Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Neanderthal converts?
muman613:
I understand the question about whether a human clone is 'human'. Is it possible that man can create a soul? I believe that souls are placed in the body of man by Hashem himself. What kind of soul would be placed in a body that is created artificially by man? I just don't know what the answer is in this case...
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on March 25, 2010, 08:59:14 AM ---I understand the question about whether a human clone is 'human'. Is it possible that man can create a soul? I believe that souls are placed in the body of man by Hashem himself. What kind of soul would be placed in a body that is created artificially by man? I just don't know what the answer is in this case...
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Muman,
When two people procreate, at what point does G-d introduce the soul to the resulting child? The entry of sperm into egg? The union as a preimplantation zygote? The beginning stage of the embryo after it has implanted in the uterine wall? The developing fetus? Surely not just after the water breaks and the child is born (although maybe that could be the answer?) I would love to hear your answer, as it seems to me it is mere speculation as to when G-d does so. In any case, ALL of these stages take place in producing the "clone" of a human being, just as it does when two people produce a child, or when they produce identical twins (identical DNA) -except that with a clone some stages may take place in vitro outside the mother as opposed to totally in vivo with a natural conception. The only difference here is that instead of having half the DNA from mother and half the DNA from the father, the "clone" would have all chromosomal DNA from one parent (except for that which gets transferred by the carrying surregate mother/the egg donor - mitochondrial DNA is known to be transferred matrilineally). Maybe there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "clone" here. We are not talking about science fiction but a realistic scientific term.
When an infertile couple opts for IVF (In vitro fertilization procedure) is there any doubt that the child has a soul or is a human?
When two twins have identical DNA, is there any doubt that both are human and both have souls? I'm not sure I understand where you or anyone else with a similar argument in this thread is going with any of this.
muman613:
I believe that a human must have a mother and a father, come from the DNA of two living human beings. I dont know if my definition is the correct one, but according to my definition a clone would not be technically human because he would not have a mother and father, only coming from a single set of DNA.
When we are talking about cloning it means that a new organism is created from a single human DNA. They would only have the same DNA as the donor, the same as the donors mother and father.
I dont know if what I am saying is according to halacha, and halacha is a lot more lenient than I am... But I am against cloning and against genetic engineering. When mankind feels like it controls life and death it quickly loses its humanity. I believe that some human hardship was created for the reason to bring us closer to Hashem. When humanity thinks that science is the answer and we can genetically engineer whatever kind of children we want, without any diseases, and they are all intelligent {or dumb}, it will become like the worlds I read about in Highschool english class, the storys of Brave New World and 1984.
But I think this talk about clones is veering a bit from the original topic of Neanderthals. I still believe that they are not human and thus would not be eligible to convert to Judaism.
--- Quote ---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_new_world
Brave New World is a novel by Aldous Huxley, written in 1931 and published in 1932. Set in the London of AD 2540 (632 A.F. in the book), the novel anticipates developments in reproductive technology and sleep-learning that combine to change society. The future society is an embodiment of the ideals that form the basis of futurism. Huxley answered this book with a reassessment in an essay, Brave New World Revisited (1958), and with his final work, a novel titled Island (1962), both summarized below.
In 1999, the Modern Library ranked Brave New World fifth on its list of the 100 best English-language novels of the 20th century.[1]
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Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on March 25, 2010, 11:10:50 AM ---
When humanity thinks that science is the answer and we can genetically engineer whatever kind of children we want, without any diseases, and they are all intelligent {or dumb}, it will become like the worlds I read about in Highschool english class, the storys of Brave New World and 1984.
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Who said anything about doing that? It sounds like you are confusing two different things.
A clone would have all the same genetic strengths and all the same genetic weaknesses as its DNA donor.
Genetic engineering is an entire discipline in biology which is not limited to something petty and beyond realistic scope like what you presented.
I have read Brave New world and 1984, both excellent books.
Rubystars:
--- Quote from: muman613 on March 25, 2010, 08:59:14 AM ---I understand the question about whether a human clone is 'human'. Is it possible that man can create a soul? I believe that souls are placed in the body of man by Hashem himself. What kind of soul would be placed in a body that is created artificially by man? I just don't know what the answer is in this case...
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Clones are like identical twins. Identical twins both have their own unique soul, right? It's just that they came from the same sperm and egg.
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