service” is one of many suggested, but it seems to be the most persuasive source, according to Rashi.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline serbian army

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2010, 09:04:57 PM »
rhayat is real muslim :laugh: just say i am a muslim and i want to write on this forum, i would have some sort of respect for you :dance:
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Offline rhayat1

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2010, 09:25:55 PM »
How can anything good come from people who steal, kill, and distort? I think you have a twisted sense of morality...

Islam is a perverted religion and those who worship Allah and Mohamud are evil. I have lost respect for you rhyat1 and now I understand why you are so against the Kabbalah and other aspects of Judaism.

Islams history is stained with the blood of the righteous Jews. Islam is a system of deception and rules designed to subjugate the people.

Islam is an infection and Judaism and true Jews are the cure...

Just because you see some 'good' muslims doesn't mean that Islam is benign... Just the opposite... Do you know Taqiyaa?

PS: Israel has existed in the land for over 3000 years yet there had never been a state called Palestine... Where do you learn your lies from?

Also from where do you learn that Jews are against music? This is not true... Music is an essential part of prayer... You know that when the Temple stands that the Levites sing praises to Hashem? Do you know that King David composed many musical pieces? The only time music is restricted, according to strict Jewish halacha, is for a man to hear a woman sing...

And it is one thing for a woman to cover her hair, but islam requires woman to cover themselves from head to toe in a potatoe sack... This is 100% against Jewish belief... Also regarding the hair issue I have never heard it said that unmarried women need to cover their hair..

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,42600.msg419066.html#msg419066


The prohibition against listening to music stems from mourning over the destruction of the Temple.  I never mentioned anything about women covering themselves from head to toe.  I never equated the Land of Israel with Palestine; I only half-heartedly mentioned it as a possible retort my friend could use (I did sprinkle a certain amount of humor in this thread).  I also never said that Islam is benign; I only said what I said - that I know some Muslims who are good people.  It just so happens that there are good people and bad people in every bunch.  Not in the same proportions though.

As for Islam being always evil for Jews in a societal sense, I tend to agree with that assessment.  Whenever Muslims (as a society) have taken their religion seriously, everybody around them suffers.  However, during those times when they have been more moderate, Jews have thrived - arguably more so than in Christian lands.

Offline muman613

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2010, 10:40:28 PM »
How can anything good come from people who steal, kill, and distort? I think you have a twisted sense of morality...

Islam is a perverted religion and those who worship Allah and Mohamud are evil. I have lost respect for you rhyat1 and now I understand why you are so against the Kabbalah and other aspects of Judaism.

Islams history is stained with the blood of the righteous Jews. Islam is a system of deception and rules designed to subjugate the people.

Islam is an infection and Judaism and true Jews are the cure...

Just because you see some 'good' muslims doesn't mean that Islam is benign... Just the opposite... Do you know Taqiyaa?

PS: Israel has existed in the land for over 3000 years yet there had never been a state called Palestine... Where do you learn your lies from?

Also from where do you learn that Jews are against music? This is not true... Music is an essential part of prayer... You know that when the Temple stands that the Levites sing praises to Hashem? Do you know that King David composed many musical pieces? The only time music is restricted, according to strict Jewish halacha, is for a man to hear a woman sing...

And it is one thing for a woman to cover her hair, but islam requires woman to cover themselves from head to toe in a potatoe sack... This is 100% against Jewish belief... Also regarding the hair issue I have never heard it said that unmarried women need to cover their hair..

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,42600.msg419066.html#msg419066


The prohibition against listening to music stems from mourning over the destruction of the Temple.  I never mentioned anything about women covering themselves from head to toe.  I never equated the Land of Israel with Palestine; I only half-heartedly mentioned it as a possible retort my friend could use (I did sprinkle a certain amount of humor in this thread).  I also never said that Islam is benign; I only said what I said - that I know some Muslims who are good people.  It just so happens that there are good people and bad people in every bunch.  Not in the same proportions though.

As for Islam being always evil for Jews in a societal sense, I tend to agree with that assessment.  Whenever Muslims (as a society) have taken their religion seriously, everybody around them suffers.  However, during those times when they have been more moderate, Jews have thrived - arguably more so than in Christian lands.

The only time that music is not listened too is during Tish B'Av... This is not a general prohibition from listening to music...

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayd.htm

The reason for not listening to music on Tish B'Av is because of the general rituals of mourning, which include not listening to music...

http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1098
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2010, 10:50:19 PM »
http://koltorah.org/ravj/13-32%20Jewish%20Perspectives%20on%20Music.htm

 

Jewish Perspectives on Music
by Rabbi Chaim Jachter

The spring and summer are times when there is more time available for leisure activities, including music. Thus, it is appropriate to discuss at this time the propriety of listening to music according to Halacha. The ideas we will share concerning music apply to a great extent to all leisure activities.

Broad Perspectives on Music
Before we explore the Halachic issues concerning it, we should review some basic ideas about music expressed in the Tanach and Gemara. The Bible and Talmud are replete with sources in which music and song play a major role. After the splitting of the Yam Suf, for example, Moshe Rabbeinu led the Jewish men in song, and Miriam likewise led the women. The singing of the Levites in the Beit Hamikdash was of major importance. Our daily prayers make prominent mention of this singing. The Gemara (Megillah 32a) strongly encourages us to sing the Torah we study. Two sources in particular demonstrate that the Torah considers music to be very important.

The first source is the fourth chapter of Bereshit (Genesis). The Torah there (verses 20-22) describes some of humanity’s first great accomplishments and advances. Included in these advances are the breeding of cattle, the use of iron and copper implements (see the translation of Onkelos), and the development of music. This shows that the Torah regards music as a core achievement of mankind.

The second source is a powerful Talmudic passage that appears on Chagigah 15b. The Gemara (see Rashi ad. loc.) asks how come the great Tanna, Rabi Elisha Ben Avuyah, lost his faith. Why did his great knowledge of Torah fail to protect and prevent him from abandoning the Torah? The Gemara answers that the reason is that “Greek music never ceased to emerge from his mouth.” The lesson is obvious. Music has a profound effect on both the individual and the community. The (mostly negative) impact of The Beatles on society during the 1960’s and 1970’s is a contemporary example of this phenomenon. Music can draw us closer to G-d and His holy Torah or it has the potential, G-d forbid, to lead us astray. With this idea in mind, we are ready to explore some of the Halachic issues concerning music.

Talmudic Sources
In light of the above, it is not surprising to find that Chazal issued a number of restrictions regarding music. The Mishnah (Sotah 48a) records that when the Sanhedrin ceased to function in Jerusalem, the Rabbis forbade song in the wine houses. The Jerusalem Talmud (9:12) explains the reason for this decree: “At first, when the Sanhedrin was functioning, it was able to impose discipline and prevent the introduction of inappropriate content in song. When the Sanhedrin ceased to function, it could no longer impose discipline, and people would introduce corrupt lyrics into music.”
The Gemara (Sotah 48a) continues this theme and declares that the song of the chip workers and the farmers was permitted, but the song of the weavers was forbidden. Rashi explains that the permitted songs were not frivolous; they helped the workers and animals perform their tasks. The weavers’ songs were forbidden because they served no constructive purpose; it was an entirely frivolous activity.
The Gemara on Gittin 7a presents a seemingly more drastic prohibition. The Gemara records that Chazal simply forbade listening to all music subsequent to the destruction of the Temple.

Rishonim - Rashi and Tosafot
The Rishonim debate to what extent the rabbis prohibit the enjoyment of music in the post-Churban era. Rashi (commenting on Gittin 7a) indicates that the prohibition is limited to singing in a tavern. Tosafot (ibid) support Rashi’s contention by citing the aforementioned Mishnah in Sotah. Tosafot argue that this source leads us to conclude that the prohibition applies only to playing music in a drinking house. Tosafot also add two important points. First, they state that it is inappropriate to listen to music excessively. Tosafot cite as proof an anecdote that appears in the Jerusalem Talmud (Megillah 3:2), in which Mar Ukba (a Talmudic authority) chastised the Exilarch (Reish Galuta) for listening to music when going to sleep and waking up – i.e., excessively.
Second, they state that music that is played in the context of a mitzvah, such as at a wedding celebration, is entirely permissible. The Rambam (Hilchot Taaniot 5:14) similarly writes that it is permissible to play music of a religious nature. The origin of this exception dates back at least to the Geonic era, as Rav Hai Gaon espouses this approach. This exception is codified in the Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 560:3) virtually uncontested.

The Rambam's View
Although Rashi and Tosafot rule fairly leniently on this issue and permit music to be listened to on a moderate basis outside of taverns, the Rambam adopts a much stricter approach. He writes (Hilchot Taaniot 5:14) that instrumental music is entirely forbidden (except in the context of religious music), and vocal music without instrumental accompaniment is permitted only if the singing takes place in a context in which wine is not being consumed. The Tur (Orach Chaim 560) cites a responsum of the Rambam in which he adopts an even stricter stand – even vocal music unaccompanied by instruments and not sung in the content of drinking wine is prohibited.
The dispute between Rambam and Rashi/Tosafot continues to be debated in the Shulchan Aruch and its commentaries, nineteenth century codes, and contemporary authorities.

Shulchan Aruch and Its Commentaries
Rav Yosef Karo (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 560:3) rules in accordance with the Rambam’s view, but the Rema cites the opinion of Rashi and Tosafot. The Magen Avraham (560:9) cites the Bach, who rules even more strictly than the Mechaber does. Whereas Rav Yosef Karo rules in accordance with the Rambam’s view presented in the Mishneh Torah, the Magen Avraham and Bach believe that the Rambam’s view presented in his responsum is normative. They rule that music is always forbidden unless it is of religious content and nature.

Nineteenth Century Codes
This issue continues to remain a matter of controversy between the great nineteenth century authorities. While the Chayei Adam (137:3) and Mishnah Berurah (560:13) cite the ruling of the Magen Avraham and Bach as normative, the Aruch Hashulchan (560:17) seems to adopt a more lenient approach. He does not cite the opinion of the Magen Avraham and the Bach, but he does cite the opinion of the Rema. Whereas the Magen Avraham and Bach are critical of women who sang while doing their work, the Aruch Hashulchan does not criticize them. The Aruch Hashulchan appears to regard the lenient approach of Rashi and Tosafot as acceptable.

Contemporary Authorities
This dispute continues to be debated by contemporary authorities. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe 1:160) adopts a fairly strict ruling in this matter. Although he writes that it is not required to follow the most stringent opinion of the Bach and the Magen Avraham, he regards the strict opinion of Rav Yosef Karo to be normative. On the other hand, Rav Eliezer Waldenburg (Tzitz Eliezer 15:62) endorses the common practice to follow the ruling of the Rema (the view of Rashi and Tosafot) that music in moderation is permitted outside a tavern. Rav Yehudah Amital (Rosh Yeshivat Har Etzion) told me that he agrees with this approach. In addition, Rav Moshe (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe O.C. 3:87) writes that one should not object to one who follows the ruling of the Rama regarding music.
An interesting argument appears in Rav Yaakov Breisch’s responsum on this issue (Teshuvot Chelkat Yaakov 1:62). He suggests that this decree applies only to live music and not to recorded music. This ruling has been applied in practice by some individuals to the periods of time in which it is our custom to refrain from listening to music, such as the Sefirah period, the Three Weeks, and twelve-month mourning period for a parent. However, Rav Moshe Feinstein (in his aforementioned responsum and Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Yoreh Deah 2:137:2) clearly indicates that he does not subscribe to this approach. Rav Ovadia Yosef (Teshuvot Yechave Da’at 6:34) explicitly states that he does not permit listening to music Rav Shmuel David (a contemporary Israeli Halachic authority) writes in Techumin (13:187) that it is very possible that classical music is not included in the rabbinic decree against listening to music subsequent to the destruction of the Temple. He bases this suggestion on the Maharshal (Yam Shel Shlomo 1:17) who writes that listening to music “to hear pleasant sounds or hear something fresh” is permitted. It is similarly reported in the name of Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik that music of the sublime (classical music) was not included in the Rabbinic decree. The decree, in the Rav’s opinion, applies only to music of revelry.

Conclusion
What should emerge from this review of Jewish perspectives on music is that we must take care that the music we listen to is in harmony with our Torah lifestyle and goals. Music with lyrics such as “she don’t lie, she don’t lie, cocaine” is very obviously incompatible with a Torah Hashkafa and lifestyle. The same can be said regarding all leisure activities. Care must be taken to ensure that one’s leisure activities enhance one’s relationship with G-d and Torah and do not, G-d forbid, detract from it.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline rhayat1

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2010, 11:00:25 PM »
I was educated in the tradition of the Rambam, so his is the opinion you'll hear from me generally speaking.  Sorry about being so absolute about it. 

Offline muman613

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2010, 11:19:39 PM »
I was educated in the tradition of the Rambam, so his is the opinion you'll hear from me generally speaking.  Sorry about being so absolute about it. 

Yet as you can see there is machlokes concerning the issue. Is there any particular reason you are being strict in this instance? I am currently still in mourning for my father so I am not listening to music, but I often enjoy listening to religious music which is not prohibited. I only listen to vocal music during the three weeks, in mourning for the Beit HaMikdash...

Anyway, I think that Judaism is more lenient when it comes to listening to music than Islam. Singing zeimrot on Shabbat is a very moving experience and also the nigguns of davening are often quite meditative.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2010, 11:21:37 PM »
So your friends don't kill people. I guess they don't follow the Koran or the same laws as the terrorists or Sharia law folks. That doesn't make them good Arabs, that makes them off their Arab path.

Offline rhayat1

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2010, 11:25:34 PM »
I'm afraid I'll have to pass on getting into details about music.  The answer would be too personal, sorry.

As for my friends being good Arabs.  Well, I meant to say "good men who happen to be Arab".  As I said, there are good and bad in every bunch.  During the infamous 1929 Hebron massacre, there were some Arabs who hid Jews in their homes to save them.  BTW, I've got a memorial book from that massacre with photos of all the victims.  Heart rending.

Offline Edward

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2010, 07:20:17 PM »
Are you sure that according to the Halakha, it is forbidden to listen to music??!? It sounds damn strange..!

Offline muman613

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2010, 07:23:43 PM »
Are you sure that according to the Halakha, it is forbidden to listen to music??!? It sounds damn strange..!

I quoted the Halacha above... Some strict interpretations do not allow listening to live music or even recorded music in a tavern.... The strictest interpretation doesn't allow any music, but the normative halacha is that we are allowed to listen to music so long as it is religious in nature and doesn't lead a person astray, to stray after his eyes and his heart...

http://koltorah.org/ravj/13-32%20Jewish%20Perspectives%20on%20Music.htm

Quote
Conclusion
What should emerge from this review of Jewish perspectives on music is that we must take care that the music we listen to is in harmony with our Torah lifestyle and goals. Music with lyrics such as “she don’t lie, she don’t lie, cocaine” is very obviously incompatible with a Torah Hashkafa and lifestyle. The same can be said regarding all leisure activities. Care must be taken to ensure that one’s leisure activities enhance one’s relationship with G-d and Torah and do not, G-d forbid, detract from it.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Edward

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2010, 07:30:53 PM »
Well, I think the Halacha is right on that point.. Although I'm a secular Jew, I agree that some lyrics can be negative. For example the ugly lyrics of the sick  Canibal Corpse (may their names be obliterated!)

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2010, 02:31:32 AM »
Good Muslim?
A good Muslim is a Muslim who leaves his evil false religion.. that's a good Muslim!

Offline Ulli

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Re: I've known some good Muslims
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2010, 04:17:49 AM »
Here I go, stirring up trouble again.  But anyway, I've known two or three extremely upstanding men (all Arabs) who were devout Muslims.  They knew I was Jewish, I'd visited their homes and we had some dealings etc.  Their integrity was well beyond what I've experienced from most people of any persuasion.  This being said, I do not encourage Muslim immigration nor would I want to live in a Muslim society.

Islam is similar to Judaism in some strange (yet superficial) ways.  Their women and girls are required to cover their head regardless of marital status.  Many don't know this, but there is no basis, in Judaism, for distinguishing between married and unmarried women when it comes to covered their hair.  All are supposed to cover their hair.

Islam is against listening to music (at least in certain circles) and so is Judaism - if we take the Halakha literally.

Islam is very strict about Yihud just as Orthodox Jews are.

What's odd about those three similarities is that they're all rabbinical in origin.  No, I'm not saying this is a reason we can all just get along, but it's eerie to see these things and, at the same time here them speak of "Madrasa" (Midrash) and reciting a short "berakha" before eating ("bismilla").  I have a close friend, whom I've known for a long long time.  He's Palestinian (non-religious) and sometimes things come up in conversation and he also gets spooked by the parallels between our two peoples and our languages.

Yes, I noticed the same. Some fundamental Muslims were very kind to me. I got some invitations to eat in their homes. But I refused. On the other hand they don't had the ability to acknowledge, that they make mistakes. One other trait of them was, that they had a problem with the reality and truth as well as they were not able to understand how simple things in this world works.

I noticed before the parrallels between Judaism and Islam as religions of law. They are more close as Judaism and Christianity if you look on it from the outside.
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani