Dear Yacov

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Dear Yacov,

I am a bit displeased that you removed my poll and stopped my Ovadia Yosef thread. I was careful not to use any sexual or vulgar insults and I abided by every one of your clarified rules. You keep changing the rules on us. The Jews who would be turned off by that thread are those who hate JTF and Rabbi Kahane anyway.

You know that Chaim would completely approve of that thread and poll.

Respectfully,
Chaimfan.

PS: Unwittingly, you have helped to contribute to the stereotype that Orthodox Jews will not tolerate any sort of criticism of their rabbis. This attitude has not only caused people to question how independent and reliable right-wing Jewish organizations are, but has contributed to anti-Semitism in general.

[kahaneloyalist]

Dear Yacov,

I am a bit displeased that you removed my poll and stopped my Ovadia Yosef thread. I was careful not to use any sexual or vulgar insults and I abided by every one of your clarified rules. You keep changing the rules on us. The Jews who would be turned off by that thread are those who hate JTF and Rabbi Kahane anyway.

You know that Chaim would completely approve of that thread and poll.

Respectfully,
Chaimfan.

PS: Unwittingly, you have helped to contribute to the stereotype that Orthodox Jews will not tolerate any sort of criticism of their rabbis. This attitude has not only caused people to question how independent and reliable right-wing Jewish organizations are, but has contributed to anti-Semitism in general.

I have family that loves Rabbi Kahane zt'l, and when I related to them some of the tamer comments made against Rav Ovadia they were horrified. That is the reaction of the vast majority of Jews, even those who would naturally ally with us, when they see the disrespect that is shown to the Rabbanim, they run.

The religious orgs are not independant, and they should not be, as I am sure you recall from Ask JTF Chaim confirmed that we are required to accept the rulings of the Tzadikim of the generation. Chaim himself said if all the Tzadikim of Eretz Yisrael would command him to perform a action he would comply.

As I have said before, the Cavod of a Rav is like that of the Torah, to insult a Tzadik like spitting on the Torah.

I will only repeat the words of the Rambam in regards to those who attack Tzadikim
"May there mouths be filled with dust, and let them know there shall be no place for them in the world to come."

[Trumpeldor]

Dear Yacov,

I am a bit displeased that you removed my poll and stopped my Ovadia Yosef thread. I was careful not to use any sexual or vulgar insults and I abided by every one of your clarified rules. You keep changing the rules on us. The Jews who would be turned off by that thread are those who hate JTF and Rabbi Kahane anyway.

You know that Chaim would completely approve of that thread and poll.

Respectfully,
Chaimfan.

PS: Unwittingly, you have helped to contribute to the stereotype that Orthodox Jews will not tolerate any sort of criticism of their rabbis. This attitude has not only caused people to question how independent and reliable right-wing Jewish organizations are, but has contributed to anti-Semitism in general.

I have family that loves Rabbi Kahane zt'l, and when I related to them some of the tamer comments made against Rav Ovadia they were horrified. That is the reaction of the vast majority of Jews, even those who would naturally ally with us, when they see the disrespect that is shown to the Rabbanim, they run.

The religious orgs are not independant, and they should not be, as I am sure you recall from Ask JTF Chaim confirmed that we are required to accept the rulings of the Tzadikim of the generation. Chaim himself said if all the Tzadikim of Eretz Yisrael would command him to perform a action he would comply.

As I have said before, the Cavod of a Rav is like that of the Torah, to insult a Tzadik like spitting on the Torah.

I will only repeat the words of the Rambam in regards to those who attack Tzadikim
"May there mouths be filled with dust, and let them know there shall be no place for them in the world to come."

Yosef had no problem spitting on the Torah when he made the Oslo Surrender Accords possible by joining the Rabin/Peresite government.

[kahaneloyalist]

Dear Yacov,

I am a bit displeased that you removed my poll and stopped my Ovadia Yosef thread. I was careful not to use any sexual or vulgar insults and I abided by every one of your clarified rules. You keep changing the rules on us. The Jews who would be turned off by that thread are those who hate JTF and Rabbi Kahane anyway.

You know that Chaim would completely approve of that thread and poll.

Respectfully,
Chaimfan.

PS: Unwittingly, you have helped to contribute to the stereotype that Orthodox Jews will not tolerate any sort of criticism of their rabbis. This attitude has not only caused people to question how independent and reliable right-wing Jewish organizations are, but has contributed to anti-Semitism in general.

I have family that loves Rabbi Kahane zt'l, and when I related to them some of the tamer comments made against Rav Ovadia they were horrified. That is the reaction of the vast majority of Jews, even those who would naturally ally with us, when they see the disrespect that is shown to the Rabbanim, they run.

The religious orgs are not independant, and they should not be, as I am sure you recall from Ask JTF Chaim confirmed that we are required to accept the rulings of the Tzadikim of the generation. Chaim himself said if all the Tzadikim of Eretz Yisrael would command him to perform a action he would comply.

As I have said before, the Cavod of a Rav is like that of the Torah, to insult a Tzadik like spitting on the Torah.

I will only repeat the words of the Rambam in regards to those who attack Tzadikim
"May there mouths be filled with dust, and let them know there shall be no place for them in the world to come."

Yosef had no problem spitting on the Torah when he made the Oslo Surrender Accords possible by joining the Rabin/Peresite government.

I was not addressing the reactions to Rav Ovadia in particular, but a more general statement by Chaim fan that

PS: Unwittingly, you have helped to contribute to the stereotype that Orthodox Jews will not tolerate any sort of criticism of their rabbis. This attitude has not only caused people to question how independent and reliable right-wing Jewish organizations are, but has contributed to anti-Semitism in general.

As I said before and will say again the Cavod of a Tzadik is like that of the Torah. If you wish to argue that Rav Ovadia isnt a Tzadik, that is one thing, but what was written on this thread is quite another.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Kahaneloyalist, Ovadia is ONE rabbinic scholar in the state of Israel out of hundreds, and he is almost the only one who supports this insane surrender nonsense. He is NOT a majority of rabbinic sages and Chaim would never refrain from attacking him.

Yosef never supported Rabbi Kahane and always hated him. He's practically a Neturei Karta "rabbi".

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I asked Chaim about it. Let's see what he says, ok?

One JTF member out of dozens opposed my thread. Everyone else loved it. Let's just wait for a ruling by him.

[dawntreader]

I will say this....

I am a Jew. I want to follow Torah.

However, I will never accept that a group of Rabbis, whether from my generation or not is capable of deciding for me one way or the other regarding either the meaning of Torah, or whether my adherence to Torah is "Good enough".

To criticize a Rabbi is NOT the same as spitting on the Torah, and it is ridiculous to suggest that the Rabbanim should EVER be considered "Living Torahs". The will and decrees of the Rabbanim is NOT the same as what was written over 3000 years ago. And much of it directly from HaShem.

To me, as long as I study...my OWN opinion is worth as much as any Rabbis.

If I were to become a Rabbi, my OWN opinion would still be as worth as much as ANY of the Sages. I would have studied the same material as they did, contemplated the same questions...and I doubt sincerely that my brain is somehow inferior, that my spiritual state and inner mind is somehow inferior to those of the sages of old.

They were men who studied Torah and had opinions, the same as I am a man and have opinions. Provided I've studied as stated above...then would I too be considered a "Living Torah"

Heaven forbid that any man could claim such a thing.

[jdl4ever]

These are fundamental concepts of Judaism, stated in the Talmud.  Perhaps if you meet true Tzadikim like Chaim in person you will understand that holy people do exist and comparing yourself to such people is like comparing the sun to a lump of coal. 

Certainly the Sages of the Talmud were holier and wiser than all of us put together.  When you listen to the great R' Meir Kahane Zs'l do you think that you are on the same plane of existence than him?  Certainly not.

We are supposed to study the Torah ourselves sincerely, uncover new things and form our own conclusions.  But if these happen to conflict with universally accepted concepts in the Talmud than they are wrong according to Judaism.   

[dawntreader]

LOL

Sorry. I don't have such a low opinion of myself.

On the other hand, nor do I have an unrealistic opinion of myself either. I don't think of myself as the sun...or as a lump of coal.

But I do consider myself someone who wants to do what is right in HaShem's eyes.

[jdl4ever]

LOL

Sorry. I don't have such a low opinion of myself.

On the other hand, nor do I have an unrealistic opinion of myself either. I don't think of myself as the sun...or as a lump of coal.

But I do consider myself someone who wants to do what is right in HaShem's eyes.

Then start studying the Torah my friend.  If you find something troubling then post it on this forum and we'll discuss it. 

[Dissenter]

I don't get it. If there are dissenting opinions in the Talmud, then ipso facto somebody's right and somebody's wrong. And if somebody's wrong, how does that make him an infallible sage, worthy almost of apotheosis?

[ihkili18]

I agree with Chaimfan on this one. Let's not forget that this is the JTF forum, not Bnai Brith. Chaim would of totally been pleased with Chaimfan's poll and comments regarding that pimp disguised as a rabbi. I don't feel that removing that thread is in the spirit of Chaim Ben Pesach and I am sure he would not of been pleased with it's removal. Remember like a week ago when Chaimfan did something similiar to this, Chaim totally took his side and said that Chaimfan has a lot of backing in JTF and that Chaim totally stands behind him. This removal warrants a complaint to Chaim and Jimmy directly simply to notify him that some of the coordinators simply are too left wing and appeasing to be in control here. I am sure they mean well but these types of threads must be allowed.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

DownwithIslam, I really appreciate your support, but please calm down. I told Yacov I disagreed--let's not use any epithets or terms. I say we wait out Chaim's decision on this thread--I made it my Ask JTF question.

Everybody, I do not hold that Ovadia Yosef is a legitimate rabbinic scholar. He's on the government's payroll and his job is to sell surrender to Sephardim. Chaim is a true Torahic/Talmudic sage, whether or not the Israeli left acknowledges it, and it is his opinion here that counts.

[ihkili18]

No Chaimfan I am pissed and we have to do something about it. I noticed a pattern developing with the Imerica situation and again now. This is happening over and over again and I don't think Chaim would be pleased. When I listen to ask JTF I am hearing Chaim say things that  are removed from the forum by the moderators. I am complaining in ask JTF as well.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Alright, that's a good idea, but we can't be needlessly antagonizing our admins. They are our brothers in JTF whether or not we agree with them on every issue.

I do think Erica needs to be banned now, myself... and Dominater96.

Chaimfan

[ihkili18]

I think Dominator96 has softened his tone and apologized. I really think he is mislead but not evil and that is why I tried to make ammends with him. He should stay and we should try and explain to him that that infamous Rabbi is really a whore. Erica needs to be thrown the hell off here and deported to Zimbabwe immediately. I never mentioned a moderators name and I hope everyone just allows right wing comments on here.

[jdl4ever]

Chaimfan, I doubt that Chaim would have approved of that poll.  Yes, he might think what you wrote is true but he wouldn't say it publicly.  You need to think before you say things.  The Sages warn about watching what you say.  On this forum we have different types of people.  We have religious Jews, Gentiles of different types, Chassidik Jews, and not religious Jews.  You have to be very careful and think before you write stuff that could offend those on our forum. 

As I wrote before, we are losing and have already lost religious Jewish members because of this stuff.  Many are turned away because of what Chaim said about R' Ovadia Yosef but Chaim is a giant and he is entitled to weigh the benefits of saying what he thinks is vital to the cause on one hand and losing supporters on the other hand.  You are not Chaim and shouldn't engage in risky behavior.  Saying  openly that the guy is hitler would drive away all of our religious members.  You think that is good for our cause?  Also, simple people like us according to the Halacha should never say anything demeaning about Torah scholars (even if there is a chance that they are a Torah Scholar or even if they are a fallen Torah Scholar).  Leave that to other Torah Scholars or to Tzadikim.  If you want to quote what Chaim said then that is fine.

[ihkili18]

First of all which members specifically left and how many were they in total. If they left because of that than screw them. They would not of been helpful in the long run anyways. The only thing we should be careful of is not to insult or criticize chaimfan. Again which member specifically left. I want this backed up concretely.

[jdl4ever]

I am not insulting Chaimfan.  He's an excellent member.  I'm just answering his questions.  I'm not naming those who left or are leaving or how many potential members were turned away on the various forums I was surfing.   I am not exagerating though that we have turned away at least 2 members.

[ihkili18]

Ok and which religious Jews left this forum?

[jdl4ever]

Ok and which religious Jews left this forum?

I'm not an informer. 

[ihkili18]

Well I will not push this any further and you are obviously free to withhold the info but I do not think this would be considered informing. It would prob just be lashon hara if anything at all. Informing is for the purpose of getting the jew in trouble and this is not the case here.

[Dominater96]

I havent softened my tone, im just not responding to you guys anymore. If you want to call Harav Ovadia Yosef names and etc. I tried to guide you in the rite way, but if you wont listen, G-d will deal with you. Callin him a pimp because of his clothing? That is the clothing that the Sephardic chief rabbis wear. Harav Mordechai Eliyahu, a supporter of Rabbi Kahane wears the same clothing. Are you calling him a pimp? And comparing yourself to Harav Ovadia, and Rabbi Kahane by saying that you have the same "brainpower" as them is ridiculous.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't listen to StørmFrønt posters who try to tell people how to run things on Jewish forums. You are barking up a dead end here, buddy.

If the mods don't want to ban you, that's their business. But don't expect any respect from me.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I thought he is called TorahTruth.