Shalom

[Dan Ben Noah]

Shalom

[muman613]

I believe that you are correct about this chronology.

But there are those who still wait for the 3rd Temple to magically descend from the clouds. I don't know how they come up with it because as you point out it seems clear that we must first make the move.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I was reading the Melachim uMilchamot (Kings and Wars) section of the Mishneh Torah and saw this section:

Halacha 2
The appointment of a king should precede the war against Amalek. This is evident from Samuel's charge to King Saul (I Samuel 15: l-3): 'G-d sent me to anoint you as king ... Now, go and smite Amalek.'

Amalek's seed should be annihilated before the construction of the Temple, as II Samuel 7:1-2 states: 'And it came to pass, when the king dwelled in his palace, and G-d gave him peace from all his enemies who surrounded him, the king said to Nathan, the prophet: 'Look! I am dwelling in a house of cedar, ... but the ark of G-d dwells within curtains.'

Since it is a mitzvah to appoint a king, why was G-d displeased with the people's request of a king from Samuel? Because they made their request in a spirit of complaint. Rather than seeking to fulfill the mitzvah of appointing a king, they were simply intent on rejecting the Prophet Samuel as implied by G-d's reply to him (I Samuel 8:7): 'It is not you, but Me they have rejected.'

Halacha 3
As an initial and preferred option, a king may be appointed only by a court of 70 elders, together with a prophet, as Joshua was appointed by Moses and his court, and as Saul and David, were appointed by Samuel of Ramah and his court.



If we apply this to future times, it seems to indicate there must be a prophet (presumably Elijah) present at the anointing of the Messiah as king and that this precedes war against Amalek which precedes the building of the Temple.  Based on this and scripture it looks like the final chain of events may happen approximately in this order:

1) The ingathering of the Jews to Israel
2) The establishment of a Sanhedrin
3) The second coming of Elijah the Prophet
4) Elijah and the Sanhedrin anointing a son of David as Messiah (also Levitical priests)
5) Messiah leads the final war against Gog & Magog
6) Rebuilding of the final Temple
7) Resurrection of the dead
8 ) Day of Judgment
9) Restoration of creation to Gan Eden status

Rabbi Bar Hayim has said to me that the way he understands that Rambam is not at face value word-for-word, but that if there is no prophet amongst us but an opportunity arises whereby a court of elders/scholars can appoint a king, that you do so until further notice and until the time when prophecy is restored and perhaps a new king or new line will be in order.  Until that time, we act pragmatically and have the best possible people - the chachamim - appoint a king.   He understands that the Rambam really means this, he would want us to act and not to let the non-ideal situation prevent us from doing a mitzvah or prevent us from acting because that contradicts Rambam's shita and whole approach to Judaism, and further I believe he said here that Rambam mentions a prophet but it is "lav davka" and it means the highest level of Jewish authority in that time, whether prophecy exists (then a prophet would be) or not (then alternative approaches).

Also the way Rabbi Bar Hayim explains appointing a king is that there can be a voting process involved as well.  He mentioned the idea of chachamim nominating a handful of 3 to 5 best candidates from which the people can choose.   He has a lot to say on these subject matters.    For this he is incorporating the Netziv and the views of various authorities on the structure of Jewish government - incorporating into the Rambam's basically stated halacha which does not account for most details and usually was limited to the only real form of govt which Rambam knew - monarchy - whereas others are not forbidden and not necessarily worse.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So in other words, this is the ideal order.  But overall, it doesn't mean we have to wait for certain things to happen necessarily in order to act on others if there is real opportunity in the non-ideal situation we find ourselves in.  And in the real world as we all know, the ideal doesn't always happen exactly.  Rambam is stating the ideal sequence, but halacha does not necessarily forbid us from achieving the same in not precisely the same path, even though this is the general structure.   This is from what I have understood from Rabbi Bar Hayim.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Personally, I am hoping that the Moshiach just "appears on the scene" miraculously.

Because all the discussion about it being possible that "the Jewish people" might "vote" -- choose among several Moshiach candidates to be the reigning King -- I'm afraid that they'll choose the likes of Peres, Sharon, and Olmert as their Anointed One if ever given the chance.

If the vote had already taken place in America, the Jews would have already chosen Obama as Moshiach!

About the turn of the century, with the buildup of the Iraq invasion, there were any number of "ultra-Orthodox" websites on line, each claiming with near if not total certainty that the coming of Moshiach was immediate and was to happen in the sequence of x, y z .... .  Some were bold enough to state that Moshiach was already here and that the head rabbi of their movement had been receiving his messages to tell the Jews, etc...  Others stated that their autistic son had a direct "hot line" to Ha'shem and was communicating directly with Moshiach in dreams.  The Lubavitcher Movement split asunder, with some declaring that the Chabad Rebbe who passed on was definitely Moshiach and that he was soon to reincarnate to prove it!  ALL of these websites asked for donations.  Most of them made it easy to give by having a Paypal button on the homepage.

Me?  I believe in Moshiach's coming, but I'll be convinced he's here when I see him with my own eyes.

Meanwhile...Each and every one of those sites referred to above have witnessed an entire decade pass without Moshiach's arrival and Kingship. 

[muman613]

Massuh,

It is true that Moshiach is here... This is not a new idea and it has been said that Moshiach exists in every generation waiting for the time of revelation. I believe this and I sometimes feel like we are very, very close to his revelation.

http://www.moshiach.com/questions/topten/when_will_moshiach_come.php

"The actual date of the Messianic redemption is a guarded mystery unknown to man. It will happen “in its time” (Isaiah 60:22), predetermined from the beginning of creation. This ultimate ketz (time for the ‘end’) is unconditional: it does not depend on Israel’s merit, as it is said, “For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it..” (Isaiah 48:11); “I wrought for My Name’s sake that it should not be profaned in the eyes of the nations.” (Ezekiel 20:9)

"Even so, the wording of Isaiah 60:22 seems to display a contradiction by stating “in its time I will hasten it”: “in its time” means a set date; “I will hasten it” means that it may occur earlier, before “its time.” The contradiction is resolved as follows: “If they are worthy — ‘I will hasten it;’ if not — ‘in its time.’

"The implication is clear: Moshiach can come any day, even before the predetermined date: “This day — if you will listen to His voice!” (Psalms 95:7) Every generation has a special ketz of its own, for, as stated, Moshiach is alive and present in every generation, albeit concealed. He is ready to be revealed at a moment’s notice. In the course of history prior to “its time” there are especially auspicious times when it is easier to effect his coming. To take advantage of these, to hasten the redemption, that depends completely on us."

How to hasten Moshiach's arrival

Inner Awareness: Be prepared. Think about Moshiach. Become aware of the feelings and emotions which accompany the advent of such an extraordinary time.

Anticipation: Actively waiting for the Geulah hastens its arrival and, although Moshiach may tarry, this merely serves to intensify our longing for him. We know and believe that his arrival is imminent. As such, we should permeate our lives with expectation and hope.

Study about Moshiach: Study topics relating to the Geulah. As we stand on the threshold of a new era we should study the parts of Torah which discuss this theme, and become knowledgeable in all there is to know about this subject. The greatest fear is fear of the unknown. Learning about Moshiach will help us conquer our fears, and will make us feel comfortable with the idea of Moshiach.

Good Deeds: One good deed may tip the scales and bring merit to the entire world. We must increase in performing good deeds, both toward our fellow man and toward G-d, while specifically intending to hasten the Redemption. Every time we assist a needy person, every charitable act, every effort in studying the Torah and fulfilling its precepts - all these actions hasten the Geulah.

Beseeching G-d: When our ancestors cried out to G-d and implored for deliverance, they were redeemed from Egypt. We, too, must entreat and pray to G-d, asking Him to speedily send us Moshiach and usher in the Geulah for every day in Exile is a wasted opportunity.

Unity: Notwithstanding the idyllic ritual observance in the days of the Second Temple, dissension, gratuitous hatred and divisiveness, caused the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash and the present Galut. Rectification of this condition will bring about the restoration of the Beit Hamikdash and the Messianic Redemption.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Well the ingathering has already begun, and there have been attempts at setting up the Sanhedrin.  But we kind of need prophecy before doing a lot of the other stuff, like anointing the Messiah, 

Not really.  Based on what you said above, we might need it to annoint a king, but in the meantime we can annoint a king without prophecy if we don't stick to that Rambam literally.   As far as the Messiah, that will be a certain king in the line that is appointed and it will be proven by a particular king's actions that he is the messiah.  The Rambam writes of this in another location, where he describes how we know one is the messiah.  He will have fought the wars of the Jewish people, he will be righteous in mitzvot and Torah and pursuade the Jewish people to keep the Torah, and he will build the temple.  If a King does these things then we know that king is moshiach.

because we need prophecy to know who exactly is from which tribe. 

   All of the tribes are mixed up and lost within 3 major ones.   Why do we need to know who is from what tribe?  And how could it be reasonable to expect that there are still Jews with "pure" tribal lineage where they haven't ever mixed with other tribes over the past 3000 years?

This is also true of the Levites.

Cohanim and leviim are the only tribes who maintained a mesorah (tradition) as separate tribes within the Jewish people, so we can continue to go by that.

  We may also need prophecy to know exactly how to build the Temple. 

Not necessarily.

  And you need Levitical priests anointed to do the work of the Temple

Ok, what's the problem there?

so I don't really see how it can go too far out of this general order but it is possible that some of these things will be a process that is not altogether finished before another process begins.

Not only possible, but in my opinion quite likely.  Because we can never "Know" for sure what stage we are in, what G-d is arranging behind the scenes, and yet our obligations are always the same as the Torah lays out for us.  Every generation has an obligation as positive commandment to build the temple.   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Personally, I am hoping that the Moshiach just "appears on the scene" miraculously.

Because all the discussion about it being possible that "the Jewish people" might "vote" -- choose among several Moshiach candidates to be the reigning King -- I'm afraid that they'll choose the likes of Peres, Sharon, and Olmert as their Anointed One if ever given the chance. 

No one can vote for and "select" a messiah.  There has been a misunderstanding here.

I think you misunderstood me and did not read carefully what I wrote.  People will not just vote for whomever they want.  There will be a selection of a handful of nominees, who are chosen by the chachamim/Sanhedrin, and the people can then choose between them.   The heads of tribes in Torah were not without popularity amongst their tribes.  They weren't handpicked by Hashem.   They were "known amongst their people" etc...    In any case, that would be the nature of the "voting" but this would be for a KING , not for moshiach.   No one can become a Messiah by virtue of a vote, or performing a miracle or because people like him.   The Messiah is the messiah based on what he does.  That includes several tasks including building the Temple and leading the Jewish wars against the enemies of the Jewish people.   A king will be moshiach by virtue of accomplishing these things.

That being said, Rambam really describes the messiah as an era, a messianic age, moreso than a person.   The purpose of this messianic age is that through man's liberation from political persecution, man can then be free to create an ethical society (modeled on Torah obviously), and through this man can then devote himself to spiritual pursuits.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The reason we have to know who is from which tribe is because the Messiah must be from the line of David. 

Maybe before we know for sure, we have a king/kings who are not from the line of David, as a preliminary state.

That being said, David is not a tribe first of all, so I'm still not sure why we need to know tribal affiliation for the line of David.

But there are people who can actually trace themselves back to king David and have preserved that lineage.  How reliable it is may be with a degree of uncertainty, but certainly many people today have such lineage.

Also, after the Temple is rebuilt, there will be inheritance given to each tribe so the Jews will need to know their tribal affiliation before taking possession of the land after it is divided up. 

Source?  This sounds independent of the halacha which says Jews have to build the Temple, regardless.  And Jews have to appoint a King, regardless.   These are mitzvot and they are not affected by whether or not we know tribal lineage.   I think this may be a problem of circular logic being employed here based on a faulty assumption.

  For the Levites, it's true that we know who some Levites and Kohanim are now but in Isaiah 66:21 in a passage talking about end times it says that G-d will appoint certain people as Levites: "21 And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites," says the LORD." 

Ok, so let G-d do so.  I presume this will happen after prophecy is reestablished.  Until that time, the Jewish people does not cease to exist and does not cease to function in the most optimal way possible.   And we do not refrain from mitzvot.

Say we're wrong.  Until God speaks to us, we can only go by what seems correct.  If God speaks to correct us and appoint levites Himself through prophets, then we will of course correct our ways and go by what God tells us.

I think all of this all comes to down to one key issue.  You seem to operate on the presumption that prophecy is the precursor to performing some of these mitzvot.  As such, we can't possibly do x because after x y is supposed to happen and y can only happen with prophecy.   Maybe prophecy will only be restored to us after we do x first!

[muman613]

I heard it said that prophecy can only occur for the Jewish people when the majority of Jews are gathered into the land of Israel. I don't know if this is the case today... But if it is so then maybe prophecy can be restored.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/84902/jewish/What-is-Prophecy.htm
Does prophecy exist today?

The era of prophecy officially came to an end some 23 centuries ago. The last generation of prophets were those who began to prophecy before the First Holy Temple was destroyed in 423 BCE, though a number of that generation survived the 70-year Babylonian exile and lived to see the building of the Second Temple. Most famously, Ezekiel prophesied in Babylonia, and three prophets, Chaggai, Zachariah and Malachi, were members of the "Great Assembly" that led the people in the first years of the return from Babylon. Mordechai and Esther were also members of the long-lived generation that mourned the destruction of the First Temple and witnessed the building of the second. With the demise of that generation, "prophecy departed from Israel."

Nevertheless, the principle that "G-d communicates to mankind through prophecy" remains a foundation of the Jewish faith. A lesser form of prophecy, known as ruach hakodesh (divine inspiration), remains the province of the tzaddikim, the righteous men and women of all generations. According to tradition, one of the greatest prophets, Elijah, never died, and will herald the coming of the Moshiach. Moshiach himself is a prophet ("approaching the prophecy of Moses" according to Maimonides), and in the messianic era, prophecy will become a universal phenomenon -- in the words of the prophet Joel, "And it shall come to pass afterwards that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and daughters shall prophecy; your elders shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions." And in a letter to the Jews of Yemen, Maimonides recounts an age-old tradition that "shortly before the messianic era, prophecy will return to the Jewish people."

[muman613]

This was just posted on TorahAnyTime.com... It is about Belief in the Moshiach...

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Ezekiel mentions the sons of Zadok"

Please elaborate on this if possible.

[muman613]

http://www.jewishpath.com/parsha/shemos/understanding_the_separati.html

Parshas Terumah
Exodus 25:1 - 27:19

Separation

Part Two: Understanding The Separation of B’nei Yisroel Better ©
By Dr. Akiva G. Belk


This study of the weekly parsha is dedicated in loving memory to Mr. Gerald Goodman, may he rest in peace.

In Part One of this discussion we explained how Parshas Terumah represents a separation between Judaism and Spirituality... and the religions of the world. In this discussion our intention is to carry separation into a deeper level of understanding.

The separation that we are addressing does not include a change within the Kohein {priesthood} as some religions teach. When Hashem appointed the descendants of Levi to serve in the Temple it was an eternal appointment. {Numbers 8: 18,23;
1 Chronicles 7:6} When Hashem appointed the descendants of Aharon to be the Kohanim {priests} it was an eternal appointment. In next week’s parsha, Tezaveh, we read, “Choo Kas - Oh Lawm - Li Doh Roh Sawm {This statute is everlasting for all generations}.” Exodus 27:21; 28:43 The separation made by Hashem thousands of years ago remains in effect today.

What Hashem commanded in Exodus has been misrepresented in the New Testament. The New Testament makes many misrepresentations of Tenach. One is regarding the priesthood. The New Testament teaches that what Hashem said in Exodus 27 and 28 has been changed. The New Testament teaches that a new order of priesthood has been created by Hashem after the order of Melchisedek who they claim to be Jesus. They state:

“If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” Hebrews 7:11,12

Part of their misunderstanding flows from not acknowledging / observing the separation between B’nei Yisroel and the nations of the world, as spoken of in this week’s parsha. We addressed this in Part One of Parshas Terumah.

Another part of their misunderstanding flows from total ignorance of the Seven Noaich Commandments given by the Creator at Creation. The majority of Christians / Messianics have never heard of the Seven Noaich Commandments or what they mean.

Another misunderstanding is in who Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk {Melchisedek} is. The Torah states that he was the King of Saleim {peace}. That being the case many Christians / Messianics jump on this as a proof in their minds that this reference is to Jesus, who they claim to be their ‘King of Peace.’ Dear ones, Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk, King of Saleim {Peace} was Shem, the son of Noach. He was Shem, the King of Peace. He was the one so many of the inhabitants of the earth looked to after the Flood to settle matters between themselves. He was the one that Avraham and Yaakov learned with in the school of Shem and Eiver.

Now Christians / Messianics are quick to continue this misrepresentation by pointing to Tehillim 110 Verse 4. The word they point to is similar to Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk. It is Mahl Cee Tzeh Dehk which consists of two Hebrew words, Mahl Cee {king} and Tzeh Dehk {righteous}. It is interesting that they do not translate this verse properly. In their interpretation of Psalms 110:4, they state: “The L-RD hath sworn, and will not repent, You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.”
Why do they use the Hebrew here for the words “righteous king” as if to imply that it is the name of an individual when it is not? They are mistakenly translating Mahl Cee Tzeh Dehk as a name. The correct translation of this verse is:
“Hashem swore {to David the King of Yisroel}, and will not rescind {what He swore}, ‘You [David] are a priest forever because you are a king of righteousness.’” Psalms 110:4

Now one of the great misunderstandings is the lack of understanding in what is meant in this passage. There is a vast difference between David, the righteous king, as a priest and the Kohanim {priests} appointed by Hashem in Exodus. Dear ones, Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk, King of Saleim {Shem} was a Spiritualist priest. He was not a Jewish priest in the same sense as Aharon and his descendants were and are. There is a vast difference between the two. The limits of Shem’s service are outside of the Bais HaMikdosh! His service was to the world. His priesthood was that of blessing, encouragement, peace and righteous ruling. His priesthood had nothing to do with Temple service. In this sense Tehillim 110:4 is saying both Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk {King of Saleim} and Dovid {King of Yisroel} were righteous kings. Now please take this one step further. During Dovid Ha Melech’s reign there was no Bais HaMikdosh {Holy Temple}. During Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk, King of Saleim’s reign there was no Holy Temple either. Both kings offered sacrifices to Hashem in the absence of a Bais HaMikdosh. However during Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk’s reign there were no Kohanim after the order of Aharon like there were during Dovid Ha Melech’s life. This is a great difference. Why is this a difference? Whenever Scripture says that Dovid built an altar and offered sacrifices it does not actually mean that Dovid physically did this. Notice:

“And as soon as Dovid had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of Hashem Master of Hosts.” 2 Samuel 6:18

“And when David had made an end of offering the burnt offerings and the peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of Hashem.” 1 Chronicles 16:2

In the same sense Tenach says, “... Elkanah [a descendant of Levi], and all his house, went up to offer to Hashem the yearly sacrifice, and his vow.” 1 Samuel 1:21 It does not necessarily mean that he actually made the sacrifice himself. In fact according to 1 Samuel 2 it is clear that the Kohanim were present even though their presence was not mentioned in Chapter One. It is in this same way that Tenach refers to Dovid. We know that Samuel, a descendant of Levi, a Novie {prophet} and a judge, strongly rebuked Saul for offering sacrifices that he was forbidden to offer. [See 1 Samuel 13] This is the point. Dovid Ha Melech did not cross that line as did Saul.

On the other hand, one could argue that Dovid Ha Melech did actually make sacrifices before Hashem as King of Yisroel and even if that were the situation it would still not place Dovid or Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk above or even in the same place as a Temple priest. This is the difference that must be recognized.

Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk as a Spiritualist king was not required to offer sacrifices. In fact nowhere in Torah do we read that Shem offered sacrifices to Hashem as Shem or as Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk. What we do read is that he brought bread and wine to Avraham and blessed him. It is after this order of priesthood that Dovid Ha Melech spoke of himself in Psalms 110 Verse 4.

One should notice that even though the Tenach says that Solomon offered “a thousand burnt offerings” on the altar to Hashem [1 Kings 3:4] and twenty-two thousand oxen / one hundred twenty thousand sheep, it is clear from the size of the numbers that the Kohanim were involved. 2 Chronicles 7:1-2 speaks of the involvement of the Kohanim during the First Bais HaMikdosh. So what we observe here are several emphatic points of Separation:

- B’nei Yisroel is separated from the rest of the world... Exodus 25:1
- Levium are separated from B’nei Yisroel... Numbers 3:9,12
- Kohanim are separated from Levium and B’nei Yisroel... Exodus 28:1
- The Kohan Godal {High Priest} is separated from the Kohanim... Exodus 29:3
- Dovid Ha Melech and Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk as kings are separated from the Kohanim of B’nei Yisroel... Exodus 40:13,15

Now after the New Testament was written... The Tenach says according to Ezekiel that the Kohein descendants of Zadok, a descendant of Aharon and Levi, will be the Kohanim of the Third Bais HaMikdosh. Mal Cee Tzeh Dehk as represented by Christians / Messanics in the New Testament will not be a part of the Third Holy Temple according to Ezekiel!

“You will give to the Kohanim the Levium that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach to me, to minister to me, says Hashem G-d, a young bullock for a sin offering...” Ezekiel. 43:19

“The Kohanim the Levium, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when B’nei Yisroel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister to Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer to Me the fat and the blood, says Hashem G-d.” Ezekiel 44:19

Chassidim, as we gain a further understanding of the Kohanim we realize that there is a separation between what Dovid Ha Melech spoke of in Tehillim and what Hashem commanded in Exodus. You cannot teach on the one hand that the Tenach is done away with while on the other recognize the prophecies of Ezekiel as authoritative... which is what Christians / Messianics do. As we conclude this study it is important to recognize and to understand the SIGNIFICANCE of separation as taught in Parshas Terumah.

Wishing you the best!

Dr. Akiva G. Belk

[MassuhDGoodName]

Heavy Stuff!     

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I heard it said that prophecy can only occur for the Jewish people when the majority of Jews are gathered into the land of Israel. I don't know if this is the case today... But if it is so then maybe prophecy can be restored.

Indeed, we believe prophecy will be restored, may it happen soon God willing, but of course we do not know when and cannot predict that.   But eventually, it will happen.   Perhaps if we do what we are commanded, God will reward us with a restoration of prophecy. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

1) True David is not a tribe, but is a lineage which the Messiah must come from, so we need to know without a doubt who his descendant is for it to be the Messiah.

Not necessarily true.  When one of our Kings commits the deeds described by Maimonides, if we had any doubt about his lineage before, we will surely know that not only is he moschiach but he is descendent of David too (obviously).   So refraining from making a king or proper Jewish govt with balance of powers, because we might not know exactly who is from David and who isn't, is a big mistake.

The problem here may be in trying to pasken halacha from Tanach.  But the Talmud is the guiding light with regards to what we do and what he have to do.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

2) The source for the division of the land according to tribal affiliation is in Ezekiel 47:13--48:35.  The division of the land is described in detail after the final Temple is described in detail.  This is also why we have to know who is from which tribe.

I will be the first to admit I am no expert on Tanach, so I can only speak from limited understanding.   Are we sure this speaks of the second redemption as opposed to the first redemption from Bavel?  Even if it does, are we sure it is still applicable considering we did not maintain tribal divisions in exile?  How then can it make sense to say that we need to separate into tribes whom we actually descend from?  Are we sure we need to know who actually descends from what tribe?   It appears to me this is actually physically impossible because all the tribes mixed up except cohanim perhaps.   So even if we 'knew' who descended from whom, everyone is a mix, and there is no way for the navi to then divide up into tribes except by practical decisions not based on the metziut (reality) necessarily, but convenience and pragmatism - in that case we do not need a navi necessarily.   It may also be that intuition is a form of nevuah and through intuition we will begin to develop tribes within Israel over certain land areas (as a natural organic process amongst communities as they develop self-sufficiency - if that ever happens) and whoever is in these areas and has allegiance/social communal responsibility to a given area is a de facto member of that "tribe."  This could coincide with the state of Israel's loss of control and sovereignty over the Jews and the redemption of Jewish land into Jewish control.    We could possibly take away land from the Israelis to the Jews (and likewise from the Arabs) and maybe "tribe" delineations will develop organically.   Who says we have to hold up anything else for either this process to occur, or for a navi to do as you are saying?   I'm not convinced of that at all.

3) I believe there are some rituals for Temple purification that can only be done by priests, so the Temple can't be completed without the Levitical priesthood.  It can probably be started without them though.  Also, Ezekiel mentions the sons of Zadok, which I don't think most Levites will know they are Zadokites without prophecy.
4) I'm not saying this list MUST be the official order, but if we had to guess the approximate order then this would be my guess.  So our focus now should be on the ingathering of Israel and re-establishing the Sanhedrin.

We definitely need to focus on ingathering of the Jews and it seems like nearly every rabbi neglects this including very great rabbis.  It is a big detriment to our generation.   

Re-establishing the Sanhedrin is a worthy and lofty goal, but to actually do so will require a paradigm shift which people appear not yet ready for.   People being open to the approach of creative rabbis like Rabbi bar Hayim for instance would reflect a paradigm shift of that nature because his style and approach reflects a shifted perspective which is suitable (and actually essential) for a functioning Sanhedrin and goes hand-in-hand with how a Sanhedrin actually works, but even though many observant individuals are open to his approach and even follow his psak halacha (many people from all over the world email him with halachic shailoth), we see that the majority of the Torah world views him as "innovative" beyond the bounds of so-called "tradition."  A Sanhedrin certainly would be innovative beyond the bounds of what people view as "tradition" in this context because it will have nothing to do with the style of Judaism and rabbinate that we have had for 2000 years or so since the Sanhedrin's collapse.   The "tradition" as people see it today is tied to that galut-style Judaism, and while galut Judaism was established by and has its roots in those rabbis who either were themselves in the Sanhedrin or adopted the framework from those who were, still the conduct is much different, the roles of rabbis, the roles of religion etc etc.   It was designed as a different system, and so naturally people today rooted in that system see a Sanhedrin itself as foreign to Judaism, but moreso the role of a Sanhedrin, its powers and capabilities will be viewed as such.  Some might even suggest it's kefira or apikorsus to establish a Sanhedrin:  which shows how fallen our generation is that people would think that way.    People will have to start seeing things differently before the notion of a Sanhedrin can come to fruition.

I will elaborate further on this in another post.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The main problem as I see it is that a funtioning reconstituted Sanhedrin rolls back the clock on post-talmudic and even Talmudic Judaism.  Just to cite as an example since I am familiar with Rabbi Bar Hayim and his approach, and I think this is tied to the conscience of the Jewish nation currently, so he is a convenient example to cite.  We see in his approach an aspect of sometimes rolling back the clock on certain aharonim in the way they view issues or pasken the halacha, if it appears they are not giving the pshat (logical understanding) of prior sources the most logically/consistently, and in few rare instances, even rolling back the clock past the rishonim to the gaonim (if in a case where they basically argue) or to the Talmud itself by citing a Yerushalmi as a proof against a psak in the Bavli adopted by later authorities or as a proof for adopting a psak of a rishon with a minority opinion etc.    This type of "going back in time" so to speak is viewed with suspicion and even derision by those who attribute excessive mystical significance to the development of halachic psak in time.  It is seen as "overturning" something that to them is binding, when it isn't necessarily (in reality, speaking very generally, the Talmud is binding and the interpretations of its conclusions by the chachamim are binding.  There have been arguments in its conclusions, as to what they actually are, since the time it was sealed, but people view that certain matters have been "resolved" based on what is customarily done today or "won out" in the argument.  There is a hesitancy to reexamine sources and perhaps switch the view from one rishon to a different one etc).   

Many in today's religious world view that if something, even an opinion about a philosophical issue not even tied to halacha, became adopted by a majority of the religious Jews, or is commonly observed/believed by a majority today, then by virtue of that it is correct and unassailable.  It is as if G-d ordained that that is the halacha, and that how that particular aharon (Or Shulhan Aruch for instance) paskened is approved by the heavens and set in stone for eternity.   Paradoxically, rather than resulting in an ever-shrinking corpus of issues with room for discussion, it proliferates a great multitude of pilpulim and complex halachic minutia because concurrent with this approach is the unwillingness to decide, and in attempts to incorporate the stringecies of every shita (approach), a new method of arriving at halacha has developed.   This method assumes that not only are we incapable of making decisions (choose one rishon's opinion over the other because it makes more sense?  "Never," this method would say), but we are bound to continue on the path whereby more and more halachic decisions - by chachamim working within this newfound framework - are set in stone and never to be repealed.   The Sanhedrin not only has the power to undo past decisions, it can even undo the entire framework of Judaism and the halachic process (or at least the framework as the masses view it today) because the Sanhedrin halachically has the power to darshan (interpret through Biblical exegesis) verses from the Torah and even derive new rabbinic laws and categories etc and even deoraita obligations if I'm not mistaken.   This process (darshaning verses) of course was ended with the compilation of the Mishnayoth by Rebbe Yehuda haNasi, who compiled them in order to streamline Judaism as a response to decentralization and dispersal of rabbinic authority with the loss of Sanhedrin, and he instituted the process of Gemara specifically to replace what was lost when we lost the Sanhedrin.  The Gemara, the process of "darshaning" the mishnayoth, explaining and resolving them, in essence became a replacement Sanhedrin (in oral form at that time).  But it was mutually understood and agreed upon that the mishnayoth and tannaic literature constituted the extent of halachic drashoth on verses of Torah which had been derived up to that point, and a freezing of this process occurred whereby we used only the past derivations in the tannaic corpus, and now the rabbinic "job" was to interpret mishnayoth instead of verses.     After the sealing of the Talmud, the role of rabbis changed further into interpreting the gemara's interpretation of the mishnayoth, and of course the quasi-exegesis of mishnayoth, which characterized the style of the gemara, similarly came to an end.   This type of freezing process is essential to galut Judaism, but it is antithetical to a functioning Sanhedrin and was only created in the first place because our Sanhedrin was exiled and destroyed and the rabbis were dispersed.   It was created to be a replacement Sanhedrin.   It began as an oral system and is now a textual based replacement-sanhedrin since the Talmud was committed to writing during the time (or at the very end of the time) of the gaonim. 

Now after all the repeated 'freezing processes,' a reconstituted Sanhedrin would in essence be a thawing (I imagine to a limited degree of course, we're not really going to reinvent Judaism - but there is still a degree of thawing and new creativity involved which needs to be embraced not only by scholars but by the public as well, without whose obediance/allegiance, any 'sanhedrin' would be without authority and no sanhedrin at all).  People are generally very resistant to any perceived thawing, for many reasons including what was mentioned above.  To what extent these two concepts can coincide and coexist in a reformulated Sanhedrin (there needs to be a balance between tradition and creativity) will determine how great a paradigm shift will be needed.    A Sanhedrin with the power to darshan verses is a very awesome (and for some people frightening) thing indeed.    But the "inability to decide" and the viewing of our generation as somehow inherently mystically incapable of arriving at halachic decisions or choosing among several opinions are each notions completely antithetical to the entire enterprise of a Sanhedrin and Jewish govt.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

1) True David is not a tribe, but is a lineage which the Messiah must come from, so we need to know without a doubt who his descendant is for it to be the Messiah.

Not necessarily true.  When one of our Kings commits the deeds described by Maimonides, if we had any doubt about his lineage before, we will surely know that not only is he moschiach but he is descendent of David too (obviously).   So refraining from making a king or proper Jewish govt with balance of powers, because we might not know exactly who is from David and who isn't, is a big mistake.

The problem here may be in trying to pasken halacha from Tanach.  But the Talmud is the guiding light with regards to what we do and what he have to do.

Well the Mishneh Torah explains the Talmud, and according to the order that prescribes, the king gets anointed before the war, and the war happens before the Temple is built.  Now if Elijah anoints a son of David, that wouldn't necessarily mean people would have to believe he's the Messiah until he actually does all that the Messiah is supposed to do.  The son of David that gets anointed by the prophet wouldn't have to even be the Messiah.  The Messiah could be one of his sons.    Of course whoever it is will have to prove himself.  I don't see any contradictions between the commanded ("ideal") order based on the Talmud, the Tanach, and Maimonides' test of the true Messiah.

But that's similar to what I'm saying.  Change the bold part to read additionally, and we don't even have to be 100% sure by nevuah that he is a son of David, as we can rely on whatever the best possible information acquisition is at that time, which includes the lineage traditions that people have in their families as of today as being descendents of David.   When nevuah is established at some later time, if we erred, we can fix our mistake and change the kingship back to the son of David, or perhaps a navi will come and substantiate our initial reliance on the "hazaka" of family tree tradition by giving legitimacy to the kingly line we chose before prophecy returned, and then we'll keep that line going.

   We have a mitzvah to appoint a king in a sovereign state.  We may or may not have prophecy restored yet at a time when it is opportune to appoint a king.   We cannot let lack of prophecy or lack of Elijah prevent us from doing the mitzvah.   Similarly with regards to the Temple.   The Mishneh Torah does not say we wait until Elijah comes and only then we can build the Temple or only then the Jewish king/sovereign entity can do so.   We have the obligation in every generation to build the Temple.   It is one thing if we are physically incapable and fail, but to say that we have to wait for some kind of message from Hashem in order to begin is just the same approach in different format as the people who say we don't build it but it will fall from the sky and we wait for that instead.   It's a misunderstanding of the mitzvah. 

BTW, the role of a "king" can be more similar function to a president/prime minister depending on the govt system.   Rambam is speaking about a sovereign entity and the only type of ruler known in his time was a monarch.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

More from Rambam on Elijah and the order of end time events from Mishneh Torah: 

Excellent.  Thanks for quoting this.   I'm going to highlight some key points here that I think are especially informative for us.

Our Sages taught: "There will be no difference between the current age and the Messianic era except the emancipation from our subjugation to the gentile kingdoms." 

My gemara rabbi teaches that according to this view, our freedom from political oppression enables us to create an ethical society and only from the foundation of an ethical society is man then also free to delve fully into spiritual pursuits - the ultimate purpose of messianic era.

The simple interpretation of the prophets' words appear to imply that the war of Gog and Magog will take place at the beginning of the Messianic age. Before the war of Gog and Magog, a prophet will arise to inspire Israel to be upright and prepare their hearts, as Malachi 3:22 states: 'Behold, I am sending you Elijah.'

He will not come to declare the pure, impure, or to declare the impure, pure. He will not dispute the lineage of those presumed to be of proper pedigree, nor will he validate the pedigree of those whose lineage is presumed blemished. Rather, he will establish peace within the world as ibid. 3:24 continues: 'He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children."

Thus we see that this subject always operates on "presumption."  We cannot know for sure, but we have indications, evidence and proof as to who is or who is not from what particular lineage.  I would think it a natural conclusion to apply this equivalently to the lineage of King David.  Those who have documentation and oral tradition of being of this lineage (and such people indeed exist) will be eligible.  Otherwise, not.    And we make presumptions.   Likewise, the only way to know "for sure" for any particular case, is through a prophet, but the Rambam seems to say here that even this Elijah the Prophet will not tell us.   So we have no choice but to operate on presumption.  And this makes sense if you take Rambam's other statement less literally and consider that the reconstitution of Jewish national sovereignty needs a sovereign figure to lead it (be it, king, nasi, president, etc) under Torah leadership and this can happen before a prophet comes.   Being that this in our day DID happen before any prophet came, the onus is upon us to establish proper Jewish govt independent of nevuah.   We have failed and continue to fail to do so, (much having to do with the seculars who seized power), but in my opinion, let no one suggest that we are "incapable" or simply "waiting" to do so for when God gives us a direct sign from shamayim.  (Just like we did not wait for a direct sign or miracle from Shamayim to return home).

There are some Sages who say that Elijah's coming will precede the coming of the Mashiach. All these and similar matters cannot be definitely known by man until they occur for these matters are undefined in the prophets' words and even the wise men have no established tradition regarding these matters except their own interpretation of the verses. Therefore, there is a controversy among them regarding these matters. 

This may be his most important statement of all, and this likely informs us of why Rabbi Bar Hayim (and I'm sure others learn this way as well) does not take Rambam's other statement about appointing a king with a prophet strictly literally.   Because there may not be a prophet in that time (the time when Jewish sovereignty is reestablished) and so we must be practical in either case and appoint the govt necessary.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

All in all though, the order of events in Rambam's statements here also lines up with the order of the original post. 

That's true.  And generally I wouldn't expect him to simply be wrong.  However, due to the circumstances as he describes them above in bold, he is giving speculations, not certainty, because there are controversy among the sages about these unclear matters.   So in general, I just try to add the corrolary that these things are "lav davka" so to speak, even if giving over a general schematic.

As for learning tribal affiliation, it is possible that since we already know who some of the Levites are, the rest of the tribal affiliations will not be informed by Elijah but instead be informed by the Levites who will be able to supernaturally determine things like this through the urim and thummim.

Could be.   Or not.   I think we should definitely be open to creative ideas and scenarios like this though. 

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Very interesting thread.