Author Topic: Is Greece Just Tip Of The Iceberg?  (Read 2750 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Confederate Kahanist

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 10771
Is Greece Just Tip Of The Iceberg?
« on: May 06, 2010, 04:41:16 PM »
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=532120




Fiscal Crisis: Now it's a done deal: Greece got its $146 billion bailout, which the U.S. will help pay for. But anyone who believes the Western world's financial crisis is over doesn't understand what's really happening.

That may sound like a collective sigh of relief coming from Europe. After all, it appears that with Greece's pledge to mend its fiscal ways, the European Union might have turned a corner when it comes to its chronic deficits and exploding debt.

But no problem has yet been solved, and more problems likely loom — not just in Europe, but in the U.S. and Asia as well. We'd like to be more upbeat, but the fact is Greece will have to undergo pretty tough financial treatment to get a clean bill of health.

Its citizens, who are among the most coddled in the Western world, will see their retirement age jump to 67 from the current 53. At the same time, government workers' pay will be frozen for three years, and they'll no longer collect annual bonuses worth two months' pay. Taxes on liquor, cigarettes and gasoline will rise while the value-added tax increases to 23% from 21%.

Pretty bitter medicine, and gauging from the riots and demonstrations that have taken place, we're not sure average Greeks will swallow it. But even if it works, as we said, this doesn't take the sting out of the reality Europe faces.

Virtually every country in the EU spends more than it takes in and has made long-term fiscal promises to an aging work force that it can't keep. A little over a year ago, economist Jagadeesh Gokhale, writing for the National Center for Policy Analysis, produced a pithy — and scary — summation of the fiscal challenges faced by Europe. Don't read it if you have trouble sleeping.

"The average EU country," he concluded, "would need to have more than four times (434%) its current annual gross domestic product in the bank today, earning interest at the government's borrowing rate, in order to fund current policies indefinitely."

In other words, Europe would have to have the equivalent of roughly $60 trillion in the bank today to fund its very general welfare benefits in the future. Of course, it doesn't.

Things haven't changed much since that study was done. So suppose they don't put aside all that money. What then? By 2035, Gokhale reckons, the EU will need an average tax rate of 57% to pay for its lavish welfare state.

Today, Greece is only the tip of a very large iceberg. Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland together owe $3.9 trillion in short- and medium-term debts, an amount larger than their combined GDP, estimated last year at $3.3 trillion.

They'll soon have to make massive, unpopular cuts in long-cherished welfare programs or go bust. Even Britain's in the same boat.

They must act now, because the population in Europe is getting old fast. In the future, nations will have neither the will, the wealth nor the productivity to make the necessary adjustments. They'll be bankrupt, living hand-to-mouth.

There's no schadenfreude in this for us, since the U.S. is moving down the same path. Today, our deficit is close to 11% of GDP, and in just 10 years our total debt-to-GDP ratio will hit an economy-killing 90%. We have more than $107 trillion in unfunded liabilities.

As we've observed before, it seems to be a chronic condition of Western democracies that pusillanimous politicians promise far more than they can deliver — and then, almost in unison, blame capitalism (the only real wealth creator) for their ills.

Well, those who do so might want to read the recent report from the Bank for International Settlements — the central bankers' international bank. In it, the global bankers warn of a coming threat to global stability due to the West's fiscal imbalances.

"Our projections of public debt ratios lead us to conclude that the path pursued by fiscal authorities in a number of industrial countries is unsustainable," the report says. It puts the blame not on capitalism, not on Wall Street bankers, but "fiscal authorities" — a polite way of saying "politicians."

Whether it's Japan, the U.S. or Western Europe, nations today face a surprisingly similar litany of problems: too much spending, too much welfare, too many taxes, too many regulations. These are the policies that have pushed the most economically successful nations in world history to the brink of financial ruin.

The time to change them is now — before we all go over the edge.
Chad M ~ Your rebel against white guilt

Offline rebel_conservative

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
Re: Is Greece Just Tip Of The Iceberg?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2010, 04:43:33 AM »
Yes, it is.  Socialist policies will ALWAYS lead to this.  Trying to buy-off idiotic voters with government goodies financed by the tax payer will always cause economic failure over the long-term.  You cannot continue to deny reality, it will always catch up with you. 

Sadly, people don't want to hear the truth, they don't want to accept reality, they want to eat their cake and have it too.

Offline cjd

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8996
Re: Is Greece Just Tip Of The Iceberg?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2010, 06:03:58 AM »
The iceberg has more than one tip and there are quite a few ships that are sailing the same seaway. They really should not teach economics any longer because countries today do not follow any known principals of it when running their economies. I heard a politician speaking on the radio the other day and he said in a round about way that it is one school of thought today that it's more or less possible to print up money endlessly in order to keep the wolf away from the door. All this is doing is buying a few more months or even a year or so before the situation becomes so unstable that the economy of the entire world goes into the toilet. What we have going on today reminds me of the schmuck that takes a home equity loan at high interest in order to have some money in the bank. Instead of doing things to cut expenses and raise additional money people look towards borrowing which only makes the situation worse. Unless some new form of income is soon to be had borrowing only makes things far worse because the interest is another expense that can never be repaid. Greece like many other countries has little chance of any increase income. The higher its V.A. tax gets the worse the situation will get. In the end I think that all this playing fast and looses with the money supply of the world is a way to bring down the higher first and second world countries to third world levels. 
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline TheCoon

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2081
Re: Is Greece Just Tip Of The Iceberg?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2010, 01:44:54 PM »
Welcome to America in 20 years.
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline Confederate Kahanist

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 10771
Re: Is Greece Just Tip Of The Iceberg?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2010, 02:21:43 PM »
Welcome to America in 20 years.

Not if we stop race baiting on a so called black president.
Chad M ~ Your rebel against white guilt

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: Is Greece Just Tip Of The Iceberg?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2010, 03:20:52 PM »
The iceberg has more than one tip and there are quite a few ships that are sailing the same seaway. They really should not teach economics any longer because countries today do not follow any known principals of it when running their economies. I heard a politician speaking on the radio the other day and he said in a round about way that it is one school of thought today that it's more or less possible to print up money endlessly in order to keep the wolf away from the door. All this is doing is buying a few more months or even a year or so before the situation becomes so unstable that the economy of the entire world goes into the toilet. What we have going on today reminds me of the schmuck that takes a home equity loan at high interest in order to have some money in the bank. Instead of doing things to cut expenses and raise additional money people look towards borrowing which only makes the situation worse. Unless some new form of income is soon to be had borrowing only makes things far worse because the interest is another expense that can never be repaid. Greece like many other countries has little chance of any increase income. The higher its V.A. tax gets the worse the situation will get. In the end I think that all this playing fast and looses with the money supply of the world is a way to bring down the higher first and second world countries to third world levels. 
Greece can actually increase it's income by fight the rampart corruption and tax evasion in this country. It can also cut expenses by razing the retirement age (I read it is 57 now !), cutting welfare and unemployment payments, reducing government jobs head count which is incredibly excessive, etc. The problem is Greece doesn't have the will or to drastically change things.

I think instead of bailing out Greece the EU should buy the Greek debt held by its citizens and financial institutions, and let Greece go default on its debt and quit the eurozone.

Offline Hyades

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1417
Re: Is Greece Just Tip Of The Iceberg?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2010, 02:58:09 AM »
Yes, it is. If we had cut the tip much before, the rest wouldn't have appeared. Now we have to deal with it. American attacks on the Euro to make it weaker than the Dollar, countries falsifiying balances in order to fraud credits, Northern and Western Europe feeding Eastern and Southern Europe and still being bashed by them. Morally foul to accept Euros from I country I hate. But okay, people with no pride damage themselves.