Tanakh & "The Stranger" philosophy. I'm debating my brother about illegal aliens

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

My brother has a different opinion than I do about illegal aliens.  He thinks illegal entry into the country is merely a form of civil disobedience, and we should simply love the stranger and tolerate this.  I think it is acting in a lawless manner which violates Noachide laws.  He had experience with a friend who employed illegal aliens to do lawn maintenance because he could not get legal citizens to do the work at $10/hr, or if he could they would be irresponsible and do drugs on the job.  I think if that is the problem, using legal migrant workers is both the logical and lawful answer.  I would still favor seeing someone employing their fellow countrymen, but I have no experience in running a lawn care service.

I understand loving the stranger, but if the stranger is an illegal alien who does not pay taxes while taking a job and only takes from society [aside from working for someone who also skirts the law by employing an illegal], and breaks the law just by being here...  and other ramifications of being an illegal alien...  is this not lawlessness?  What is the Torah/Tanakh/Talmud/Mishneh answer for this?

Is a stranger who breaks the law revealed to no longer be a stranger?  If he causes his employer to sin by also breaking laws, this could be viewed as a sin against his fellow man?

Many thanks.

[rebel_conservative]

I'm not a Jew (yet) but I think that he is massively context dropping, the "stranger" doesn't refer to illegal immigrants, but rather to converts to Judaism.
I know that Rabbi Kahane dealt with this issue expertly in one of his lectures, analysing the original Hebrew.
I'm not sure which one though, sorry.

[rebel_conservative]

Found this online, online copy of "Uncomfortable Questions for Comfortable Jews" it basically explains what Kahane said in the lecture.
the difference is between a ger toshav (resident non-Jew in Israel) and ger tzedek (convert).

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2672202/Uncomfortable-Questions-for-Comfortable-Jews-by-Meir-Kahane

page 81

"But the Bible tells us to love the stranger. The Bible declares that there shall be one law for you and the stranger."

Again, even if it were true that the Hebrew word in the Bible— ger — which is wrongly translated "stranger," meant the
non-Jewish foreigner, of course it would mean that one should not oppress or persecute that non-Jew who is allowed to live in Israel as a
ger-toshav, resident stranger. That one must help him and feed him and heal him and treat him with decency and mercy and respect. It does not mean that he must be given the right to be equal politically, a citizen, one who has a say in the character and running of the state.But more than that, the rabbis make it clear that the general use of the word ger in the Bible refers to what they term a
ger tzedek, a gentile who has converted and become a Jew. The warning is not to offend him or treat him in any way differently from the one who was born Jewish. And this is what is expressly stated in the Chinuch (Commandment 63):" 'And you shall not oppress or persecute a ger . . .' (Exodus 22). We are prevented from oppressing a ger even with words. And this is one of the seven nations who converted and entered our faith."And the rabbis (Torat Kohanim, Leviticus 19), on the verse, "And if a ger shall live in your land you shall not oppress him; as an ezrach (citizen) of you shall he be" (Ibid.). "'As an ezrach:' just as an 'ezrach' is one who accepted all of the Torah, so is a ger, one who accepted all the Torah. "And when the Bible uses the term ger in the context of the "stranger" and the Jews who were in Egypt, as in the verse, "And you shall love the ger for you were gerim in the land of Egypt" (Deuteronomy 10), the greatest of the Aramaic Biblical translators, Onkelos, who was himself a ger, a convert to Judaism, carefully and painstakingly uses two different words to translate ger and gerim, and thus to differentiate between the meaning of the two in the verse. Concerning, "And you shall love the ger," Onkelos says, "And you shall love the Giora (meaning convert to Judaism). But in translating "for you were gerim," he writes, "for you were dayarin [meaning "residents"] in the Land of Egypt."  Of course the use of the word ger by the Torah refers to the stranger who converted to Judaism and who is now a full Jew. The Torah understood the danger of discrimination by "natural-born" Jews against the "new" Jew who, but yesterday, was a gentile. That is why the emphasis on the need to treat the ger — converted Jew —as yourself."

[AsheDina]

WE HAVE treated them well. Are we kidding here?
We give them food, a place to sleep, eat, you NAME IT, now we dont love ourselves OR our neighbor as ourselves, its Mexicans FIRST.
We have not 'oppressed, nor have we hurt the fatherless'  THEY have MURDERED US. Kidnapped US!!!
I am so dang sick and tired of this stupid sympathy for SAVAGES.

Give THIS to your brother and tell him to PUT A SOCK IN IT


VICTIMS OF ILLEGAL ALIENS

MEMORIAL

In honor of Americans killed by illegal aliens.

Deaths that could have been prevented if Congress and the President would have secured our border and enforced existing U.S. immigration laws.

http://www.ojjpac.org/memorial.asp

[AsheDina]

[cjd]

It's bad enough the filthy illegals force there way into the country what makes me sick is they are a crime ridden demographic. It they at least came here and kept their nose clean it would be an argument for legalization.

[rebel_conservative]

What is the source for this?
I highly doubt that 95% of murder warrants are issued for illegals.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Found this online, online copy of "Uncomfortable Questions for Comfortable Jews" it basically explains what Kahane said in the lecture.
the difference is between a ger toshav (resident non-Jew in Israel) and ger tzedek (convert).

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2672202/Uncomfortable-Questions-for-Comfortable-Jews-by-Meir-Kahane

page 81

"But the Bible tells us to love the stranger. The Bible declares that there shall be one law for you and the stranger."

Again, even if it were true that the Hebrew word in the Bible— ger — which is wrongly translated "stranger," meant the
non-Jewish foreigner, of course it would mean that one should not oppress or persecute that non-Jew who is allowed to live in Israel as a
ger-toshav, resident stranger. That one must help him and feed him and heal him and treat him with decency and mercy and respect. It does not mean that he must be given the right to be equal politically, a citizen, one who has a say in the character and running of the state.But more than that, the rabbis make it clear that the general use of the word ger in the Bible refers to what they term a
ger tzedek, a gentile who has converted and become a Jew. The warning is not to offend him or treat him in any way differently from the one who was born Jewish. And this is what is expressly stated in the Chinuch (Commandment 63):" 'And you shall not oppress or persecute a ger . . .' (Exodus 22). We are prevented from oppressing a ger even with words. And this is one of the seven nations who converted and entered our faith."And the rabbis (Torat Kohanim, Leviticus 19), on the verse, "And if a ger shall live in your land you shall not oppress him; as an ezrach (citizen) of you shall he be" (Ibid.). "'As an ezrach:' just as an 'ezrach' is one who accepted all of the Torah, so is a ger, one who accepted all the Torah. "And when the Bible uses the term ger in the context of the "stranger" and the Jews who were in Egypt, as in the verse, "And you shall love the ger for you were gerim in the land of Egypt" (Deuteronomy 10), the greatest of the Aramaic Biblical translators, Onkelos, who was himself a ger, a convert to Judaism, carefully and painstakingly uses two different words to translate ger and gerim, and thus to differentiate between the meaning of the two in the verse. Concerning, "And you shall love the ger," Onkelos says, "And you shall love the Giora (meaning convert to Judaism). But in translating "for you were gerim," he writes, "for you were dayarin [meaning "residents"] in the Land of Egypt."  Of course the use of the word ger by the Torah refers to the stranger who converted to Judaism and who is now a full Jew. The Torah understood the danger of discrimination by "natural-born" Jews against the "new" Jew who, but yesterday, was a gentile. That is why the emphasis on the need to treat the ger — converted Jew —as yourself."

Thank you.  This has answered my question [along with Chaim's response on this past "Ask JTF" program].

[AsheDina]

What is the source for this?
I highly doubt that 95% of murder warrants are issued for illegals.

Go live in a sanctuary city, I did, murder all dang day.

[AsheDina]

You DID SEE that it said 95% IN LOS ANGELES, Right??
Source?
www.google.com
research.

[rebel_conservative]

You DID SEE that it said 95% IN LOS ANGELES, Right??
Source?
www.google.com
research.

I looked this up, it seems that it is actually based not on hard statistics, but the testimony of one person before a Senate commitee
Further, it does not refer to warrants issued, but only to outstanding warrants (it will be easier to find and detain citizens).
Other evidence suggests that it is actually around half of outstanding LA warrants are Mexican nationals who fled the US.

Beware the selective use of statistics.  There are plenty of genuine reasons to oppose illegal immigration without basing an argument on dodgy stats.