News just keeps getting worse for homosexuality

[muman613]

Muman,
You state,  "But the issue which I brought up concerns the dirtiness of the homosexual sex act, the related infection of germs which cause a variety of STDs, and the fact that spiritual infections are reflected in physical infections"  This is exactly the kind of mendacity of which I speak.  Our conversation was about showering next to someone, now you are introducing sex acts.  This is why you are an untrustworthy person because you argue in a very dishonest way.

JTFEnthusiast,

You can think what you will about me, it will not make any difference to me... I hope you truly regret your sins so that you never repeat them. If this is so I can care less what you think about me..

[JTFenthusiast2]

JTFEnthusiast, is it possible that since AIDS is more common among the homosexual population, that they could be more susceptible to carrying MRSA infection because of their weakened immune system, and possibly deposit this bacteria in a shower? This might be a stretch but I've heard of swabs being taken finding it on places like shopping carts and playground equipment.

No Ruby, but I understand why you would think this.  In America, AIDS is more common among homosexual men, that's just a fact. Anyone who denies that is being very dishonest.

People who carry MRSA are people who are exposed to it all the time, this is primarily hospital personnel.  People on the street may or may not be colonized with MRSA, but MRSA is not spread like the common cold through germs on tables or aerosolization of germs through say sneezing.  In order to get MRSA, you need to have open wounds, an abscess, some relatively large portal of entry.  These swabs that you have seen on the television come up positive because people wipe their noses and then touch surfaces of objects.  Now staph, regularly old staph is a common organism in everyone's noses, but MRSA is not.  

[Rubystars]

Thanks JTFEnthusiast. That helps me understand it a lot better.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Muman,

If I were you, I would worry about your own sins.  I know I have my foibles and personal failings.  People like yourself don't ever look in their own 'backyard' because that is far more difficult and painful.  However this is exactly why I do not fear judgement from people like yourself.  

[Rubystars]

It's not really true about Muman. He has been examining his own actions and becoming more observant over time. He talks about this process frequently. I dont think he's trying to say he's perfect and everyone else isn't.

[muman613]

It's not really true about Muman. He has been examining his own actions and becoming more observant over time. He talks about this process frequently. I dont think he's trying to say he's perfect and everyone else isn't.

Thank you..

I have been doing Teshuva for almost seven years and have become more observant of the commandments every year. I have never claimed to be perfect and I often reveal the things which I have changed in my own life. I have come very far from where I was in 2003 when I started this process. I have been very fortunate and blessed in many ways since I have returned to Jewish life.

It is sad that people like JTFE2 seem to need to rail against righteous people..

[muman613]

Muman,

If I were you, I would worry about your own sins.  I know I have my foibles and personal failings.  People like yourself don't ever look in their own 'backyard' because that is far more difficult and painful.  However this is exactly why I do not fear judgement from people like yourself.  

If I were you I would worry about your sins... I did not start out trying to lecture you on anything. You on the other hand seem to have an axe to grind with those who follow the Torah.

http://www.secretscale.com/video_on_hiv_in_ny_state_and_gay.htm

[JTFenthusiast2]

No Muman,

I have already exposed you as a very duplicitous character through your putting words in my mouth and purposefully adding additional commentary thereby distorting my original statements in a manner right out of the Goebbels big lie theory.  Anyone can go back to the posts and look at my comments and then see in the next post the FICTION you added to them. 

 I rally against hypocrites.  I respect  and love truly righteous good people.  They have my gratitude and undying loyalty. 

[muman613]

No Muman,

I have already exposed you as a very duplicitous character through your putting words in my mouth and purposefully distorting my statements in a manner right out of Goebbels.  Anyone can go back tot he posts and look at my comments and then see in the next post the FICTION you added to them.  I rally against hypocrites.  I respect  and love truly righteous good people.  They have my gratitude and  undying loyalty.

Oh please, you are the one who puts words in others mouth... I am tired of your idiocy sir...

I have gone back and looked at the posts I made and nowhere did I attack you or namecall you. History shows that you are the one who started down that path, then you claim I am the one who twisted your words...

Please quote for me what I said against you, what I said which upset you? Since I don't want to shower with gays? What kind of idiocy are you spouting.

I doubt you would know what is right and what is wrong if it was staring you in the face....

[muman613]

First message I posted in this topic:

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,44265.msg429702.html#msg429702

Regardless, it is a sickness which needs to be dealt with. Gay men are a danger to other men... I would never shower in the same showers as any gay men for fear of germs. I know some will argue with me, but too bad... I will not take a chance dealing with people with such perversions.

To which you replied:

You are more obsessed with homosexuality than homosexuals.  I have news for you, I doubt anyone is looking at you in the shower.  And for G-d's sake, go into a stall with a private curtain like most adults.  The only thing you can catch in a shower is athlete's foot.  Grow up

So right off the bat you started to attack me for my feelings... {You are more obsessed with homosexuality than homosexuals, etc., etc..}

The I respond yo your insult {Grow up...} like this:

Your telling me to grow up.... Please.. The issue is that I dont think that unrepentant homosexuals should be in the same system as I am. I am old enough to have grown up long before this permissive and sick attitude concerning bending over for the gay agenda began. When I went to school I didn't know a single gay person... I went to an all boys school and if there were gay boys they kept it in the closet and they would have been ridiculed if they let others know.

The issue is not looking at me in the showers... The issue is that gays bring germs and disease where they go. Do you wonder why they close down the gay baths? It is a breeding ground for death and disease. AIDS is not the only sickness which the homosexuals bring.

Im sorry JTFEnthusiast but your lifestyle is against the Torah and against common sense. I hope you do not persist in this perversion...

Here again I tried to answer the issue... The issue was that I am concerned with the issue of the dirtiness, both spiritually and physically of the gay lifestyle.. I also tried a friendly rebuke, as I am commanded by Torah... If you expect to be accepted as a Torah Jew you must not persist in believing that your transgressions are not transgressions.

But you then come on against me again:

As i have told you many times, I do not act on my homosexual feelings, so you are not insulting me in the way you imagine.  I'm actually not insulted by you at all.  You're extremely ignorant in this regard, Muman, and recalcitrant in your desire to remain ignorant.  That's a sin.

Your shower scenario is fiction.  Most men when they take showers in public places actively go out of their way to avoid even the semblance of looking in the direction of another man.  I certainly do.  No one sane wants to activate the neurotic homosexual panic of a would be gay basher.  As a physician, your statement about 'homosexuals bringing germs wherever they go" is just about the most ignorant thing I have heard on this forum.  In order to get any kind of STD, you need to be in close intimate contact, you don't get STDs by shaking someone's hand or sitting close to them.  I can't believe someone who is so intelligent in other areas is so blinded by his phobia--and yes, Muman, you are phobic.  Your specific fears expressed here are irrational.  When I was gay, no one ever got a disease from me, never mind sitting next to me.

I can't believe that I am even responding to this silliness.

So now you appear like I am trying to insult you, which I was not doing, and as is demonstrated in the history and the quotes above... You start in calling me ignorant & phobic amongst some of your other accusations. You start asserting that I said that you can catch STDs from shaking hands {which I never said}... I simply started my posting on this thread by saying that I don't want to be exposed to the germs.  If you don't understand that then maybe someday I will explain it to you.

I am through arguing with you...

[muman613]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1619871/

Most studies of sexually transmitted diseases in homosexual men have examined prevalence in clinic populations; for comparative purposes, we analyzed data from a survey of 4,329 gay men conducted in 1977. Among 4,212 respondents to the self-administered questionnaire, 66.8 per cent reported previous infection with pediculosis; 38.4 per cent, gonorrhea; 24.1 per cent, nonspecific urethritis; 18.1 per cent, venereal warts; 13.5 per cent, syphilis; 9.7 per cent, hepatitis; and 9.4 per cent, herpes. Number of different lifetime sexual partners best predicted histories of symphilis (r = .249), gonorrhea (r = .402), and the other diseases; frequency of checkups, years as a practicing homosexual, and furtive sexual activities were among the many other significant correlates of venereal infections. Respondents most often sought examinations from private physicians (39.4 per cent); those who visited gay clinics were examined most often and felt most positive about their medical care. Gay men who participated in the survey reported frequent infections with many of the same sexually transmitted diseases often seen in private medical practices, public VD clinics, and gay health centers. Since high rates of disease are related to large numbers of different partners, frequent exposures with anonymous contacts, and anal intercourse, we recommend frequent examinations for those whose life-styles include these characteristics.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Muman,

You are a waste of my time. I know you're a liar and so does anyone who reads your responses to my posts.  Every fake moralistic post of yours includes outright taqqiyah about how I feel or think.  All of which were fueled by your narcissistic need to be seen as uber moral when your behaviors shows you to be the exact opposite of moral.  Moral people don't distort what other people say in order to falsely impune their character.  All of your comments imply that I want you to say gay is ok--what total [censored]!  I have said 90 times that I am not a practicing homosexual and in every post, you refer to me as supporting the gay lifestyle.  If I supported it, you fool, I would be in it! Your multiple comments about not wanting to stand near a person in a shower for fear of contagion, only to then be denied when Zelhar confronted you.  How did you avoid this? By changing the entire premise of the argument, stating that you were concerned about germs spread through sex in a shower.  When was that ever an element of this argument, you ball faced liar.    You have no honor whatsoever

[muman613]

Muman,

You are a waste of my time. I know you're a liar and so does anyone who reads your responses to my posts.  Every fake moralistic post of yours includes outright taqqiyah about how I feel or think.  All of which were fueled by your narcissistic need to be seen as uber moral when your behaviors shows you to be the exact opposite of moral.  Moral people don't distort what other people say in order to falsely impune their character.  All of your comments imply that I want you to say gay is ok--what total excrement!  I have said 90 times that I am not a practicing homosexual and in every post, you refer to me as supporting the gay lifestyle.  If I supported it, you fool, I would be in it! Your multiple comments about not wanting to stand near a person in a shower for fear of contagion, only to then be denied when Zelhar confronted you.  How did you avoid this? By changing the entire premise of the argument, stating that you were concerned about germs spread through sex in a shower.  When was that ever an element of this argument, you ball faced liar.    You have no honor whatsoever

Mr JTFE2 you have no honor... As I demonstrated above you are full of BS... You started in attacking me, lied about what I said, and you persist in your denial.

I believe that you have been exposed and I hope that you regret what you have said.

Your multiple comments about not wanting to stand near a person in a shower for fear of contagion, only to then be denied when Zelhar confronted you.

I did not deny making comments about not wanting to be in a public shower with gays.. But nowhere did I say that I believed I could catch gayness, which is what Zelhar asked about... {Do you even read these postings?}..

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,44265.msg429910.html#msg429910

Muman, do you think one can catch gayness by standing too close to an infected person in the showers ?

To which I replied:

Zelhar,

Are you being stupid?

A persons sexual attraction is the result of a complex behavioral process. There is no way one can catch 'gayness' from another through a shower. But the issue which I brought up concerns the dirtiness of the homosexual sex act, the related infection of germs which cause a variety of STDs, and the fact that spiritual infections are reflected in physical infections.

See my above post which explains from a statistical perspective the rate of infection of gay men...

Moral people don't distort what other people say in order to falsely impune their character.

See the above copy of the thread posts and see who falsely impunes the character of the other..

PS: It appears to me you have plenty of time to waste...

PPS: The dangers which I talk about are not merely the infection of the body, but the infection of the soul...

[JTFenthusiast2]

Muman,

I'm done with you and your lying, distortions, and covering up.  Keep selectively posting. Anyone who follows the entire thread will see that my characterization and quoting of your behavior here is meticulous.  Keep Goebbelsing away.  I have other things to do with my life

[muman613]

Muman,

I'm done with you and your lying, distortions, and covering up.  Keep selectively posting. Anyone who follows the entire thread will see that my characterization and quoting of your behavior here is meticulous.  Keep Goebbelsing away.  I have other things to do with my life

OOo, you got me... Are you happy? Pathetic!

[JTFenthusiast2]

Interesting you didn't post any of your comments that you then denied to Zelhar.  Like this one

"Regardless, it is a sickness which needs to be dealt with. Gay men are a danger to other men... I would never shower in the same showers as any gay men for fear of germs. I know some will argue with me, but too bad... I will not take a chance dealing with people with such perversions."

Then you state, "Zelhar,

Are you being stupid?

A persons sexual attraction is the result of a complex behavioral process. There is no way one can catch 'gayness' from another through a shower. But the issue which I brought up concerns the dirtiness of the homosexual sex act, the related infection of germs which cause a variety of STDs, and the fact that spiritual infections are reflected in physical infections"

Gee, that's odd, our argument had to do with standing in the shower next to someone, now you've lied yet again about what you said, but it's plain as day what you originally said.

Muman, your hypocrisy is all over this thread.  I mean and you are not even honest with yourself, that's the greatest tragedy here.

[muman613]

Interesting you didn't post any of your comments that you then denied to Zelhar.  Like this one

"Regardless, it is a sickness which needs to be dealt with. Gay men are a danger to other men... I would never shower in the same showers as any gay men for fear of germs. I know some will argue with me, but too bad... I will not take a chance dealing with people with such perversions."

Muman, your hypocrisy is all over this thread.  I mean and you are not even honest with yourself, that's the greatest tragedy here.

You obviously didn't read when I reposted this about four posts above:

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,44265.msg429942.html#msg429942

Give it up man... You are not winning...

[JTFenthusiast2]

No Muman, I won about 10 posts ago, but I resent watching a Jew engage in Goebbels like behavior.  I've gotten many comments about how I should not waste my time arguing with you, but you're a liar and that offends me.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Gentlemen, please! Why all of the insults and nasty name-calling? This is embarrassing.

JTFE, from the start you felt personally offended by this thread. But the purpose of this thread was not to offend righteous individuals like yourself.

You are righteous, JTFE. I have the utmost respect and admiration for you. Why? Because G-d has severely tested you by giving you a sexual desire which is forbidden. And you are passing the test every day that you avoid indulging your sexual desire. That is very difficult to do, and I sincerely salute you. In my book, you're a hero.

If you recall, JTFE, everyone on this forum was very supportive and expressed admiration for you when you revealed to us the test that you have in your life. No one hated you or looked down at you, G-d forbid. On the contrary, every moral person should look up to you.

JTFE, you should not take threads like this personally. They are not aimed at you. They are aimed at convincing active homosexuals to change their nightmarish existence. BTW, sinful heterosexuals also have a nightmarish existence.

Muman, JTFE lashed out because he felt personally offended by this thread. I think you should have responded the way I did - with ahavat yisrael (love of one's fellow Jews). To try to humiliate JTFE for his past actions is not the Torah way. To publicly shame someone who has changed their ways is like trying to shame a baal tshuva. To repeatedly state that JTFE is defending the gay lifestyle is untrue and unfair. Even if JTFE lashed out, I believe that you should have responded with understanding.

When we all learn to rise above our personal hurt feelings and our egos (all of us, myself included), this will be a much better world.

I hope that JTFE and Muman can be friends. Whether they like it or not, they are brothers.

[muman613]

I am open to friendship. I have written JTFE2 a PM which I hope was not offensive..

And I had no intention to shame him, or anyone... I apologize if my original post was taken as homophobic, but it is not... I just try to avoid being around people who engage in such behavior {at least who are proud of doing such things}.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

I am open to friendship. I have written JTFE2 a PM which I hope was not offensive..

And I had no intention to shame him, or anyone... I apologize if my original post was taken as homophobic, but it is not... I just try to avoid being around people who engage in such behavior {at least who are proud of doing such things}.

בס''ד

We must be uncompromising in our opposition to the homosexual lifestyle. But when someone changes their ways, we must welcome them with open arms.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Muman, you were dishonest here from the get go. You repeatedly added things to my posts and I had to spend half of my post defending your fictitious additions.  We will only be friends when I believe you are being honest and I do not believe that.  You had so many times to be genuine and honest in this discussion and instead you accused me of lying, promoting a gay agenda (which I largely distrust and dislike), and demanding that you like or accept the gay lifestyle.  None of which I demand of anyone.  

Your comments were about showering and your not wanting to be physically near to someone who is gay; they were not about obscene gay fornication in a public place which is absolutely inappropriate and reminiscent of a time that should have never been and should never be again. I do not believe you Muman.  You had every opportunity to be decent and clean with me and you were not.

[muman613]

Muman, you were dishonest here from the get go. You repeatedly added things to my posts and I had to spend half of my post defending your fictitious additions.  We will only be friends when I believe you are being honest and I do not believe that.  You had so many times to be genuine and honest in this discussion and instead you accused me of lying, promoting a gay agenda (which I largely distrust and dislike), and demanding that you like or accept the gay lifestyle.  None of which I demand of anyone.  

Your comments were about showering and your not wanting to be physically near to someone who is gay; they were not about obscene gay fornication in a public place which is absolutely inappropriate and reminiscent of a time that should have never been and should never be again. I do not believe you Muman.  You had every opportunity to be decent and clean with me and you were not.

Once again I dont understand what in tarnations you are talking about.

I said simply:

I wouldnt want to shower with people who were gay because of the germs that they carry...

I did not say that shaking hands with them or playing sports with them will cause me to get STDs. I am simply furthering the assertion which this thread brings up, and according to google searches I have done, which is that gay men carry many, many germs for infectious diseases including STDs and AIDS.

The issue about taking a shower with gays was an example of being in a situation where I feel especially uncomfortable with gay men. I am fortunate since I have not taken a public shower since I graduated high school, over 26 years ago.... You then took this statement as 'homophobic' and then started to call me ignorant, etc.

If you want to hold a grudge, so be it... I never hated you, never tried to demean you, always tried to lift you up... If you want to hate me that is your decision.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Fine, let's let it drop. 

[Raulmarrio2000]

It's too long to read. I'd only add that men should perhaps avoid sharing a shower if one of them has a gay orientation (even if he does not act upon his urges) for a question of tzniut.