Please help!

[Raulmarrio2000]

Muman, you should ask your Rav about all your doubts about Hallachot. As a Jew, it's good for you to learn about all those Hallachot even when they not incumbent to your observance. I was only studying when I was in the conversion process which never completed.
As far as I know,  perfect Teshuva can grant pardon for any crime, including the worst kind of murder. But the forgiven sinner is exempt only from punishment in afterlife (Gehinom), earthly punishments which are delivered by Heaven and, sometimes, earthly punishments which should be delivered by a Jewish court ( if the sinner ought to be judged by Hallacha, Jews and perhaps Gentiles in EY) if that court does not exist at the moment and the punishment is to be administered by Heaven due to the lack of that court. Teshuva does not grant clemency regarding earthly punishment administered by a Sanhedrin.
Regarding a Jew judged by a Gentile court, Jews should not provide assistance the Gentile party in any litigation or accusation in the trial if the way to prove him guilty or debtor or the punishment he may receive is different from the one Hallacha would give him. It is also forbidden to report a Jew to a Gentile authority because he might be judged disfavourably due to Jew-hatred, but I imagine Ravs might have issued some new ruling in the last case.

[Cato]

This guy has spent 25 years in jail simply because of his continuous appeals (well documented on the internet). During this time he was maintained presumably at the considerable expense of the hard-working US taxpayer. In contrast, he didn't give the Park Ranger any time to appeal, and shot her promptly in the back of the head as soon as they had finished beating her up. The only possible reason now to support him is opposition to the death penalty per se, which is often considered a reasonable approach, but is not one to which I personally subscribe.

[eb22]

I signed the Petition as a result of what I read on the following Jewish site that focuses on the Torah:


http://www.aish.com/tp/ss/ssw/83226867.html


What stands out for me is Martin Grossman's IQ is only 77 AND that he probably didn't receive adequate legal representation during the trial process.


In terms of what was written in the article,     the following is the goal:


"The goal is to stop the execution called for February 16th and to call for a proper clemency hearing to determine if the Death Penalty is truly appropriate in this case and to ask for a sentence of life in prison without parole".


In essence,   the goal is to re-exam whether Martin Grossman should be executed,   based on the circumstances of this case.       I don't know the answer to that.     But at the very least,    I think it would be a huge mistake if he was executed without a proper clemency hearing.


Chaim,    if you see this thread,   your opinion on this situation would be greatly appreciated.     

[muman613]

I have also been asked to sign this by my Chabad Rabbis. Just about all Jewish organizations are going ahead and supporting this cause. At this time I guess I agree with eb22...

PS: Post '613'3

[Rubystars]

I did not check out the site but I am wondering what the Halachic issue is.

Is it that we are supposed to redeem a Jew from punishment by a non-Jewish system of justice?

If they choose to live under a non-Jewish government then I would hope they would get the same punishment as anyone else who committed a heinous crime.

[Raulmarrio2000]

I did not check out the site but I am wondering what the Halachic issue is.

Is it that we are supposed to redeem a Jew from punishment by a non-Jewish system of justice?

If they choose to live under a non-Jewish government then I would hope they would get the same punishment as anyone else who committed a heinous crime.

The question is not about what the Gentile Govt. does. The Hallachic question is that a Jew should not take part in or support any trial or punishment dictated in a way not according to Hallacha. The same applies to Gentiles, we must not support or assist any trial which is done not accordingly to the Noahide standards. The Noahide Code permits executions of Gentile murderers by Gentile courts outside EY even today when there is not Jewish Sanhedrin. The question here is whether execution applies in cases of partially mentally diosabled persons and whether the prodedures for trial and the method of execution fits the Noahide standards. Also what Gentiles must do wih a Jewish killer if they cannot have get him punished by a Jewish court.
Even if Grossman were not Jewish, I doubt execution is hallachically permited on him. Hallacha requieres two valid Torah observant Jews to execute a Jew. For a Gentile one eye witness is enogh if that witness is a perfect Noahide. If not, two eyewitness are neccessary. Pleading guilty generally is not enogh in a Jewish court, I don't know if it's valid in a Gentile court.

[Rubystars]

I don't care what religion someone is, whether they're a Jew, a Noahide, or follow the flying spaghetti monster. If you murder someone you should be punished for it. If they don't like living under Gentile justice they should have gone to Israel.

[Raulmarrio2000]

I don't care what religion someone is, whether they're a Jew, a Noahide, or follow the flying spaghetti monster. If you murder someone you should be punished for it. If they don't like living under Gentile justice they should have gone to Israel.

Noahide is not a religion, it's the Code  for all Gentile nations and individuals.
Now, the US law trusts the Executive power of many States to administer clemency on special cases, after the crimnal has been legally condemned to capital punishment by the judiciary. If this were in fact one of those cases, and clemency is not awarded, the Executive could be guilty of murder befor H" for he would have had retained the clemency the State trusted him to deliver.

[Rubystars]

I don't care what religion someone is, whether they're a Jew, a Noahide, or follow the flying spaghetti monster. If you murder someone you should be punished for it. If they don't like living under Gentile justice they should have gone to Israel.

Noahide is not a religion, it's the Code  for all Gentile nations and individuals.

Not for me. I'm a Christian and so I follow Christian rules of behavior.

Now, the US law trusts the Executive power of many States to administer clemency on special cases, after the crimnal has been legally condemned to capital punishment by the judiciary. If this were in fact one of those cases, and clemency is not awarded, the Executive could be guilty of murder befor H" for he would have had retained the clemency the State trusted him to deliver.

If the person being executed is a murderer they shouldn't in most cases get any mercy.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

On this issue I have to agree with Rubystars. I do not know the passages to which Raul is referring but we don't live in a theocracy. This is not some random innocent victim, but a vile murderer.

[Raulmarrio2000]

If the person being executed is a murderer they shouldn't in most cases get any mercy.

If the State aimed clemency to be limited to non-murderers condmned to capital punishment, then that State would have written it in its law. The fact that the State law gives the executive the power to grant clemency without excluding murderers shows that the State wants clemency granted also to murderers in some cases. If this were some of those cases and the Executive Power does not grant it, they would be blocking the clemency they received from the State to deliver. Since the Executive it's not a judge and has no power to condemn anyone, blocking clemency (if the case is one of those for which clemency was meant) would be murder.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

If the State aimed clemency to be limited to non-murderers condmned to capital punishment, then that State would have written it in its law. The fact that the State law gives the executive the power to grant clemency without excluding murderers shows that the State wants clemency granted also to murderers in some cases. If this were some of those cases and the Executive Power does not grant it, they would be blocking the clemency they received from the State to deliver. Since the Executive it's not a judge and has no power to condemn anyone, blocking clemency (if the case is one of those for which clemency was meant) would be murder.

99% of murderers in America and around the world get mercy, either in the form of a pardon or an absurdly lenient sentence.

The fact that this Grossman fellow is still breathing air is a testament to how weak our punitive justice system is.

[cjd]

Attacking a law enforcement officer was bad enough he then killed her with her own gun. The way I see it  he had 25 more years here on the Earth then his victim did. Its sad he didn't use them years in a more productive manor. If we start restraining the hands of the legal system to cater to religious whims the system will never survive. Here in America we have just to many different groups to start nonsense like that. We have one set of laws and they should pertain to anyone who commits a crime. The system has housed and fed this guy at tax payer expense for almost 30 years to allow his appeal. The appeal time is over and its time for the sentence to be carried out.

[Raulmarrio2000]

99% of murderers in America and around the world get mercy, either in the form of a pardon or an absurdly lenient sentence.

If you admit that 99% of murderers are not executed, why should a man with an IQ of 77 and under medication for epilepsy be?

[Rubystars]

We have one set of laws and they should pertain to anyone who commits a crime. The system has housed and fed this guy at tax payer expense for almost 30 years to allow his appeal. The appeal time is over and its time for the sentence to be carried out.

Very good post!  

99% of murderers in America and around the world get mercy, either in the form of a pardon or an absurdly lenient sentence.

The fact that this Grossman fellow is still breathing air is a testament to how weak our punitive justice system is.

Yes he needs to pay!

[Raulmarrio2000]

Rubystars, you are a Christian. I don't know which is your denomination but most Christian Churches believe that all men are born guilty and deserve Hell and they are pardoned freely by Jesus' sacrifice. If a clemency with no cost for the person who signs it is wrong, why would Jesus pay your debt when it cost Him suffering crucifixion?

[Rubystars]

Rubystars, you are a Christian. I don't know which is your denomination but most Christian Churches believe that all men are born guilty and deserve Hell and they are pardoned freely by Jesus' sacrifice. If a clemency with no cost for the person who signs it is wrong, why would Jesus pay your debt when it cost Him suffering crucifixion?

I think if you commit a crime against other people then other people have a right to hold you accountable for it. It's up to the other people that you sinned against to show you mercy or not. Of course it's a good thing to show mercy in many cases, but in some cases, such as a vicious murder, showing mercy to the perpetrator betrays the victims of the crime. Justice needs to be served.

[eb22]

I don't care what religion someone is, whether they're a Jew, a Noahide, or follow the flying spaghetti monster. If you murder someone you should be punished for it. If they don't like living under Gentile justice they should have gone to Israel.

Rubystars,    I respect what you are saying.      Yet,   Chaim has given the strong impression ( at least for me ) that the Israeli Government of the modern era  ( 1948 through today  )  doesn't base their laws on the Torah.     

Tragically,  it seems like the Arab Muslim Nazis having more rights than Jews in Israel.     The fact that Yasser Arafat and 80,000 Arab Muslim Nazi Terrorists were allowed into Israel and Chaim is still not allowed speaks volumes about the Israeli Government.      G-d willing,  a Kahanist government will be elected in Israel before epic tragedy occurs.   

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Rubystars, you are a Christian. I don't know which is your denomination but most Christian Churches believe that all men are born guilty and deserve Hell and they are pardoned freely by Jesus' sacrifice. If a clemency with no cost for the person who signs it is wrong, why would Jesus pay your debt when it cost Him suffering crucifixion?

Raul, Noachidism is a simplified form of Torah Judaism for Gentiles. I have heard of no Torah Jews making blanket arguments for why society should pity evil people, and certainly not Chaim.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Tragically,  it seems like the Arab Muslim Nazis having more rights than Jews in Israel.     The fact that Yasser Arafat and 80,000 Arab Muslim Nazi Terrorists were allowed into Israel and Chaim is still not allowed speaks volumes about the Israeli Government.      G-d willing,  a Kahanist government will be elected in Israel before epic tragedy occurs.   

Apart from the fact that Israel protects Arabs more than Jews, there are other reason why Israeli Govt. today cannot be considered a Torah based one. Torah Obeservant Jews are discriminated in many ways. If you want to work on the radio or TV, they make yopu work during Shabbat. Abortion is not properly prevented. About 50,000 unborn children are executed in Israel through abortion and the Govt does nothing.

[Rubystars]

Rubystars,    I respect what you are saying.      Yet,   Chaim has given the strong impression ( at least for me ) that the Israeli Government of the modern era  ( 1948 through today  )  doesn't base their laws on the Torah.     

I just get irritated when it seems like some people think that a criminal should get away with a crime they committed in a Gentile country just because they're Jewish. I would never say that someone should be let off the hook for a heinous crime just because they're a Christian or because they're white or because I have something else in common with them.

Tragically,  it seems like the Arab Muslim Nazis having more rights than Jews in Israel.     The fact that Yasser Arafat and 80,000 Arab Muslim Nazi Terrorists were allowed into Israel and Chaim is still not allowed speaks volumes about the Israeli Government.      G-d willing,  a Kahanist government will be elected in Israel before epic tragedy occurs.   

I hope that Israel can become a more Jewish-friendly place and I think it's very sad that it's not as much as it should be at the moment. However if there is a problem halachically with a Jewish person being judged under a Gentile government then why do Jewish people live under a Gentile government? I think if someone commits a crime they need to pay for it without special treatment.

[eb22]

Tragically,  it seems like the Arab Muslim Nazis having more rights than Jews in Israel.     The fact that Yasser Arafat and 80,000 Arab Muslim Nazi Terrorists were allowed into Israel and Chaim is still not allowed speaks volumes about the Israeli Government.      G-d willing,  a Kahanist government will be elected in Israel before epic tragedy occurs.   

Apart from the fact that Israel protects Arabs more than Jews, there are other reason why Israeli Govt. today cannot be considered a Torah based one. Torah Obeservant Jews are discriminated in many ways. If you want to work on the radio or TV, they make yopu work during Shabbat. Abortion is not properly prevented. About 50,000 unborn children are executed in Israel through abortion and the Govt does nothing.

In addition to what you mentioned and arguably as much as anything,    the Israeli Governments of the last several decades have been willing to give up Israeli land promised to the Jewish people by G-d,   in exchange for so called peace.       This shouldn't be acceptable to anyone.

[eb22]

Rubystars,    I respect what you are saying.      Yet,   Chaim has given the strong impression ( at least for me ) that the Israeli Government of the modern era  ( 1948 through today  )  doesn't base their laws on the Torah.     

I just get irritated when it seems like some people think that a criminal should get away with a crime they committed in a Gentile country just because they're Jewish. I would never say that someone should be let off the hook for a heinous crime just because they're a Christian or because they're white or because I have something else in common with them.

Tragically,  it seems like the Arab Muslim Nazis having more rights than Jews in Israel.     The fact that Yasser Arafat and 80,000 Arab Muslim Nazi Terrorists were allowed into Israel and Chaim is still not allowed speaks volumes about the Israeli Government.      G-d willing,  a Kahanist government will be elected in Israel before epic tragedy occurs.   

I hope that Israel can become a more Jewish-friendly place and I think it's very sad that it's not as much as it should be at the moment. However if there is a problem halachically with a Jewish person being judged under a Gentile government then why do Jewish people live under a Gentile government? I think if someone commits a crime they need to pay for it without special treatment.

The way I'm viewing the situation,   the issues are Martin Grossman's IQ is apparently only 77 and that he apparently didn't have adequate legal representation when he was on trial.     I remain unsure whether he should be executed.    But I'm uncomfortable if he doesn't get a clemency hearing.


The following is some additional info regarding IQ's in the 70's range.    It helps illustrate why I believe the process shouldn't be rushed:

......................................
http://www.kids-iq-tests.com/IQ-scores-70-79.html

IQ Scores 70 - 79 | Low Intelligence
According to the Wechsler Intelligence Scales, an IQ score in the range of 70 to 79 is classified as in the low intelligence range/mentally retarded. If you have arrived at this site because you or your child took an online IQ test and received an IQ score in the range of 70 to 9 do not be alarmed. It is not unusual to become nervous or distracted and perform less than what you or your child would normally score under less stressful or distracting situations. Furthermore, one IQ test whether taken online or in a clinical setting is not the final say in what is deemed a persons actual intelligence quotient. Many psychologists may perform up to three different intelligence tests to arrive at a definitive IQ score. Moreover, an IQ score can be off as high as 10 to 15 points depending on the test taken and the situation of the person sitting for the exam. So if you or your child scored a 70 on an IQ test, it is quite possible that the correct IQ score could be around 85 which is a low normal IQ score.

.....................................................................


If it's determined that Martin Grossman's IQ is indeed only 77,   a FAIR Clemency hearing under State Law in Florida is all one can ask for under the circumstances.   


One additional thought regarding the Jewish issue in general.    Something that Chaim touched on many times.      In the U.S.,   Gentile Judges have been more fair to Jewish defendents than Jewish judges.     Tragically,    Jonathan Pollard and Chaim found this out first hand.

[Ulli]

Rubystars,    I respect what you are saying.      Yet,   Chaim has given the strong impression ( at least for me ) that the Israeli Government of the modern era  ( 1948 through today  )  doesn't base their laws on the Torah.     

I just get irritated when it seems like some people think that a criminal should get away with a crime they committed in a Gentile country just because they're Jewish. I would never say that someone should be let off the hook for a heinous crime just because they're a Christian or because they're white or because I have something else in common with them.

I would say this and I have said this.

It is true, that I would never have mercy on a Somali quranimal who is within the IQ range of Grossman. But I will judge everytime in favour of a Jew, even a selfhating one (as long as he did nothing what would endanger my survival) and of cause I would do the same with a certain part of the Christians.

Before a not so long time ago, I shared your oppinion on this issue, but I think it is wrong. We have to be biased in order to survive. Ruby, the times that are coming will be very hard. I see it.

[cjd]

I am quite confused over the reasoning why this killers sentence should not be carried out after being on death row for 25 years. Why does the fact that he is Jewish even play into the issue? As far as IQ half the monkeys in jail are not there because they are rocket scientists. Should all their sentences be commuted also? This was not some teenager in his first brush with the law that panicked. He had been through the system and should have known better then to violate parole. Its clear that this guy was well back on the old road to crime. Lets be reasonable here and not destroy the law more then it has already been destroyed. This guy took the cops gun and shot her in the back of the head. He was smart enough to know dead men tell no tales. I am sure after 25 years in the system if there was any question  the prosecution of the case was faulty some hot shot liberal group would have used it to show how bad the death penalty is. From what I see this guy got fair treatment from the system. Better treatment then he gave his victim anyway.